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Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

craigybagel

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With current stopping patterns, the journey time from Manchester to Swansea (or vice versa) is between 4 hrs 10 mins to 4 hrs 30 mins approximately. Extension to Carmarthen adds about 50 minutes (each way).
With a sensible turnround time at each end, it is unlikely that any set starting from Swansea will be able to make 2 round trips per day to Manchester, except perhaps the very first departure in the morning.
Extending through to Carmarthen during the day will essentially cost one extra diagram for a 2-hourly interval service, or 2 extra diagrams for an hourly frequency. Extensions to / from Carmarthen first thing in the morning / last thing at night should be possible. It is difficult to draw up any sensible version of the current timetable involving terminating at Swansea as the layover times there would be nearly an hour.
There might be some merit in an hourly Swansea - Manchester limited stop service, with a 2-hourly Carmarthen - Crewe sweeper, picking up the intermediate stops omitted by the expresses.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what TfW decide to do. I'm pleased the Mk 4s are going to get some further use.
I've spent a bit of time working on this today, and I came up with a way that using 4 sets you could get the business hour trains at both ends covered, and allow for rotation with sets stabling in Crewe and Cardiff, but it does involve some very long layovers in Swansea.

If I post however it I risk incurring the wrath of the mods for speculating. But I'm struggling to see many other ways of covering the most important services in both directions both morning and evening without bumping into these problems.

How many passengers actually are there from (say) West of Swansea to north of Newport? I'd have thought that Swansea-Manchester overlapping with Milford Haven/Pembroke Dock-Cardiff would still serve the majority of flows directly (and add an extra train per hour between Swansea and Cardiff).
Very few. In any case TfW have made it very clear though that these sets won't be going to Carmarthen, and logistically this already complex situation gets even worse if they do, except perhaps in the middle of the day.
 
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tiptoptaff

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I've spent a bit of time working on this today, and I came up with a way that using 4 sets you could get the business hour trains at both ends covered, and allow for rotation with sets stabling in Crewe and Cardiff, but it does involve some very long layovers in Swansea.

If I post however it I risk incurring the wrath of the mods for speculating. But I'm struggling to see many other ways of covering the most important services in both directions both morning and evening without bumping into these problems.


Very few. In any case TfW have made it very clear though that these sets won't be going to Carmarthen, and logistically this already complex situation gets even worse if they do, except perhaps in the middle of the day.
Which would make sense, as if they go to Swansea only it makes them easier to cover with only Cardiff depot West of Cardiff
 

allaction

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Marginally Surprised Taxpayer of Cardiff here! Um, overnight I appear to have bought a considerable amount of railway coaching stock.

Is this a better deal for me than leasing them like most of my friends elsewhere do? How long do you think they will last? Can I get a refund if they suddenly corrode or something like that?

Only I’ve also got to pay for hospitals and the like….
 

Iskra

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Marginally Surprised Taxpayer of Cardiff here! Um, overnight I appear to have bought a considerable amount of railway coaching stock.

Is this a better deal for me than leasing them like most of my friends elsewhere do? How long do you think they will last? Can I get a refund if they suddenly corrode or something like that?

Only I’ve also got to pay for hospitals and the like….
Under the circumstances, they must have been pretty cheap, so by not leasing it could well be a saving for the tax payer.
 

Andy Pacer

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TfW confirms the purchase of additional Mk4 (30 of them)(including GC refurbished ones):


Reintroduction of the Welsh Premier Service 1 return trip per day from the 7th of June (Weekdays only).
The GC ones seems to be signposted for the Manchester - South Wales service. - Introduction Dec 22 -
Which loco/set was in use on the reintroduced Premiere?
 

Envoy

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Are these 67’s allowed to go at the same speed as DMU’s or have Network Rail imposed lower speed limits to save on track wear?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Are these 67’s allowed to go at the same speed as DMU’s or have Network Rail imposed lower speed limits to save on track wear?
The differentials are between Shrewsbury and Onibury (mostly 75/90), and they are still there.
Differentials Shrewsbury-Chester were removed during the upgrade of that route, but that won't affect Cardiff-Manchester.

