England & Wales Tracing App to be released Sept 24th

[Bletchleyite]

The Scottish one has already been working well for a while. If they merge it then the million or so people in Scotland who've already downloaded it would have to download another app, and probably lose a couple of week's tracking data. It's not like that many people are crossing the border that often.

Indeed, it's the Welsh border that's more porous, and presumably as a result they decided to go with England on this one from the start. The vast amount of nothingness between Carlisle and the Central Belt really does help.

 

[bspahh]

I've sent them a message about it. Its enough for me to give up on it this evening.

It doesn't fill me with confidence with their release testing if they can't link to the document for the first click on the install procedure.

They should also have listed it as a new application on the Google Play store. At the moment there are a load of 1 star reviews, some of which are from people who have tried to download the early adopter trial version when they didn't have a code.

The correct privacy notice is now shown.

The URL in the app is https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...y-information/nhs-covid-19-app-privacy-notice

When I go to that, the URL in my browser is shown as
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...arly-adopter-trial-august-2020-privacy-notice
(including the text "early-adopter-trial") but the text for that has been updated.

 

[birchesgreen]

Well i installed the app, it told me i was in a high risk area so i closed it and got on with life.

 

[Huntergreed]

Can someone confirm, is it law to isolate if the app tells you? That seems very harsh indeed and would put me off installing it if it is true.

 

[Bantamzen]

Can someone confirm, is it law to isolate if the app tells you? That seems very harsh indeed and would put me off installing it if it is true.

The only way I can see the app telling you to isolate is if you tell it you've got all the symptoms, and this doesn't trigger a data transfer. So even if it is in law, how they'd know is anyone's guess. The only time data is triggered is if you register a positive test, and by then you already know to isolate.

 

[Huntergreed]

The only way I can see the app telling you to isolate is if you tell it you've got all the symptoms, and this doesn't trigger a data transfer. So even if it is in law, how they'd know is anyone's guess. The only time data is triggered is if you register a positive test, and by then you already know to isolate.

Is it not like the Protect Scotland app where if you've been in close proximity of someone who tested positive you're asked to isolate for 2 weeks?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only way I can see the app telling you to isolate is if you tell it you've got all the symptoms, and this doesn't trigger a data transfer. So even if it is in law, how they'd know is anyone's guess. The only time data is triggered is if you register a positive test, and by then you already know to isolate.

No, that's not correct, and would wholly negate the point - yes, it will tell you to isolate if you've been in close contact with someone who tests positive. Though it's not enforceable, as the app doesn't know who you are.

 

[Bantamzen]

Is it not like the Protect Scotland app where if you've been in close proximity of someone who tested positive you're asked to isolate for 2 weeks?

No, that's not correct, and would wholly negate the point - yes, it will tell you to isolate if you've been in close contact with someone who tests positive. Though it's not enforceable, as the app doesn't know who you are.

Sorry yes you're right, it will tell you but won't transmit that data back.

 

[The_Train]

I suppose this leads to another question then - will people actually self-isolate for 2 weeks if the app tells them to, considering only the person who sees the app will know that it has told them to do so? Or will people think 'I can't afford to have 2 weeks off work and as I feel fine I will just carry on as though the app never said anything' which surely makes it worthless having the app in the first place?

 

[MikeWM]

Can someone confirm, is it law to isolate if the app tells you? That seems very harsh indeed and would put me off installing it if it is true.

We don't know what the law from Monday is yet, as they haven't published it (surprise, surprise).

Hancock did imply this morning that an app notification wouldn't be part of the law, but I take everything he says with a pinch of salt.

Either way, assuming the app works the way we're told it does (and it probably does), no-one but you will know if the app tells you to isolate. You can even delete it if it tells you something you don't want to know! So whether it is the law or not is fairly moot - what you decide to do is up to you.

There is an issue here though - do notifications from venues work differently from people? Due to anonymity, obviously you can't be told if a *person* has tested positive, but what if a venue was marked 'infected'? If I know *which* venue was responsible, I could make an informed decision myself (eg. if I know it was cinema A, and the only time I've been there in the last month I was the only person in the screening, then I may conclude that isolation would be a bit silly).

 

[NorthOxonian]

We don't know what the law from Monday is yet, as they haven't published it (surprise, surprise).

Hancock did imply this morning that an app notification wouldn't be part of the law, but I take everything he says with a pinch of salt.

Either way, assuming the app works the way we're told it does (and it probably does), no-one but you will know if the app tells you to isolate. You can even delete it if it tells you something you don't want to know! So whether it is the law or not is fairly moot - what you decide to do is up to you.

There is an issue here though - do notifications from venues work differently from people? Due to anonymity, obviously you can't be told if a *person* has tested positive, but what if a venue was marked 'infected'? If I know *which* venue was responsible, I could make an informed decision myself (eg. if I know it was cinema A, and the only time I've been there in the last month I was the only person in the screening, then I may conclude that isolation would be a bit silly).

The venue side of things does seem to still be rather rudimental. To give one example - imagine I have breakfast in a Wetherspoons at 8am. Twelve hours later, someone goes in for a couple of pints. Yet if that latter person tests positive, I would have to self isolate (unless I'd checked in at a different venue later that day). There is no facility for leaving times to be recorded, it just defaults to midnight or when you next check in. Likewise, there's no facility for large venues which may have multiple parts - unless a multiplex cinema has a different QR code for each screen, you might be told to isolate despite never even being in the same room as someone who tests positive!

 

[MikeWM]

The venue side of things does seem to still be rather rudimental.

It is also unnecessary it seems, as the contact tracing part of the app should still cover whether you were close to the infected person (who then caused the venue to be marked 'infected').

I suppose scanning the QR code is a way of showing you are running the app and therefore don't need to leave any other contact tracing info with the venue - it doesn't seem to have a lot of purpose beyond that.

