European Sleepers - What routes would be feasible?

[Peter Kelford]

The European equivalent to this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/is-there-demand-for-more-sleeper-services.207183/

The business case in the UK only for sleeper services would appear weak at present as most major city pairs are too close to each other to be viable, save perhaps for some exceptions. Whilst OBB has undoubtedly started to capture the potential of its part of Europe, what sorts of routes would be viable in Europe as a whole, notably France, Spain, Italy and Northern Europe.

For a meaningful discussion, I think it would be really helpful to list:
a) the sleeper routes which already exist in Europe
b) the routes which have recently existed but have stopped due to lack of demand
c) some gaps you identify in those routes

a] Relevant to the region in question:

https://www.europeentrain.ch/fileadmin/user_upload_europamitdemzug/Europa_Nacht.pdf

N.B. This map does not take into account frequency (there are some seasonal once-weekly trains for example which are inconsistently marked, some missing, some marked, others marked as all year round)

b] Some routes like Paris-Nice, but unfortunately I can't seem to find anything more than anecdotal evidence.

c] It would appear as if the Western half of Europe is underserved by sleepers, routes like Paris - Barcelona are also viable.

 

[JonathanH]

The European equivalent to this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/is-there-demand-for-more-sleeper-services.207183/

The business case in the UK only for sleeper services would appear weak at present as most major city pairs are too close to each other to be viable, save perhaps for some exceptions. Whilst OBB has undoubtedly started to capture the potential of its part of Europe, what sorts of routes would be viable in Europe as a whole, notably France, Spain, Italy and Northern Europe.

For a meaningful discussion, I think it would be really helpful to list:
a) the sleeper routes which already exist in Europe
b) the routes which have recently existed but have stopped due to lack of demand
c) some gaps you identify in those routes

Is there such a list available? Otherwise this thread will be similar to this one you started two months ago https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-return-of-the-sleeper.205101/#post-4607918 with the same conclusions.

 

[Ianno87]

b) the routes which have recently existed but have stopped due to lack of demand

There's "lack of demand" but also "demand exits, but lack of interest from the operator in developing the route, replacing the stock and/or improving the customer experience"

 

[RT4038]

There's "lack of demand" but also "demand exits, but lack of interest from the operator in developing the route, replacing the stock and/or improving the customer experience"

But I expect that the 'lack of interest from the operator in developing the route' will be because 'demand exists, but not in sufficient quantity and prepared to pay sufficiently high fares to pay for replacing the stock and/or improving the customer experience'.

I suspect that the OBB will be using some funny accounting to show their sleeping expansion as being worthwhile, and at some time (such as a budget crunch) this will be exposed. Bit like CityNightLine of 20 years earlier?

 

[dutchflyer]

Probably best to keep this for West-EUR only. In the east, think of Ukrayna etc. there are still dozens and dozens more of nighttrains-in fact nearly all long-dist. trains are formed as such.
The nr of such existing trains in West-EUR is now very small and most that seem to do best are in 1 country (or 2 that were 1-CZ+SK).
@b: the nr. of former overnight routes is too large to mention here, think alone of FR were the speedy TGV has replaced dozens of them. Same for Spain in lesser numbers.
Comparison with the past and proposals to revive forget, that the distance covered used to be much smaller, to maybe just 300 km.
IF there is sufficient demand its most likely again in 1 country, as on a same distance INternational traffic tends to be just 25/30% of that demand.
I for myself dont see too much in it all-those who are very price-sensitive will use the long-dist bus (as we call it, coach is a traincar), think of the FLIXbus that has opened succesfully many routes. And national railways here mostly seem unable to offer nighttrains that are both appealing and not overcostly-to either the user or the taxpayer.

 

[30907]

For a meaningful discussion, I think it would be really helpful to list:
a) the sleeper routes which already exist in Europe
b) the routes which have recently existed but have stopped due to lack of demand
c) some gaps you identify in those routes

Is there such a list available? Otherwise this thread will be similar to this one you started two months ago https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-return-of-the-sleeper.205101/#post-4607918 with the same conclusions.