The 67s will also be stretched to reach 110mph between Crewe and Stockport (well, Sandbach to Wilmslow really).
But no doubt they will try and offer the same paths on the route for both Mk4 and 197s.
 

Envoy

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The differentials are between Shrewsbury and Onibury (mostly 75/90), and they are still there.
Differentials Shrewsbury-Chester were removed during the upgrade of that route, but that won't affect Cardiff-Manchester.

The 67s will also be stretched to reach 110mph between Crewe and Stockport (well, Sandbach to Wilmslow really).
But no doubt they will try and offer the same paths on the route for both Mk4 and 197s.
Many thanks for swift response. A pity that they are not allowed to exceed 75mph on the Onibury to Shrewsbury leg.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Many thanks for swift response. A pity that they are not allowed to exceed 75mph on the Onibury to Shrewsbury leg.
The speed limits vary, so it's not all at 75.
Mostly 70/75 in fact, but there's a 40 and also some 90 southbound.
MU is usually 10-20mph higher.
 

craigybagel

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Are these 67’s allowed to go at the same speed as DMU’s or have Network Rail imposed lower speed limits to save on track wear?

The differentials are between Shrewsbury and Onibury (mostly 75/90), and they are still there.
Differentials Shrewsbury-Chester were removed during the upgrade of that route, but that won't affect Cardiff-Manchester.
The differentials between Wrexham and Gobowen are still there, nothing changed there during the upgrade. It's predominantly 70MU over 60. Gobowen - Shrewsbury was upgraded from 70MU/60 to 90 for everything.
The 67s will also be stretched to reach 110mph between Crewe and Stockport (well, Sandbach to Wilmslow really).
But no doubt they will try and offer the same paths on the route for both Mk4 and 197s.
I've not driven a 67 over 90 yet so I can't comment on their performance at those speeds, but with 4MKIIIs and a DVT they reached 90 in a shorter distance than a 175. Leaving Crewe, a good 175 hits 90 around Sandbach and 100 just before Holmes Chapel. It'll be interesting to see how well a 67 with 5 MKIVs can do on this section, but I'd be surprised if 110mph is that much of a struggle.
The speed limits vary, so it's not all at 75.
Mostly 70/75 in fact, but there's a 40 and also some 90 southbound.
MU is usually 10-20mph higher.
The 67s and MKIIIs were exempt from the lower speeds and ran at MU speeds over this section, including over the 90MU/40 bridge near Craven Arms that otherwise would have slowed services down quite a lot. I don't know if that exemption has been carried through to the MKIVs or not, but I'd be surprised if it hasn't been worked on at least.

Shrewsbury - Nantwich is predominantly 90MU/70, and in the past the MKIIIs had to follow the lower limit on the rare occasions that went this way. Hopefully this can be addressed as well as on a non stop Crewe - Shrewsbury it costs about 4 or 5 minutes.
 

Iskra

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TFW have confirmed it will be four additional 67’s, meaning seven in total, on the Twitter link I previously posted.
 

Jamesrob637

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Is it only 100 between Wilmslow and Stockport then? Most trains stop at Wilmslow anyway so there would be literally seconds in it if higher.
 

6Gtraincrew

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82226 is looking good in "Alzheimer's Society Cymru" charity livery. Sure the pics will soon be on TFW twitter.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Is it only 100 between Wilmslow and Stockport then? Most trains stop at Wilmslow anyway so there would be literally seconds in it if higher.
No, it's 110 Sandbach-Cheadle Hulme, but 175/197s are limited to 100.
The Wilmslow stop will have an impact, meaning Sandbach-Alderley Edge will be the practical limit of TfW 110 working.
67s are allegedly fit for 110 (actually built for 125mph), but have rarely run at that speed in passenger service.
There's nowhere else* on the TfW network rated over 100mph.

* unless you count Stechford-Birmingham International 110MU.
 
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craigybagel

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Must admit to being slightly surprised they didn't just go for all the Coast "long distance" trains (i.e. not Liv/Manc) being Mk4, but I'm sure for the long distance trips they'll be welcome.
I'll admit I was very pleasantly surprised as well. I believe there's been pressure from Swansea area AMs to see a Premier service there but that could have been achieved through extending Holyhead - Cardiff services.

