Eurostar: Juxtaposed Controls, Customs, Regulation from 01/01/2021

[Starmill]

I thought it would be useful to create this thread to allow the Duty Free discussion here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/duty-free-to-the-eu-is-back.209127/ to remain on topic.

This thread is to discuss all aspects of the way Eurostar operations will change from 1 January 2021 following the end of the transition period.

Juxtaposed Controls
The Le Toquet Agreement was recently renewed and extended to include the Dutch government. These should continue.

At the Schengen Border, Entry-Exit Checks will be made. Presumably this requires a passport to be stamped. Questions about destination, journey purpose and length of stay are likely to be asked. Visas will not immediately be required in most cases for UK citizens travelling for tourism, although once rolled out ETIAS authorisation will be.

Customs
A customs border with be erected, presumably there will need to be new checks at Eurostar's terminals.

Regulation
I haven't been able to find reliable sources. The Withdrawal Agreement doesn't seem to protect relevant licences but it's beyond me to understand. One source suggests that a separate deal is in place to continue to allow the relevant passenger train licences to be accepted.

 

[biko]

Good idea to have a separate thread about this. I was about to reply on the other thread that customs are not juxtaposed to my knowledge, which makes it interesting to see how Eurostar will cope with it at the open stations in the EU.

Customs checks do already exist in theory as there are limits within the customs union but these are so high normal people won’t need to consider declaring something. If I remember correctly, one should contact customs if needed to declare something so nobody will ever do it. However, when the rules change, limits will be much lower and declaring will be needed in many more cases.

So I wonder if they will change the treaty for juxtaposed checks (or isn’t it needed?) and if so, how that will be in time. Or will they just expect that there will be no significant imports from the UK to the EU by Eurostar? At St Pancras, it is not that difficult as there is some space for customs checks and I seem to remember some existing customs booths are already there.

 

[Starmill]

One of the things I am concerned about is the time it will take to enter the Schengen area in London when the border guards are conducting entry checks from a third country. The terminal isn't exactly large and 30 minutes last check in may not be long enough to get everyone through security, exit and the new entry checks. Eurostar then face the unenviable choice between delaying a train, having a train leaving a significant number of passengers behind, and bringing forward the time check in closes.

Of course, numbers will likely be enormously depressed in early January and given the Covid-19 situation. But Eurostar have had trains with almost 900 passengers travelling in the past, and have had two services departing within the same half hour.

 

[biko]

One of the things I am concerned about is the time it will take to enter the Schengen area in London when the border guards are conducting entry checks from a third country. The terminal isn't exactly large and 30 minutes last check in may not be long enough to get everyone through security, exit and the new entry checks. Eurostar then face the unenviable choice between delaying a train, having a train leaving a significant number of passengers behind, and bringing forward the time check in closes.

Of course, numbers will likely be enormously depressed in early January and given the Covid-19 situation. But Eurostar have had trains with almost 900 passengers travelling in the past, and have had two services departing within the same half hour.

I agree this will be challenging, as in my experience it now already sometimes is (or at least was before Covid). I entered the queue 40 minutes before departure and the staff were already giving the impression that I was late and should hurry up. If the checks become longer they should maybe consider to time the trains such that there are no departures just after each other. Changing the check-in time would reduce the advantage of Eurostar compared to flying.

However, what additional checks will be needed? Passports are already checked so it will be merely a case of stamping and a check of visa. I would imagine the visa validity would just show up on the computer when the passport is checked, so that should not take much more time

 

[alex397]

Probably a good thing, for Eurostar themselves at least, that Ashford and Ebbsfleet have been ‘temporarily’ closed then. This would increase costs further at those stations.

It just sounds to me that Eurostar is continuing to become a less attractive option.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I trained as an architect, and I remember a representative of the St Pancras International project team giving us a presentation about the redevelopment of the station. Even then it seemed blindingly obvious to me that the Eurostar departure area was not only too small to accommodate any significant growth (or, as we now expect, longer wait times) - but that the physical arrangement of the station made it almost impossible to cheaply expand it.

We can expect longer wait times at customs and immigration, that much is clear. Therefore the queuing space between security and the controls has to accommodate more people.

Referring to the drawing below ("north" is to the right)... as of now it's tight in the departure lounge - you pass the departure controls and are almost immediately level with the east-west "aisle" through the departure lounge from which the 3 north-facing and 3 south-facing ramps climb up to the platforms.

You can probably make more space in the departure lounge by either losing the business premier lounge or some of the shops facing the public arcade (numbers 17a/b/c/d, 32, 33, 34, 35 etc). But I can't see a simple solution to extending the queueing space for departures.