 

[SJN]

Matt Hancock said on news earlier that if you got a message on app to isolate it isn’t mandatory. Only if you get a call from track & trace or test positive.

 

[ainsworth74]

Matt Hancock said on news earlier that if you got a message on app to isolate it isn’t mandatory. Only if you get a call from track & trace or test positive.

Think we need to wait and see what the regulations actually say. This mob aren't known for their legal accuracy...

 

[seaviewer]

I tried to download the app this morning, but was told I couldn't because I don't have iOS 13. But iOS 12.4 is the up-to date version for my iphone (a 6S). Something awry here?

 

[The_Train]

I tried to download the app this morning, but was told I couldn't because I don't have iOS 13. But iOS 12.4 is the up-to date version for my iphone (a 6S). Something awry here?

I've seen a few people also suggesting that it won't download on Android systems below the Marshmallow version

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I tried to download the app this morning, but was told I couldn't because I don't have iOS 13. But iOS 12.4 is the up-to date version for my iphone (a 6S). Something awry here?

I believe that low energy bluetooth (which the app uses) only started on phones after and including the iPhone 7.

 

[MikeWM]

I tried to download the app this morning, but was told I couldn't because I don't have iOS 13. But iOS 12.4 is the up-to date version for my iphone (a 6S). Something awry here?

You need iOS 13.5 or above - earlier versions don't have the API to send the tokens that the app needs to work.

 

[seaviewer]

Mike WM: Thanks. It's not going to be very useful then?

 

[island]

Can someone confirm, is it law to isolate if the app tells you? That seems very harsh indeed and would put me off installing it if it is true.

Not yet. The app’s getting deleted from my phone the instant it becomes so.

 

[DelW]

Mike WM: Thanks. It's not going to be very useful then?

Who'd have thought it, a government in cahoots with the (ex) boss of a rather dodgy phone retailer promoting an app that needs lots of people to buy new phones

 

[The_Train]

Not yet. The app’s getting deleted from my phone the instant it becomes so.

Genuinely intrigued as to why that's the case for you?

 

[Domh245]

Mike WM: Thanks. It's not going to be very useful then?

The 6s should apparently be capable of running iOS 13.5 and greater, the 'cutoff' point is the iPhone 6 which would seem to be in small enough use by most of the population that it's not an issue

I've seen a few people also suggesting that it won't download on Android systems below the Marshmallow version

Correct, as reported in various articles it requires android 6 or higher

In both cases this is 5 year old software, which would seem a reasonable cut off as a large number of the population replace their phones every 2 years. With apple devices it's simple enough as any new iPhone within the last 5 years will be capable of running the necessary version of iOS, but android given the variety of manufacturers may be more complicated but I would expect that every phone from at least the last 3 years or so is android 6 or higher

 

[bspahh]

There is a nice summary of how the NHS contact tracing app works at https://ncase.me/contact-tracing/
This is the summary cartoon. There is a bit more detail if you click on the link

 

[NorthOxonian]

There is a nice summary of how background technology for the NHS contact tracing app at https://ncase.me/contact-tracing/

Yes, I believe our implementation has a points system. IIRC, messages are sent every five minutes, with contact at 0-2m counting for 300 points and 2-4m counting for 150. If more than 900 points are recorded from someone who tests positive, an alert is sent.

 

[43066]

The 6s should apparently be capable of running iOS 13.5 and greater, the 'cutoff' point is the iPhone 6 which would seem to be in small enough use by most of the population that it's not an issue



Correct, as reported in various articles it requires android 6 or higher

In both cases this is 5 year old software, which would seem a reasonable cut off as a large number of the population replace their phones every 2 years. With apple devices it's simple enough as any new iPhone within the last 5 years will be capable of running the necessary version of iOS, but android given the variety of manufacturers may be more complicated but I would expect that every phone from at least the last 3 years or so is android 6 or higher

It seems a bit of an oversight, though, because that’s probably still a fair number of people. Off the top of my head I know two people with “heritage” iPhones. Both are quite miserly, so unlikely to upgrade anytime soon!

When you add those people, to the total number without smartphones, and also combine with those who won’t download the app anyway, you have to wonder how many people it will actually reach.

 

[birchesgreen]

First time to use the app to sign in (at a MaccyD) didn't go that smoothly. Ninth or tenth time lucky and i was in. As i found out myself when experimenting with QR codes a few years ago they can be a bit flakey at times.

 

[Domh245]

It seems a bit of an oversight, though, because that’s probably still a fair number of people. Off the top of my head I know two people with “heritage” iPhones. Both are quite miserly, so unlikely to upgrade anytime soon!

When you add those people, to the total number without smartphones, and also combine with those who won’t download the app anyway, you have to wonder how many people it will actually reach.

It may seem like an oversight, but it's one that (for once) isn't the governments fault as that's all that the bluetooth tracing API that google/apple developed will support.

I think that it'll still reach a fair number of people, it's up to 500k on the play store. Not sure about iOS installs but I expect about the same if not more. I don't think the government expects this to be a 'big win' as a tool for managing this, so much as an 'every little helps'

 

[MikeWM]

Yes, I believe our implementation has a points system. IIRC, messages are sent every five minutes, with contact at 0-2m counting for 300 points and 2-4m counting for 150. If more than 900 points are recorded from someone who tests positive, an alert is sent.

The part I still don't quite get is what happens after someone tests positive and how that is processed. At some point someone has to say 'the keys for people who associated with this phone need to be alerted' - and given the way this is set up, the 'infected' owner of the phone has to be involved. But who does what and what safeguards are there?

 

[bramling]

Great minds think alike.

+1.

I’m not downloading it either.

Only trouble is, how long before it becomes mandatory, or de-facto mandatory?