Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[JonathanH]

Does anyone know what vehicles TfW have currently leased (so ignoring any they may or may not be getting from GC)?

In the Mark 4 withdrawal thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...021-refurbishment.182066/page-47#post-5038083

With TfW are 10312-25-28 .. 11323-24-25 .. 12217-19-25 .. 12446-47-54 .. 82216-26-29

 

[hexagon789]

As in, 1 or 2 courses or a bespoke breakfast sandwich.

Not bad for the distance

Does anyone know what vehicles TfW have currently leased (so ignoring any they may or may not be getting from GC)?

There's a list in this thread:

LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

The final set in London has just departed Ferme Park heading for Doncaster. 91109 & BN26 hauled by 67001 Set is the first to go onto Wabtec for refurb.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[ainsworth74]

Smashing, thank you (and thank you @Dave91131)

 

[Mag_seven]

Information: A new thread has been started that discusses diagrams that can be found here:

(2) TfW Mk4 Diagrams? | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

We should therefore keep this thread for discussion of the rolling stock

Thanks

 

[nedchester]

Transport for Wales introduces premium trains (tfw.wales)

Transport for Wales has introduced an improved rail service between Cardiff and Holyhead with greater capacity and fully refurbished intercity carriages.

More on Swansea to Manchester in December 2022 using the GC sets

 

[Fuzzytop]

Looks like the first class coach is still in the middle as previously photographed, rather than next to the DVT. I wonder why they've done it that way round?

 

[craigybagel]

Looks like the first class coach is still in the middle as previously photographed, rather than next to the DVT. I wonder why they've done it that way round?

Accessibility. It means that whichever way around the formation runs, the accessible coaches will be platformed on the short Down platform at Abergavenny.

Transport for Wales introduces premium trains (tfw.wales)

Transport for Wales has introduced an improved rail service between Cardiff and Holyhead with greater capacity and fully refurbished intercity carriages.

More on Swansea to Manchester in December 2022 using the GC sets

Indeed, it's nice that it's now officially public knowledge and not just something I have to describe as a "rumour"!

Transport of Wales also announced that they have successfully purchased a further 30 Mark 4 intercity carriages that are fully refurbished to a high standard. This will include four trains of five carriages which will enter service on the Swansea to Manchester route from December 2022.

The new trains will include First Class carriages, free Wi-Fi throughout, an enhanced food and drink offer including a buffet car, accessible toilets and baby changing facilities. There will also be wheelchair and priority seating available. The carriages were purchased thanks to funding from the Welsh Government.

James Price, Transport for Wales CEO said: “We’re continuing with our plans to transform transport across our network and improve the customer experience. Today, we’ve introduced additional Mark 4 carriages on our north-south Wales route that will improve the service.

“I’m also delighted to announce our plans to introduce premium intercity carriages to our network within the next two years. The Swansea-Manchester route is one of our most popular, providing key links between the cities of south Wales and north-west England. By introducing these high-quality trains, we’re recognising its importance as an intercity route and providing a more attractive alternative to travelling by car.

“The investment in high-quality trains demonstrates we’re going above and beyond our original commitment to transform the Wales and Borders rail service and deliver a world-class service for our customers throughout our network, including on the Heart of Wales and west Wales where we’re upgrading our original plans.”

 

[glenbogle]

Looks like the first class coach is still in the middle as previously photographed, rather than next to the DVT. I wonder why they've done it that way round?

Indeed it was.

 

[el_lnrd]

TfW confirms the purchase of additional Mk4 (30 of them)(including GC refurbished ones):

Transport for Wales introduces premium trains

Transport for Wales has introduced an improved rail service between Cardiff and Holyhead with greater capacity and fully refurbished intercity carriages.

news.tfw.wales

Reintroduction of the Welsh Premier Service 1 return trip per day from the 7th of June (Weekdays only).
The GC ones seems to be signposted for the Manchester - South Wales service. - Introduction Dec 22 -

 

[Bob Price]

Saw that, they have said Swansea to Manchester so I guess that will free up a couple of 197's for use elsewhere.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So is this the full Grand Central Mk4 fleet that was due to run Euston-Blackpool before they scrapped the idea?
"Purchased" suggests they will be in TfW ownership rather than leased via a Rosco.
Will 67s still be the preferred locos?
4x5 sets won't be able to run more than about half the Swansea-Manchester service.
That still leaves another 2 sets to deploy.
Interesting times, even if the stock is already 30 years old.