That said, there is a probably more demand for a business hours premier service to Manchester then there is for additional off peak Holyhead services, which was effectively the only other option (since the peak time Holyhead runs are already covered).
TFW have confirmed it will be four additional 67’s, meaning seven in total, on the Twitter link I previously posted.
Seven sets will need seven locos obviously, but you can bet more than 7 locos will be used. You can't just couple any 67 onto the rake, it needs to be specially modified so there will be a larger pool of locos that can be used, and will otherwise be used on regular DBC duties.
Is it only 100 between Wilmslow and Stockport then? Most trains stop at Wilmslow anyway so there would be literally seconds in it if higher.

No, it's 110 Sandbach-Cheadle Hulme, but 175/197s are limited to 100.
The Wilmslow stop will have an impact, meaning Sandbach-Alderley Edge will be the practical limit of TfW 110 working.
It's 100 through Wilmslow itself, but 110 from there South to Sandbach and North to Cheadle Hulme. On the northern section with the existing DMUs it is impossible to achieve 100mph southbound and very rare northbound (it requires both a very strong performing 3 car set, and clear signals all the way through Edgely Junctions). Even then it can only be done for mere seconds.

67s are allegedly fit for 110 (actually built for 125mph), but have rarely run at that speed in passenger service.
There's nowhere else* on the TfW network rated over 100mph.

* unless you count Stechford-Birmingham International 110MU.
Pedantic I'll admit as the likelihood of these sets being used there outside of training runs is very low, but Wolverhampton - Stafford is 125HST/90, and from there to Crewe it's mostly 125EPS/110 if running on the fast lines.
 

craigybagel

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It's worse than that, as I don't think there's access to the Shrewsbury line from Platform 1. The current layout makes a loco change on that route utterly impractical.
Correct - only platforms 5 and 6 for through trains from Manchester towards Shrewsbury and vice versa.
 

daodao

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It's worse than that, as I don't think there's access to the Shrewsbury line from Platform 1. The current layout makes a loco change on that route utterly impractical.
I have a distinct memory of travelling from M/c Piccadilly to Cardiff Central about 1985 one winter Sunday evening in a train of Mk 1 carriages hauled by an electric loco (probably class 81/82) as far as Crewe (platform 5 or 6), where the engine was swapped to a diesel loco (I think it was a class 33).

It would be turning the clock back to use loco-hauled carriages on the Marches line, presumably running less often. IMO, the class 155 (and subsequently class 158) dmu trains were a distinct improvement over loco-hauled stock on this route, and the service also became more frequent. I travelled frequently on this line between 1984 and 2005, but have not travelled on it since, apart from 1 trip from Wilmslow to Shrewsbury and back in 2012.
 
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tiptoptaff

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I have a distinct memory of travelling from M/c Piccadilly to Cardiff Central about 1985 one winter Sunday evening in a train of Mk 1 carriages hauled by an electric loco (probably class 81/82) as far as Crewe (platform 5 or 6), where the engine was swapped to a diesel loco (I think it was a class 33).

It would be turning the clock back to use loco-hauled carriages on the Marches line, presumably running less often. IMO, the class 155 (and subsequently class 158) dmu trains were a distinct improvement over loco-hauled stock on this route, and the service also became more frequent. I travelled frequently on this line between 1984 and 2005, but have not travelled on it since, apart from 1 trip from Wilmslow to Shrewsbury and back in 2012.
5car Mk4s are going to be a significant improvement over 2and3 car 158/175 operated services. Frequency will remain hourly, with 5car 197s running alongside the LHCS to keep the service pattern as it currently is, as a minimum
 

Bletchleyite

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5car Mk4s are going to be a significant improvement over 2and3 car 158/175 operated services. Frequency will remain hourly, with 5car 197s running alongside the LHCS to keep the service pattern as it currently is, as a minimum

That's an almost Greater Anglia esque step-change, certainly. OK, 175s and ATW refurb 158s are fairly nice, but all that capacity will help hugely.
 

tiptoptaff

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That's an almost Greater Anglia esque step-change, certainly. OK, 175s and ATW refurb 158s are fairly nice, but all that capacity will help hugely.
When I used to work there I used to find that 2cars were always rammed, 3cars usually ample except at the busiest times and if a 4car somehow made it up there, even at the busiest times it was only "full" rather than rammed.
5cars, although some will bemoan it, will be more than enough for 99% of the time. Still, it'll get moaned about during 6nations/other rugby/events when it's completely rammed and that's all anyone will think about.
 

