British heritage lines which are returning to normal, post Covid-19 restrictions.

[John Luxton]

With the arrival of Freedom Day perhaps people would like to mention lines which are returning to normal normal.

Saw something from G&WR which suggested normal services from Tuesday with Rovers back

Sadly South Devon seems to be wanting to perpetuate Covid abnormal according to a posting on Facebook.

Would be nice to know where one can go mask less and on a whim rather than booking in advance which was always a pain as one had to second guess the weather.

There appears little justification in Continuing Covid abnormal on the heritage railways as pubs are going back to normal and nightclubs have now reopened.

I must say Dean Forest which I visited last Wednesday was fairly relaxed just put mask on to move to seat then take off.

 

[STINT47]

In the East Midlsnds The Ecclesbourne Valley Railway and Great Central Railwsy no longer require pre booking or masks. All stations are open and rovers are being sold.

The GCR actually opened all stations and dropped pre booking at the end of June. After that you could buy rovers from any station on the day and travel as you wished, although marks and social distancing had to remain.

 

[paul1609]

We (Kent & East Sussex) have moved to a normal timetable today with no restrictions on where you board break of journey and tickets available on the day.
Some of the precautions remain perspex screens etc. face masks are a personal decision.
Theres no on board catering basically because we need passenger numbers to recover to make it viable and dropping a catering vehicle make it possible to include Victorian Coaches with compartments that some passengers feel safer with.
The specialist catering, Wealden Pullman and Fish and Chip trains have been running already but are heavily booked.

 

[steamybrian]

The Spa Valley Railway have been running a normal service (with all stations open) for several weeks. Pre- booking not essential. Normal fares including accepting concessionary fares for those with identity cards entitling them to request discount travel.

We (Kent & East Sussex) have moved to a normal timetable today with no restrictions on where you board break of journey and tickets available on the day.
Some of the precautions remain perspex screens etc. face masks are a personal decision.
Theres no on board catering basically because we need passenger numbers to recover to make it viable and dropping a catering vehicle make it possible to include Victorian Coaches with compartments that some passengers feel safer with.
The specialist catering, Wealden Pullman and Fish and Chip trains have been running already but are heavily booked.

Thanks for the info and I will now return and join the train at Northiam as I find it more convenient
I have not travelled since the lockdown started followed by all the restrictions when the service started.

 

[WestRiding]

My favourite line the Ravenglass and Eskdale still not using the intermediate stations, still want masks, and still advance bookings only. Almost as if they want to discourage people going. Not going to book in advance for it to then rain, and be stuck at Dalegarth for a few hours. I hear the KWVR have relaxed a bit though.

 

[30907]

I hear the KWVR have relaxed a bit though.

The bar car and the full normal range of tickets have been back for a bit.

 

[John Luxton]

My favourite line the Ravenglass and Eskdale still not using the intermediate stations, still want masks, and still advance bookings only. Almost as if they want to discourage people going. Not going to book in advance for it to then rain, and be stuck at Dalegarth for a few hours. I hear the KWVR have relaxed a bit though.

Only visited R&ER a few times but I am surprised - do they still operate a lot of open stock. I know FWHR have built some new enclosed carriages at Boston Lodge - but I always thought one of the things about the R&ER was being able to ride in open air carriages.

I have never been able to get around this no intermediate stops and round trips from one end only practiced by so many lines.

Does anyone know who came up with this idea?

As it has deprived all heritage lines that used their model (and that is most) of the credibility as anything more than fairground rides.

Why didn't they operate as per Network Rail at least?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As it has deprived all heritage lines that used their model (and that is most) of the credibility as anything more than fairground rides.

That is exactly what they are. They are not transport operations. They sell experiences, not journeys.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if at least one of them stuck with that.

 

[Dai Corner]

Only visited R&ER a few times but I am surprised - do they still operate a lot of open stock. I know FWHR have built some new enclosed carriages at Boston Lodge - but I always thought one of the things about the R&ER was being able to ride in open air carriages.