(Arrivals might be easier... that's a very large hall at the base of the ramps which could easily be tensa-barriered up for arrival checks).

 

[smid]

One of the things I am concerned about is the time it will take to enter the Schengen area in London when the border guards are conducting entry checks from a third country.

I think you might be making an assumption here. Some sort of agreement either between UK and EU, or Belgium and France, is probably needed for this arrangement to continue. I suspect there will be no Schengen area in the UK anymore, it needs at least goodwill and probably more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you might be making an assumption here. Some sort of agreement either between UK and EU, or Belgium and France, is probably needed for this arrangement to continue. I suspect there will be no Schengen area in the UK anymore, it needs at least goodwill and probably more.

Is that not the Le Toquet agreement which post 1 refers to as being renewed?

 

[smid]

Is that not the Le Toquet agreement which post 1 refers to as being renewed?

I didn't realise that is what it covered. I've been keeping away from the consequences of Brexit. Though to be fair, UK has recently decided to renage on agreements, so it all could be up in the air.

 

[Starmill]

All I know for sure is that Theresa May renewed the treaty in early 2018 by agreement with the French Government, despite opposition from some French Ministers. The UK made a significant financial contribution as part of this, which was pretty well the only way that it was going to be agreed to.

If this legal basis were not retained for any reason I imagine that Eurostar would have no way for passengers to lawfully enter the Schengen area and would therefore have to cease running.

 

[smid]

I did regularly travel between Waterloo and Brussels about 2001-2003 , so I remember the old checks as they used go. I don't remember Belgium ever checking anything, I got pulled over and luggage rifled on the way into Waterloo about four times, and when there was a presence it was with sniffer dogs.

Since we're the untrusted country now, I expect a lot more checking in for potential smuggling inwards to countries, and in the post gates part of the Eurostar area in Brussels.

 

[JonathanP]

(Arrivals might be easier... that's a very large hall at the base of the ramps which could easily be tensa-barriered up for arrival checks).

Looking at that floor plan it seems crazy. It's an area almost as large as departures, which is almost completely empty of equipment and 99% of the time empty of people, I'm not sure what it could ever be used for. The UKG would never take the risk of doing immigration checks on arrival, and customs check areas at airports are little different to what Eurostar has now.

I wonder if the original intention was to have a second depature lounge + direct exit from the platforms, or if there are some security requirements we don't know about like the ability to 'hold' an entire trainload of people whilst also having the train and platform empty.

 

[smid]

If this legal basis were not retained for any reason I imagine that Eurostar would have no way for passengers to lawfully enter the Schengen area and would therefore have to cease running.

Doesn't the treaty (if you are referring Le Toquet) refer to foreign passport control operating inside another country? If it that didn't work, it could easily work with the passport control on the far end, it does not stop people entering the Schengen area. There appears to be two different usages of "Schengen area" in this thread, in this quote it refers to 27 nations of the EU. In another post it refers to the post Schengen passport control checks area inside St Pancras.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I wonder if the original intention was to have a second depature lounge + direct exit from the platforms, or if there are some security requirements we don't know about like the ability to 'hold' an entire trainload of people whilst also having the train and platform empty.

Zombies?

 

[Starmill]

Doesn't the treaty (if you are referring Le Toquet) refer to foreign passport control operating inside another country? If it that didn't work, it could easily work with the passport control on the far end, it does not stop people entering the Schengen area. There appears to be two different usages of "Schengen area" in this thread, in this quote it refers to 27 nations of the EU. In another post it refers to the post Schengen passport control checks area inside St Pancras.

They could do passport control on arrival in theory, but given that they don't seem to have any facilities set up for doing that at most of the stations they serve I'm not sure it would be possible? Where would passport control take place at Calais, Marne-la-Valee or Rotterdam?

 

[smid]

They could do passport control on arrival in theory, but given that they don't seem to have any facilities set up for doing that at most of the stations they serve I'm not sure it would be possible? Where would passport control take place at Calais, Marne-la-Valee or Rotterdam?

I don't know where the minor stations did it, it used to be the case back around Waterloo when I started using it regularly in 2001. I remember Belgian passport control at the end of the platform in Brussels. That might even not have been true when I stopped being a regular end of 2003, it's a bit hazy. But remote end passport control has been a thing before on the route. I never got on or off at Ashford or Calais and never visited Paris during that time, but I don't think there was Schengen passport control initially at the Waterloo departures area.