That was or developed into a thread about services from the UK/Lille. AIUI this is more general.
Pre-covid map (not all those shown have resumed):
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nachtzug#/media/Datei:Map_night_trains_in_europe.png

Known developments in Western/Northern Europe:
Nightjet expansion to Brussels/Amsterdam (Dec 2020)
2-3 years away, recent separate threads:
2 routes South from Sweden towards Berlin and Cologne/Brussels
Nightjet Vienna and Berlin to Paris, joining at Mannheim/Frankfurt

Speculation from me:
NJ using the stock of the Paris trajn on a 4-day cycle to operate Paris-Nice and -Barcelona (?Madrid) splitting at Avignon-Ville.
also NJ expanding existing routes through Germany using capacity on legs of the Paris train - Zurich-Amsterdam perhaps?
ISTR NJ mentioning Zurich-Barcelona.

Obvious gaps:
1. East-West through Germany - Cologne/Amsterdam (and Zurich?) to Warsaw/Prague.
I would love to see a through sleeper Cologne/Amsterdam to Prague via Linz - the (CD) one from Zurich seems to do OK so that might be realistically possible.
I can't see how to serve Warsaw sensibly though - you could do it economically using a Night-IC across Germany and the Berlin-Warsaw express, but the timings at Warsaw dont work

Like dutchflyer Central/Eastern Europe isn't somewhere I feel able to comment on.

 

[MarcVD]

Would Lille - Brussels - Luxemburg - Basel - Milano - Roma stand a chance ?

 

[30907]

Would Lille - Brussels - Luxemburg - Basel - Milano - Roma stand a chance ?

Given that Paris-Roma hasn't survived, I doubt it.
The problem is that sleepers these days have to be independent trains/substantial portions of trains, or you have to have a "carrier train" (the German is "Traegerzug") which is profitable and can "carry" the odd coaches.
It will be interesting to see how Brussels-Wien develops, but I have a suspicion that without political encouragement the market isn't quite big enough - and Brussels picks up London traffic, whereas London-Rome would naturally go via Paris (oops!).
Amsterdam-Brussels-Milan might work?

 

[James James]

No idea how profitable the routes will be, but the SBB - in collaboration with OeBB - are working on night train routes out of Switzerland (to begin in the next few years apparently). That's on top of expansion on the Zurich to Hamburg, Berlin and Prague routes.

 

[JonasB]

SJ has mentioned that they are interested in running night trains Stockholm-Trondheim as soon as the line between Trondheim and the border is electrified.

 

[popeter45]

how would Paris-Brussles-Koln-Hamburg/Berlin fair?
i know the Moscow sleeper already does Paris-Berlin but only once a week and a different route

 

[JonasB]

how would Paris-Brussles-Koln-Hamburg/Berlin fair?
i know the Moscow sleeper already does Paris-Berlin but only once a week and a different route

There are rumours that ÖBB will start Paris-Berlin soon.

 

[Peter Kelford]

For a meaningful discussion, I think it would be really helpful to list:
a) the sleeper routes which already exist in Europe
b) the routes which have recently existed but have stopped due to lack of demand
c) some gaps you identify in those routes

Yes indeed. I ran out of time yesterday before going to make breakfast. See the original post.

 

[30907]

how would Paris-Brussles-Koln-Hamburg/Berlin fair?
i know the Moscow sleeper already does Paris-Berlin but only once a week and a different route

It's a logical and historic route - IIRC Belgium became an issue re track access charges which was one reason for DB re-routing it further south.
If Paris-Strasbourg-Berlin is a success, yours might be a diversion/expansion of it
However, DB's Deutschlandtakt interval timetable proposes a 2-hourly Brussels-Berlin ICE which will undermine the market for a night train.

 

[James James]

No idea if it will be profitable (but probably) - the SBB just secured some rolling stock, which will apparently serve Zurich-Cologne-Amsterdam from 2021. The stock is publicly confirmed, the route isn't. (Zurich-Rome and Zurich-Barcelona look like the next most likely routes.)