I have never been able to get around this no intermediate stops and round trips from one end only practiced by so many lines.

Does anyone know who came up with this idea?

As it has deprived all heritage lines that used their model (and that is most) of the credibility as anything more than fairground rides.

Why didn't they operate as per Network Rail at least?

If your risk assessment determines that a maximum number of passengers can be carried while remaining as 'Covid-safe' as reasonably practicable you can't have people getting on and off at intermediate stations, in case you exceed that maximum.

 

[DB]

That is exactly what they are. They are not transport operations. They sell experiences, not journeys.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if at least one of them stuck with that.

A number of them are used by people out walking or exploring towns / villages on the line. What would they gain by turning away this business?

If your risk assessment determines that a maximum number of passengers can be carried while remaining as 'Covid-safe' as reasonably practicable you can't have people getting on and off at intermediate stations, in case you exceed that maximum.

There are now no legal restrictions - they can do what they like if they choose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If your risk assessment determines that a maximum number of passengers can be carried while remaining as 'Covid-safe' as reasonably practicable you can't have people getting on and off at intermediate stations, in case you exceed that maximum.

Well, you can. Without wishing to sideline another thread to it, there is no reason they could not operate a policy of compulsory reservation which allowed for intermediate stops.

The reason they haven't is that it's not their core market.

 

[Dai Corner]

A number of them are used by people out walking or exploring towns / villages on the line. What would they gain by turning away this business?



There are now no legal restrictions - they can do what they like if they choose.

That's why I said 'your risk assessment' rather than 'the law'.

 

[DB]

That's why I said 'your risk assessment' rather than 'the law'.

There's now no need for them to have 'risk assessments' which are financially ruinous to their income - there are now no rules on capacity limits so they can operate up to full capacuty if they want - as network rail operators are mostly doing (in practice, they've been doing so on some trains for quite some time).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's now no need for them to have 'risk assessments' which are financially ruinous to their income - there are now no rules on capacity limits so they can operate up to full capacuty if they want - as network rail operators are mostly doing (in practice, they've been doing so on some trains for quite some time).

There is simply because their customers - many of whom are older and more vulnerable - will demand it.

 

[DB]

There is simply because their customers - many of whom are older and more vulnerable - will demand it.

In which case they'll potentially lose a load of income by turning families away over the summer holidays becuase they are "full" - their choice, but no justification if any then complain about reduced income.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In which case they'll potentially lose a load of income by turning families away over the summer holidays becuase they are "full" - their choice, but no justification if any then complain about reduced income.

Most families also want to make a simple return journey over the full line on most lines. The custom they will be turning away is very small in the case of most lines.

To most, it is an experience, not a mode of transport.

 

[DB]

Most families also want to make a simple return journey over the full line on most lines. The custom they will be turning away is very small in the case of most lines.

To most, it is an experience, not a mode of transport.

If they are carrying on restricting loadings (during the summer holidays, with travel abroad being difficult) then they are likely to be turning people away - including those who want to travel over the full line.

 

[John Luxton]

That is exactly what they are. They are not transport operations. They sell experiences, not journeys.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if at least one of them stuck with that.

One company which operates two lines in Wales seems to be very much behind the Experience Market even though one of their lines links two Network Rail routes. There was a lot of inter station traffic, yet still they have gone for experiences.

It is very disappointing when back in the 1980s much publicity was made of them linking two sections of the then BR network and even carried Red Star Parcels.

Perhaps there is a market to cater for experiences but a basic service of at least two normal (first / last?) trains should operate between all stations each day. Otherwise the "experience market" will attract the attention of HMRC and VAT.

There is simply because their customers - many of whom are older and more vulnerable - will demand it.

But are customers demanding it? Onerous covid restrictions are having the opposite effect with some people. Obviously some heritage lines realise this and appear keen to be back to normal ASAP and much credit to these.

If your risk assessment determines that a maximum number of passengers can be carried while remaining as 'Covid-safe' as reasonably practicable you can't have people getting on and off at intermediate stations, in case you exceed that maximum.

