Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Envoy]

The other name changes have been to the "Executive Committee of the National Assembly for Wales / Welsh Assembly Government / Welsh Government", rather than to the Assembly / Parliament itself.

I know there are several who still think of the MkIII service to Cardiff as the "WAG Express"

I note that the elected members firstly had AM (Assembly Member) after their name(s) and that it has now been changed to MS (Member of Senedd).

I thought that the “WAG Express” was for the wives & girlfriends of footballers! Of course it was also named ‘Y Gerallt Gymro’ meaning ‘Gerald of Wales’ - hence why some people call it Gerald. Trouble is that most people have never heard of Gerald let alone would know him by his Welsh name of Gerallt. (He was born in Manorbier Castle in the 1100’s and travelled extensively).

You can see a video here:>

 

[anamyd]

What's the current expected date of entry into service for these, does anyone know...? Thanks

 

[Jamesrob637]

One run on New Year's Eve Eve like the TPE Mk3 set three years ago just to say they got one in traffic during 2020?!

 

[craigybagel]

As things have gone quiet on this thread, I thought I'd let you all know that conversion training for existing 67/MKIII trained traincrew to MKIV has now started.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

As things have gone quiet on this thread, I thought I'd let you all know that conversion training for existing 67/MKIII trained traincrew to MKIV has now started.

Thanks for the update, good to hear. Do we know if TFW plan to reintroduce 67 hauled services on the Holyhead-Manchester?

 

[craigybagel]

Thanks for the update, good to hear. Do we know if TFW plan to reintroduce 67 hauled services on the Holyhead-Manchester?

Unless things have changed, there are no plans at all for that. It was only meant to be a temporary thing when the MKIVs were introduced and there is no longer any need for it. Plus since the MKIIIs were withdrawn the services they used to work now go through to the airport which might be an extra complication.

 

[Welshman]

As things have gone quiet on this thread, I thought I'd let you all know that conversion training for existing 67/MKIII trained traincrew to MKIV has now started.

Yes, thank you for the update.
May I ask further questions-

I heard of the possibility of TfW receiving further sets of MkIVs and 67s from the aborted plan for open access from Euston to Blackpool. Has a decision been reached on that?

And I note what you say about using them on the Manchesters and the complications of running through to the airport, but in light of the consultation on the Castlefield Corridor congestion and the suggestion the North-Wales-Manchesters could be diverted to Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge, might they be considered for that?

Or perhaps your Crystal Ball is not of sufficient power?

 

[PHILIPE]

Yes, thank you for the update.
May I ask further questions-

I heard of the possibility of TfW receiving further sets of MkIVs and 67s from the aborted plan for open access from Euston to Blackpool. Has a decision been reached on that?

And I note what you say about using them on the Manchesters and the complications of running through to the airport, but in light of the consultation on the Castlefield Corridor congestion and the suggestion the North-Wales-Manchesters could be diverted to Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge, might they be considered for that?

Or perhaps your Crystal Ball is not of sufficient power?

Speculation at this stage.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Well I suppose the GC sets are now going spare, still a few ex LNER rakes still kicking around in various states of storage

 

[morrisobrien]

I know it is very hard to judge due to so many reasons, but when do you think these units may start operating?
Will it be at the start of a new timetable ie.December 2021/May 2022.

 

[craigybagel]

Or perhaps your Crystal Ball is not of sufficient power?

Correct anything I say further about such things would be purely speculation, I don't know any more about that then anybody else does.

If more MKIVs were acquired, I would personally expect them to go on the other Cardiff - Holyhead services that are currently planned for CAFs. This is a hunch based on it being operationally easier that way, and that it adds extra prestige to a route within Wales. But, again for emphasis - this is just a hunch! I don't know if they're coming or not, or where they'd go if they did come.

 

[popeter45]

Correct anything I say further about such things would be purely speculation, I don't know any more about that then anybody else does.

If more MKIVs were acquired, I would personally expect them to go on the other Cardiff - Holyhead services that are currently planned for CAFs. This is a hunch based on it being operationally easier that way, and that it adds extra prestige to a route within Wales. But, again for emphasis - this is just a hunch! I don't know if they're coming or not, or where they'd go if they did come.

if they did that i would love if they extended a few to Swansea

 

[craigybagel]

I know it is very hard to judge due to so many reasons, but when do you think these units may start operating?
Will it be at the start of a new timetable ie.December 2021/May 2022.