 

[30907]

No idea if it will be profitable (but probably) - the SBB just secured some rolling stock, which will apparently serve Zurich-Cologne-Amsterdam from 2021. The stock is publicly confirmed, the route isn't. (Zurich-Rome and Zurich-Barcelona look like the next most likely routes.)

SBB have apparently said they don't want to leave it all to OeBB. They were part of the original CityNightLine consortium but pulled out... Wonder where they will find the stock?

 

[jamesontheroad]

SBB have apparently said they don't want to leave it all to OeBB. They were part of the original CityNightLine consortium but pulled out... Wonder where they will find the stock?

I was just reading on the Swedish Railway Club's "postvagnen" forum (if you don't read Swedish, open the link in Google Chrome then hit "translate") that it will be coming from the German open access company RDC who currently operate the Alpen-Sylt express.

 

[Nick_C]

I can't see how to serve Warsaw sensibly though - you could do it economically using a Night-IC across Germany and the Berlin-Warsaw express, but the timings at Warsaw dont work

Have the Berlin-Warsaw timings changed recently? Pre-2016 they used to do exactly that, a Night-IC Cologne-Berlin which then split, half being attached to the morning Warszawa express and the other half going down to Prague. It worked very well when I did it a few months before DB canned all of their night services. The awkward bit was the connection at Cologne with the trains to/from Brussels, with about 2 hours to wait in both directions.

 

[James James]

I was just reading on the Swedish Railway Club's "postvagnen" forum (if you don't read Swedish, open the link in Google Chrome then hit "translate") that it will be coming from the German open access company RDC who currently operate the Alpen-Sylt express.

It's also all over Swiss media - apparently they'll not be the same trains as on Alpen-Sylt because the SBB trains are supposed to be air conditioned?

Öffentlicher Verkehr - SBB mieten Nachtzüge bei US-Firma – ab nächstem Jahr sollen sie nach Amsterdam rollen

Der Ausbau des Nachtzug-Netzes geht voran. Dabei setzt die Bahn auf gemietetes Rollmaterial – und die finanzielle Unterstützung durch die Politik.

www.luzernerzeitung.ch

Nachtzug nach Amsterdam: SBB bereiten Comeback für Ende 2021 vor

Die SBB planen ein grosses Comeback des Nachtzugs. Bereits Ende nächsten Jahres sollen die Wagons aus der Schweiz Richtung Amsterdam anrollen.

www.nau.ch

SBB mieten Nachtzüge – ab 2021 sollen sie nach Amsterdam rollen

Der Ausbau des Nachtzug-Netzes geht voran. Dabei setzt die Bahn auf gemietetes Rollmaterial – und die finanzielle Unterstützung durch die Politik.

www.watson.ch

The contract is until 2024, apparently that points to this stock being an interim solution until the new Nightjet hardware arrives.

 

[30907]

Have the Berlin-Warsaw timings changed recently? Pre-2016 they used to do exactly that, a Night-IC Cologne-Berlin which then split, half being attached to the morning Warszawa express and the other half going down to Prague. It worked very well when I did it a few months before DB canned all of their night services. The awkward bit was the connection at Cologne with the trains to/from Brussels, with about 2 hours to wait in both directions.

You are quite right, it was the last attempt to make the Jan Kiepura viable, IIRC involving a trip round one of the Rings to attach the BWE set at Wannsee, but it slowed it down considerably.
It is still possible, but 1133 into Warsaw and 1600 out isn't exactly attractive, and the Night-ICE as it now is takes about 7 hours to cross Germany.
If you could make it to Rzepin or Poznan earlier and attach to a PKP internal service it would be better - no good for Berlin, but Cologne-Berlin won't sustain a sleeper anyway.

The contract is until 2024, apparently that points to this stock being an interim solution until the new Nightjet hardware arrives.

On the basis of the thread in Drehscheibe-online, that is indeed the plan.
The trains from Zurich (Amsterdam, then Barcelona and Rome, also traditional routes) are being subsidised by the government apparently from a carbon tax. Which explains why SBB wants/needs to provide some stock.

 

[StephenHunter]

Lille or Calais seem an obvious gap for starting something; not everyone will want to go to Paris.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Lille or Calais seem an obvious gap for starting something; not everyone will want to go to Paris.