 

[biko]

Looking at that floor plan it seems crazy. It's an area almost as large as departures, which is almost completely empty of equipment and 99% of the time empty of people, I'm not sure what it could ever be used for. The UKG would never take the risk of doing immigration checks on arrival, and customs check areas at airports are little different to what Eurostar has now.

I wonder if the original intention was to have a second depature lounge + direct exit from the platforms, or if there are some security requirements we don't know about like the ability to 'hold' an entire trainload of people whilst also having the train and platform empty.

I thought the idea of the area was to be able to check at arrival if needed, but also to do customs checks if needed. Last year when I arrived at St Pancras, customs was written on the desks in that area if I recall correctly.

 

[Chester1]

Not much will change for Eurostar next year. By the time demand recovers the EU will have rolled out ETIAS. That will make entry or non entry a quick decision for French border officials at St Pancras. The UK version will likely take longer to roll out but will produce the same outcome.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Doesn't the treaty (if you are referring Le Toquet) refer to foreign passport control operating inside another country? If it that didn't work, it could easily work with the passport control on the far end, it does not stop people entering the Schengen area. There appears to be two different usages of "Schengen area" in this thread, in this quote it refers to 27 nations of the EU. In another post it refers to the post Schengen passport control checks area inside St Pancras.

I don't understand the reference to Schengen as relating to 27 EU countries; the UK isn't the only EU (or recently-EU) country not in the Schengen zone, and there are non-EU members states which are within it. It's a (convenient, of course) non-passport [usually!] and common-visa-for-outsiders zone, which might not exist in its current form in the absence of the EU, but it's not exclusively a function of the EU.

 

[route101]

Dont recall ever being checked at customs in Europe. Usually no one there. UK passports getting stamped going into Europe?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Dont recall ever being checked at customs in Europe. Usually no one there. UK passports getting stamped going into Europe?

Shengen and customs aren't the same. The former is to do with passports/visas etc, not to do with the movement of goods. While the UK's been in the EU, the free trade aspects of membership meant customs were't a problem between the UK and adjacent EU countries, but passports were checked because of crossing the border of the Shengen zone. It's possible to have this the other way round - eg Norway is in Shengen, hence free flow of people across the border with Sweden, but Norway (not being in the EU) has customs checks at the border with Sweden.

After this year, the passport situation vis-a-vis travel to and from the EU isn't so different*, but it'll be the reintroduction of customs which is new. (*Except in as much as concessions by EU Shengen area countries to non-Shengen fellow EU members - concessions which make passport/visa formalities less onerous than they are for people from non-EU non-Shengen countries - will stop. This might mean added visa complications in the future when Shengen countries introduce new electronic visas.)

 

[route101]

Shengen and customs aren't the same. The former is to do with passports/visas etc, not to do with the movement of goods. While the UK's been in the EU, the free trade aspects of membership meant customs were't a problem between the UK and adjacent EU countries, but passports were checked because of crossing the border of the Shengen zone. It's possible to have this the other way round - eg Norway is in Shengen, hence free flow of people across the border with Sweden, but Norway (not being in the EU) has customs checks at the border with Sweden.

After this year, the passport situation vis-a-vis travel to and from the EU isn't so different*, but it'll be the reintroduction of customs which is new. (*Except in as much as concessions by EU Shengen area countries to non-Shengen fellow EU members - concessions which make passport/visa formalities less onerous than they are for people from non-EU non-Shengen countries - will stop. This might mean added visa complications in the future when Shengen countries introduce new electronic visas.)

With customs, even if i travel from EU to Non Eu , say Serbia , there wasnt customs checks.

 

[biko]

With customs, even if i travel from EU to Non Eu , say Serbia , there wasnt customs checks.

But that is the responsibility of Serbia, so that doesn't mean the EU would not check. I don't expect regular strict checks, but it is possible and there should be some way of doing it. At the moment, I cannot see how they could do checks at arrival in for example Rotterdam

 

[TheSeeker]

If you've ever flown into Schiphol from outside the EU you will have certainly met the very efficient Dutch customs. "Show me some pictures on this camera".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Dont recall ever being checked at customs in Europe. Usually no one there. UK passports getting stamped going into Europe?

We currently have free movement with the EU, and passport checks are only for identity (no visa), and UK holders can stay as long as they like, and work.
From 1 January, it will be like any other non-EU border, where visas will be checked for length of stay.
The plan is for 90-day visa-free travel between UK and EU states (but no work allowed), so entry and exit will have to be checked/stamped, as it is now in places like South Africa which have a 90-day visa-free visitor rule.
At the very least, it will take more time at airport desks/passport control - enjoy the non-EU queues at Schiphol, CDG etc.
It might even mean you have to have a return ticket and demonstrate funds for your stay, and all those irritating "foreigner" checks.
Unfortunately, we voted for it.