I'd rather not answer this until it becomes public knowledge, plus I'm not 100% sure myself in any case.

 

[37424]

I certainly hope they don't acquire more MK4 stock, scandalous waste of money for a regional service. I wonder how many actually use the North Wales service from the South, the Cardiff-Manchester route strikes me as being far more important and that's the route they should be used on if any but of course that's not in Wales. It always struck me that Manchester Cardiff should be XC although not with the current company that run it.

 

[PHILIPE]

I certainly hope they don't acquire more MK4 stock, scandalous waste of money for a regional service. I wonder how many actually use the North Wales service from the South, the Cardiff-Manchester route strikes me as being far more important and that's the route they should be used on if any but of course that's not in Wales. It always struck me that Manchester Cardiff should be XC although not with the current company that run it.

I think you will find all Cross Country routes use Birmingham as a Hub. It is all speculation at the moment and it seems that if news of some possible Mark 4s becoming available people go straight to TFW as a prospective user. Too much LHCS stock is not popular due to the higher Track Access Charges.

 

[DB]

I think you will find all Cross Country routes use Birmingham as a Hub. It is all speculation at the moment and it seems that if news of some possible Mark 4s becoming available people go straight to TFW as a prospective user. Too much LHCS stock is not popular due to the higher Track Access Charges.

If they'd wanted more Mk4s initially they could have had them - there were far more available than anyone needed. Not sure that new seat covers and a coat of paint in another operator's livery would be enough to tip the balance!

 

[47827]

If they'd wanted more Mk4s initially they could have had them - there were far more available than anyone needed. Not sure that new seat covers and a coat of paint in another operator's livery would be enough to tip the balance!

Correct although thought they had received exams a little bigger than daily routine maintenance so they may be slightly more attractive than some remaining stored sets. That doesn't mean that publicly funded TFW will want any though as semi permanent service cuts are at least under consideration by railway operators now as things stand if recent news reports are anything to go on.

If more turns were ever utilised I would imagine that something to West Wales and/or Manchester wouldn't be completely impossible if the diagrams and timetable were amended. Even if it were possible to have say 4 or 5 sets just doing Holyhead to Cardiff that would mean sensibly all Marches crews would need knowledge though presumably and possibly an extra batch of crew who sign North Wales (especially if you ever need cross depot cover). That would no doubt increase training requirements and costs. That's before the failure risks associated with more than 2 sets and possibility of thunderbird requirements are even considered.

 

[route101]

I know it is very hard to judge due to so many reasons, but when do you think these units may start operating?
Will it be at the start of a new timetable ie.December 2021/May 2022.

Rail magazine article said May 2021 with 3 sets.

 

[DB]

Correct although thought they had received exams a little bigger than daily routine maintenance so they may be slightly more attractive than some remaining stored sets.

That wouldn't really be the operator's problem though - providing them in a fit state would be up to the ROSCO.

Rail magazine article said May 2021 with 3 sets.

The original plan was for 3 sets, with two in use and one spare. I assume that's what is meant here?

They also need a dedicated set of locos as specific modifications are required, whereas with the Mk3s any 67 which had had the fire system modifications (which was most of them) could be used.

 

[CW2]

The original plan was for two diagrams per day, each of three legs. These were:
A.
07:02 Cardiff - Holyhead 11:20
11:34 Holyhead - Cardiff 16:15
17:16 Cardiff - Holyhead 21:41

B.
05:34 Holyhead - Cardiff 09:58
11:24 Cardiff - Holyhead 16:06
16:51 Holyhead - Cardiff 21:24

All the above services run via Wrexham, reversing at Chester. I don't know if the timings are flexed at all from the May 2021 timetable - always assuming these remain the diagrams.

 

[DB]

Have they done any refurbishment yet to the Mk4s or are they still the same inside and out as when LNER finished with them?

 

[craigybagel]

I certainly hope they don't acquire more MK4 stock, scandalous waste of money for a regional service. I wonder how many actually use the North Wales service from the South, the Cardiff-Manchester route strikes me as being far more important and that's the route they should be used on if any but of course that's not in Wales. It always struck me that Manchester Cardiff should be XC although not with the current company that run it.

Operationally it makes a lot more sense with the W&B franchise. Plus it allows for through running to Swansea and beyond.