I would guess Lille as the population catchment there would be sufficient to add some additional passengers to the trains.

 

[30907]

I would guess Lille as the population catchment there would be sufficient to add some additional passengers to the trains.

Lille would be worth it as a stop on an Amsterdam-Brussels-Nice or Barcelona, despite the added cost of the reversal, but I doubt if the conurbation itself, even with London added, would sustain the modern version of the Flanders-Riviera. But I'm not sure who would be prepared to test the market.

 

[Austriantrain]

Lille would be worth it as a stop on an Amsterdam-Brussels-Nice or Barcelona, despite the added cost of the reversal, but I doubt if the conurbation itself, even with London added, would sustain the modern version of the Flanders-Riviera. But I'm not sure who would be prepared to test the market.

The main problem with reversal in Lille would probably be the restricted capacity at Lille Europe, whereas using Lille Flandres would be unattractive for connections from London. It is a pity that a through station under Flandres (as they did in Antwerp) was not built.

 

[jfisher21]

London - Ebbsfleet - Lille - Brussels - Frankfurt Airport - Frankfurt Hbf - Nurnberg - Ingolstat Hbf - Munich sounds good. Maybe a portion for Vienna and a portion for Berlin.

 

[Memma]

I love that Brussels is starting to get night trains again with the NJ and the Swedish train announced. So much easier to connect from London with no station change and no dragging bags across Paris. I wonder if the same thing could be done in Lille for southbound services to Italy (and if they can be returned Spain) starting with the Thello if it ever comes back - or if you could split the Thello and have a section that runs Venice - Milan - Dijon - Lille - Brussels - Amsterdam and a second section to Paris?

It would be interesting to see RZD re-route their Paris - Moscow sleeper to depart Paris Nord and run via Lille, Brussels and Cologne rather than east which would make for much easier Eurostar connections!

 

[peteb]

Lille or Calais seem an obvious gap for starting something; not everyone will want to go to Paris.

My vote would go for a Calais Frethun starting point. Not only could that form an interchange with Eurostar but could attract those living in the south of the UK who could drive there via Eurotunnel or ferry and then park there for free. A 9pm-ish departure time could support routes including Calais-Lille-Cote D'Azur or Calais-Hendaye or Port Bou. Not everyone has the time to struggle across both London and Paris via tube/Eurostar/metro to catch the existing overnights from there.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Edward, the editor of the website Rail Guide Europe and currently employee of BahnTouristikExpress / Rail Development Corporation has written a blog post saying the Alpen-Sylt Nacht Express has been successful, and that plans are being made to expand service next year, with new routes and more types of accommodation.

Europe by Train with Inside help

Website about European rail travel. Helping smart rail travellers travel cheaper and better.

railguideeurope.com

 

[Speed43125]

Edward, the editor of the website Rail Guide Europe and currently employee of BahnTouristikExpress / Rail Development Corporation has written a blog post saying the Alpen-Sylt Nacht Express has been successful, and that plans are being made to expand service next year, with new routes and more types of accommodation.

Europe by Train with Inside help

Website about European rail travel. Helping smart rail travellers travel cheaper and better.

railguideeurope.com

Interesting stuff, thanks for that.

Isn't the humble Couchette wagon a wonderful invention?

 

[Memma]

There are some very interesting leisure routes emerging in Europe! I read somewhere Snälltåget are launching a similar service to the Alpen-Sylt Nacht Express but over a much longer route running all the way to Stockholm and RejioJet's Prague - Rijeka (which was so popular its frequency was re-introduced)...

Is there any reason that Eurotunnel car carriers couldn't run further afield? I can see the potential for a US style Auto Train with loading at the Eurotunnel terminal in Folkestone running to Spain, to Italy and other holiday destinations - passengers could travel on existing Eurotunnel trains (In busses as happens on the VSOE if necessary) through the tunnel (eliminating the need to build rolling stock passes the tunnel safety requirements) and change to sleeping cars at Calais Frethun whilst the motorail carriages are shunted to the train.