And in 2022, as non-EU members, we will have to conform to the EU electronic pre-travel authorisation scheme, as you have to do today for US/Canada/Australia.
So no last minute dash to St Pancras on a whim to catch the last Eurostar of the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And in 2022, as non-EU members, we will have to conform to the EU electronic pre-travel authorisation scheme, as you have to do today for US/Canada/Australia.
So no last minute dash to St Pancras on a whim to catch the last Eurostar of the day.

With the US system once signed up it lasts 5 years. For people who might "dash to St Pancras on a whim" (who must be rich given the airline style pricing of E* - rocking up is going to probably cost you around £300 return at minimum) it would be worthwhile just maintaining it continuously, about 20 quid every 5 years to do it would not be prohibitive to such people.

 

[Starmill]

I don't understand the reference to Schengen as relating to 27 EU countries; the UK isn't the only EU (or recently-EU) country not in the Schengen zone, and there are non-EU members states which are within it. It's a (convenient, of course) non-passport [usually!] and common-visa-for-outsiders zone, which might not exist in its current form in the absence of the EU, but it's not exclusively a function of the EU.

Apologies if there's a cause of confusion. I'm not sure the EU 27 as a designation have actually been invoked.

The reason for mentioning Schengen is in the context of an application for a Schengen Visa, if required. If a Visa is not required, that is part of the check that's done at the border. This is what I think might cause delays. I can't see the border guards just letting everyone in without ever asking questions about the destination, journey purpose and planned length of stay?

Your passport needs to have sufficient space in it for stamps too.

 

[AlbertBeale]

We currently have free movement with the EU, and passport checks are only for identity (no visa), and UK holders can stay as long as they like, and work.
From 1 January, it will be like any other non-EU border, where visas will be checked for length of stay.
The plan is for 90-day visa-free travel between UK and EU states (but no work allowed), so entry and exit will have to be checked/stamped, as it is now in places like South Africa which have a 90-day visa-free visitor rule.
At the very least, it will take more time at airport desks/passport control - enjoy the non-EU queues at Schiphol, CDG etc.
It might even mean you have to have a return ticket and demonstrate funds for your stay, and all those irritating "foreigner" checks.
Unfortunately, we voted for it.

And in 2022, as non-EU members, we will have to conform to the EU electronic pre-travel authorisation scheme, as you have to do today for US/Canada/Australia.
So no last minute dash to St Pancras on a whim to catch the last Eurostar of the day.

Re "Unfortunately, we voted for it." Well, strictly speaking "we" (collectively) didn't. Leaving the EU structure (which is what the vote was about) didn't inevitably mean the introduction of additional passport and visa controls. Agreements can exist (and do in places*) for adjoining countries to allow travel between them without routine use of such formalities, and without being part of an overarching political structure. In a different political situation (different with regard to the current politics of the UK and the current politics of the EU) the UK could have ceased to be part of the EU without all the effects which now seem likely - and certainly without the need for any checks beyond those which already happened between the UK and France/Belgium. (*Including in places in Europe, between EU members and non-EU members.) There are many political decisions being made on both sides which aren't necessitated by the UK withdrawal from the EU.

 

[Starmill]

Re "Unfortunately, we voted for it." Well, strictly speaking "we" (collectively) didn't. Leaving the EU structure (which is what the vote was about) didn't inevitably mean the introduction of additional passport and visa controls. Agreements can exist (and do in places*) for adjoining countries to allow travel between them without routine use of such formalities, and without being part of an overarching political structure. In a different political situation (different with regard to the current politics of the UK and the current politics of the EU) the UK could have ceased to be part of the EU without all the effects which now seem likely - and certainly without the need for any checks beyond those which already happened between the UK and France/Belgium. (*Including in places in Europe, between EU members and non-EU members.) There are many political decisions being made on both sides which aren't necessitated by the UK withdrawal from the EU.

While this is true one, can make the argument that a vote for the Conservative party in 2019 was a vote for a particular form of Brexit which would sever almost all such ties, and without doubt to remove all of our benefits from the point of view of border checks. Obviously the majority of voters did not choose to support the Conservative party but that's another matter, and many did. To put it another way, there are inevitable consequences from an exit from the Single Market and Customs Union, and the Conservative party promised to deliver that.

 

[radamfi]

Maybe this will encourage airlines to improve or reintroduce flights between London and Paris/Brussels. No need for juxtaposition of border controls and airports already have customs facilities.