If they'd wanted more Mk4s initially they could have had them - there were far more available than anyone needed. Not sure that new seat covers and a coat of paint in another operator's livery would be enough to tip the balance!

True - but purely playing devils advocate, with the demise of the GC plans it may well be a case of now or never. If TfW don't look at them now, they may well be off to the scrapyard and if they change their mind in a year or more, it'll be too late.

Correct although thought they had received exams a little bigger than daily routine maintenance so they may be slightly more attractive than some remaining stored sets. That doesn't mean that publicly funded TFW will want any though as semi permanent service cuts are at least under consideration by railway operators now as things stand if recent news reports are anything to go on.

If more turns were ever utilised I would imagine that something to West Wales and/or Manchester wouldn't be completely impossible if the diagrams and timetable were amended. Even if it were possible to have say 4 or 5 sets just doing Holyhead to Cardiff that would mean sensibly all Marches crews would need knowledge though presumably and possibly an extra batch of crew who sign North Wales (especially if you ever need cross depot cover). That would no doubt increase training requirements and costs. That's before the failure risks associated with more than 2 sets and possibility of thunderbird requirements are even considered.

One of the reasons why I put more Holyhead - Cardiff services as my hunch for the use of a hypothetical expanded fleet of MKIVs is that that could be done without expanding knowledge of these sets to any extra depots. As it stands, these sets won't be able to run between Manchester and Crewe without either another guards depot (Crewe) learning them or a depot that does know them (most likely Shrewsbury) learning the route. Either option is doable, but adds expense and complication.

 

[Eccles1983]

The only way they would take more on is if Chester men signed them. They have the biggest and most useful route card in the north by a long stretch, and would be far more deployable than Llandudno Junction.

Due to that, I cant see it happening.

 

[adrock1976]

The original plan was for two diagrams per day, each of three legs. These were:
A.
07:02 Cardiff - Holyhead 11:20
11:34 Holyhead - Cardiff 16:15
17:16 Cardiff - Holyhead 21:41

B.
05:34 Holyhead - Cardiff 09:58
11:24 Cardiff - Holyhead 16:06
16:51 Holyhead - Cardiff 21:24

All the above services run via Wrexham, reversing at Chester. I don't know if the timings are flexed at all from the May 2021 timetable - always assuming these remain the diagrams.

Looking at Diagram A, there is only 14 minutes layover at Holyhead which I feel may not be enough to recover from any delays.

Also bear in mind that there are some single track sections around Anglesey and between Chester and Wrexham.

 

[craigybagel]

The only way they would take more on is if Chester men signed them. They have the biggest and most useful route card in the north by a long stretch, and would be far more deployable than Llandudno Junction.

Due to that, I cant see it happening.

They could give it to just the one link at Chester, like they do at Crewe and Cardiff?

Again, I don't expect it to happen either - just thinking about how it COULD happen if it did.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at Diagram A, there is only 14 minutes layover at Holyhead which I feel may not be enough to recover from any delays.

Also bear in mind that there are some single track sections around Anglesey and between Chester and Wrexham.

Nothing like a clockface timetable, is there? That's all over the place.

 

[craigybagel]

Looking at Diagram A, there is only 14 minutes layover at Holyhead which I feel may not be enough to recover from any delays.

Also bear in mind that there are some single track sections around Anglesey and between Chester and Wrexham.

Turnarounds at Holyhead have been very tight for a while. 14 minutes is actually quite long compared to some of the others.

 

[PHILIPE]

Looking at Diagram A, there is only 14 minutes layover at Holyhead which I feel may not be enough to recover from any delays.

Also bear in mind that there are some single track sections around Anglesey and between Chester and Wrexham.

There are currently layovers at Holyhead which are less than that, even some of 3 minutes

 

[craigybagel]

Nothing like a clockface timetable, is there? That's all over the place.

Hopefully something the big recast in 2024 will fix. The stopping pattern on the Marches and to a lesser extent the North Wales Coast is a mess, seemingly no two successive trains have the same calling pattern.

 

[Eccles1983]

They could give it to just the one link at Chester, like they do at Crewe and Cardiff?

Again, I don't expect it to happen either - just thinking about how it COULD happen if it did.....

Either link at chester is 40+ drivers.

It would unlock a mountain of routes, liverpool to birmingham via chester - Man airport etc. You could have rakes going cardiff-liverpool.

It makes operational sense to have Chester men do the units. But cost wise its never going to happen.