Cardiff123

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When I used to work there I used to find that 2cars were always rammed, 3cars usually ample except at the busiest times and if a 4car somehow made it up there, even at the busiest times it was only "full" rather than rammed.
5cars, although some will bemoan it, will be more than enough for 99% of the time. Still, it'll get moaned about during 6nations/other rugby/events when it's completely rammed and that's all anyone will think about.
Remember it will still be 3 (or 3.5) Mk4 standard carriages though, with 1 (or 1.5) first class, so it's not 5 standard class Mk4 carriages per service. Still a massive improvement though in comfort and quality of service, and capacity.
 

tiptoptaff

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Remember it will still be 3 (or 3.5) Mk4 standard carriages though, with 1 (or 1.5) first class, so it's not 5 standard class Mk4 carriages per service. Still a massive improvement though in comfort and quality of service, and capacity.
If they keep the buffets as they were under LNER, it'll be more likely 3.75 standard class. But, more seats overall. Plus, there are a chunk of people who'll travel in 1st.

The 197s will be 4.5 standard AIUI

It'll be marked improvement and whilst I'd expect it it to feel full during peak hours and busy weekends, standing should be minimal, unlike now
 

Rhydgaled

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The TfW press release says 30 extra mark 4 vehicles (which seemed to include the DVTs) - assuming Wikipedia is correct that there were 5 Grand Central DVTs and 30 coaches this would be 5x 2+5 rakes for TfW with 5 Grand Central vehicles remaining homeless and the 3 original TfW mark 4 sets (on the Holyhead route) remaining as 2+4 formations.

Have I interpreted that correctly?

How many passengers actually are there from (say) West of Swansea to north of Newport? I'd have thought that Swansea-Manchester overlapping with Milford Haven/Pembroke Dock-Cardiff would still serve the majority of flows directly (and add an extra train per hour between Swansea and Cardiff).
I agree, I think it's useful to have a through service from Swansea, Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend to stations north of Newport but from west of Swansea services to Cardiff would do.
 

tiptoptaff

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The TfW press release says 30 extra mark 4 vehicles (which seemed to include the DVTs) - assuming Wikipedia is correct that there were 5 Grand Central DVTs and 30 coaches this would be 5x 2+5 rakes for TfW with 5 Grand Central vehicles remaining homeless and the 3 original TfW mark 4 sets (on the Holyhead route) remaining as 2+4 formations.

Have I interpreted that correctly?

I agree, I think it's useful to have a through service from Swansea, Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend to stations north of Newport but from west of Swansea services to Cardiff would do.
I believe it was the coaches for extra 5car sets plus lengthening the existing 4car sets to 5
 

47444

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The TfW press release says 30 extra mark 4 vehicles (which seemed to include the DVTs) - assuming Wikipedia is correct that there were 5 Grand Central DVTs and 30 coaches this would be 5x 2+5 rakes for TfW with 5 Grand Central vehicles remaining homeless and the 3 original TfW mark 4 sets (on the Holyhead route) remaining as 2+4 formations.

Have I interpreted that correctly?
There were only 4 sets allocated to Grand Central, which were 6 vehicles long (including the DVT). That accounts for 24 coaches, so 6 more must be coming from other sources.

For clarity, the GC vehicles were:
Buffet: 10301-18-21-30
First: 11319-20-21-22
Standard End Car: 12210-11-22-24
Standard Disabled: 12310-16-23-26
Standard: 12434-52-61-77
DVT: 82200-01-27-30

I guess we have to wait for the identities of the remaining six - unless someone knows which they are?
 

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