But why should a heritage line have a different risk assessment to Network Rail - it still carries passengers and may very well carry fewer passengers than a Network Rail train so should be its very nature be much safer and less riskier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But are customers demanding it? Onerous covid restrictions are having the opposite effect with some people. Obviously some heritage lines realise this and appear keen to be back to normal ASAP and much credit to these.

Onerous restrictions yes, but there's nothing particularly onerous for most users of what the railways are doing. What people want is a table or compartment for their family group for the full return journey. I reckon people who don't want that are fewer than 10% of customers. intermediate stations are part of the "feel" of the experience, the vast majority do not use them.

 

[John Luxton]

Onerous restrictions yes, but there's nothing particularly onerous for most users of what the railways are doing. What people want is a table or compartment for their family group for the full return journey. I reckon people who don't want that are fewer than 10% of customers. intermediate stations are part of the "feel" of the experience, the vast majority do not use them.

But we are not always talking intermediate stations here. There are lines which have only allowed journeys from one end and not terminal to terminal even though there could be quite a large village or town at the "other end". I ahve seen comments in various places about this. As for group travel - unfortunately Covid rules have discriminated against those that travel on their own. I am just glad I was a member of a number of societies and bale to claim travel privs as paying 2x return fare is not really on.

 

[Djgr]

One company which operates two lines in Wales seems to be very much behind the Experience Market even though one of their lines links two Network Rail routes. There was a lot of inter station traffic, yet still they have gone for experiences.

It is very disappointing when back in the 1980s much publicity was made of them linking two sections of the then BR network and even carried Red Star Parcels.

Perhaps there is a market to cater for experiences but a basic service of at least two normal (first / last?) trains should operate between all stations each day. Otherwise the "experience market" will attract the attention of HMRC and VAT.



But are customers demanding it? Onerous covid restrictions are having the opposite effect with some people. Obviously some heritage lines realise this and appear keen to be back to normal ASAP and much credit to these.


But why should a heritage line have a different risk assessment to Network Rail - it still carries passengers and may very well carry fewer passengers than a Network Rail train so should be its very nature be much safer and less riskier.

Freedom Day hasn't hit Wales yet but you are correct; the Health and Safety zealots have reemerged as COVID doomsters.

 

[Cowley]

I think that’s probably about as far as we’ll get with this before being dragged down yet another mask wormhole…
Let’s just stick to providing information on what lines are doing what in this thread from here everyone.

You have to remember that people will look at this for information (including people that aren’t members of the forum) and it would be good if we could just do that as it’ll be far more useful.

Thank you.

 

[yorkie]

(Just to reiterate, this thread is to discuss what operators are doing, not whether people think masks are effective or not; there are other threads for that!)

My favourite line the Ravenglass and Eskdale still not using the intermediate stations, still want masks, and still advance bookings only. Almost as if they want to discourage people going. Not going to book in advance for it to then rain, and be stuck at Dalegarth for a few hours. I hear the KWVR have relaxed a bit though.

It says:

Frequently asked questions

Check out our FAQ and pre-arrival information to help with your planning and make your visit more enjoyable to us at the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway on the Western Lake District Coast.

ravenglass-railway.co.uk

• Please consider wearing a face covering in busy and enclosed areas.

The question I'd have is whether or not any heritage operators are mandating masks as a condition of travel; if any are, it would be useful to know. Some people may want to specifically visit them, while others may want to avoid them. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs in this thread, but just to get the information so that those of us who are fussed (either way!) can make an informed choice

So far I am not aware of any that mandate face coverings...

 

[John Luxton]

The question I'd have is whether or not any heritage operators are mandating masks as a condition of travel; if any are, it would be useful to know. Some people may want to specifically visit them, while others may want to avoid them. I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs in this thread, but just to get the information so that those of us who are fussed (either way!) can make an informed choice

So far I am not aware of any that mandate face coverings...

South Devon Railway is very close to mandating it - it was spotting one of their notices on FB that led me to starting this thread. (3) Facebook

Crich Tramway is mandating it Covid-19-Up-date-Easing-of-Restrictions-1.pdf (tramway.co.uk)

 

[Journeyman]

I have never been able to get around this no intermediate stops and round trips from one end only practiced by so many lines.

It makes it much easier to control and monitor the number of people on board, which railways have been obliged to do under COVID guidelines. Unfortunately, in many cases where you can only board at one end, it's been the end which doesn't integrate with local public transport, like Alresford and Sheffield Park, and that's been really stupid.

Does anyone know who came up with this idea?

Many railways have adopted guidelines from the Heritage Railways Association, for consistency.

As it has deprived all heritage lines that used their model (and that is most) of the credibility as anything more than fairground rides.

They've never claimed to be anything else.

Why didn't they operate as per Network Rail at least?

Because they're a different business altogether.

 

[paul1609]

It makes it much easier to control and monitor the number of people on board, which railways have been obliged to do under COVID guidelines. Unfortunately, in many cases where you can only board at one end, it's been the end which doesn't integrate with local public transport, like Alresford and Sheffield Park, and that's been really stupid.

Many railways have adopted guidelines from the Heritage Railways Association, for consistency.

They've never claimed to be anything else.

Because they're a different business altogether.

The operations were based on the HRA guidance that had been approved by the ORR. The ORR made it clear that they would not hesitate to shut down any heritage railway that was operating in an unsafe way.
To be successful for the government grants you had to show that you were maximising your income during covid operations. In our case pre covid 84% of our passengers join at one of the terminal stations. It was a no brainer decision tbh.

 

[JonathanH]

Unfortunately, in many cases where you can only board at one end, it's been the end which doesn't integrate with local public transport, like Alresford and Sheffield Park, and that's been really stupid.

The end with more passenger facilities and operational advantages, not to mention car parking?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The end with more passenger facilities and operational advantages, not to mention car parking?

Exactly. They are day-out experiences, mostly attended by families/groups by car. They are not public transport operations (though some of them can secondarily be used that way, though the timetables often make them not that useful for that purpose). Think of them as a museum that happens to include moving trains rather than just static exhibits.

Does that mean the VAT exemption should be reviewed? Possibly.

I bet the WHR/Ffestiniog's marketing of specific journey experiences is working fairly well for them, for example. The bus does a better job of linking Blaenau and Porthmadog if you want a public transport journey between them.

 

[paul1609]

The end with more passenger facilities and operational advantages, not to mention car parking?

Indeed I did a lot of research on people arriving at heritage railways by public transport for an extension business case. I only looked at the southeast but the biggest flow was the Isle of Wight steam railway with 8% at Smallbrook Junction. None of the others were at 5% of total passengers. ( this did preceed the bluebell getting to East Grinstead.)

 

[DarloRich]

Such wibble. If you want to travel on a puffer you follow the rules of the provider or don't go. These railways need your support. Go, even if you have to follow what in your view are silly rules. If you dont go now they wont be there for you when you do want to go.

We have been on two very different preserved railways recently: NYMR and Avon Valley.

Both ran very similar arrangements: You book specific seats on specific trains and travel the length of the line. You wear a face mask when moving around inside or on the train but not at your seat. I kept mine on whilst on the platform as it was easier. Catering was available on the trains, shops and cafes were open. The toilets on and off the train were open. Both railways offered a choice of compartments or tables. It was quite easy, relaxing and enjoyable. Both trains we went on were well loaded but the NYMR services were less busy than I would expect ( although it was a wet day)

The NYMR actually ran two trains. A Pickering > Whitby "express" that didn't obviously pick up at intermediate stations and a "local" Pickering > Grosmont that did

Were there some additional rules? Yes. Could you run around as if you own the place? No. It was slightly different to "normal" but not inconveniently so. It is a bit of PITA to book in advance but it is hardly hard. if you cant cope with that the modern world will be hard work. We had a nice day out and hardly noticed the covid rules. You could even stick your head out of the train!

BTW: I am an English Heritage member, I didn't know they ran trains