 

[Peter749]

Will 67s still be the preferred locos?
4x5 sets won't be able to run more than about half the Swansea-Manchester service.
That still leaves another 2 sets to deploy.
Interesting times, even if the stock is already 30 years old.

Unlikely to use a different class of loco as the depots and train crew know them

 

[craigybagel]

So is this the full Grand Central Mk4 fleet that was due to run Euston-Blackpool before they scrapped the idea?
"Purchased" suggests they will be in TfW ownership rather than leased via a Rosco.
Will 67s still be the preferred locos?
4x5 sets won't be able to run more than about half the Swansea-Manchester service.
That still leaves another 2 sets to deploy.
Interesting times, even if the stock is already 30 years old.

It will pretty much have to be 67s, there isn't really anything else available and it makes training easier.

To run half the service (ie 2 hourly) you'd need 5 sets, which isn't really doable. 3 hourly doesn't really sit very well with a 10 hour round trip so I suspect it'll be as Berniearms suggests, an uneven "selected services" situation.

 

[47827]

So is this the full Grand Central Mk4 fleet that was due to run Euston-Blackpool before they scrapped the idea?
"Purchased" suggests they will be in TfW ownership rather than leased via a Rosco.
Will 67s still be the preferred locos?
4x5 sets won't be able to run more than about half the Swansea-Manchester service.
That still leaves another 2 sets to deploy.
Interesting times, even if the stock is already 30 years old.

All Grand Central plus enough to add an extra standard to each set, as well as spare dvt and a couple more trailers.

They wouldn't be able to run more than every few hours with hauled stock on the Manchester route. I'd expect an early one starting Cardiff instead of Swansea and similar back at night due to the stock being based at Canton

 

[berneyarms]

It will pretty much have to be 67s, there isn't really anything else available and it makes training easier.

To run half the service (ie 2 hourly) you'd need 5 sets, which isn't really doable. 3 hourly doesn't really sit very well with a 10 hour round trip so I suspect it'll be as Berniearms suggests, an uneven "selected services" situation.

Yes indeed - as I posted elsewhere, I presume that you will see the two sets deployed on Cardiff-Holyhead doing three trips each on the route as per the original plan (rotating with a third spare set) in due course.

I think that it will obviously only be certain trains on South Wales-Manchester route that will be Mark 4 operated, with the rest being Class 197. But with three sets in service between South Wales and Manchester, each set could run three-four trips through the course of the day which would cover at least one key morning and evening peak train in each direction.

It's great news for the service.

 

[fgwrich]

So is this the full Grand Central Mk4 fleet that was due to run Euston-Blackpool before they scrapped the idea?
"Purchased" suggests they will be in TfW ownership rather than leased via a Rosco.
Will 67s still be the preferred locos?
4x5 sets won't be able to run more than about half the Swansea-Manchester service.
That still leaves another 2 sets to deploy.
Interesting times, even if the stock is already 30 years old.

Ownership transferred last month from Eversholt to TFW, so yes, they are indeed now owned by TFW. With an increase in sets, I think it’s likely that the option of another South Wales depot may well be back on the table.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just a gentle reminder that can we try and stick as much as possible to what is actually happening rather than "my idea for what they should..." type speculation

 

[Iskra]

Amazing news, I’m looking forward to travelling the Swansea-Manchester route again now, it’s a route that has deserved better stock for a while. Great to see the class 67 fleet being utilised more too

 

[DarloRich]

Amazing news, I’m looking forward to travelling the Swansea-Manchester route again now, it’s a route that has deserved better stock for a while. Great to see the class 67 fleet being utilised more too

Very good news - an vast improvement for passengers both on this route and elsewhere on the tfw network

 

[The Prisoner]

How many 67s will they need to operate the enhanced service? And will it mean any of the stored members of the class being brought back into use?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

4xMk4 sets deployed on South Wales-Manchester means 8x197s (4x3-car and 4x2-car, which would have worked in multiple) released for work elsewhere.

 

[Iskra]

How many 67s will they need to operate the enhanced service? And will it mean any of the stored members of the class being brought back into use?

Hi Iskra. In total, we're going to have 7 sets of Mark 4s in service once the extra sets enter service, though not all of them will be in service each day. We'll be using extra 67s based on this. Plans are still being worked out about which locos will be used ^Bryn

https://twitter.com/transport_wales/status/1401901512549355524?s=21

 

[43 302]

45 Mk4s, 15 class 67s.

 

[ainsworth74]

15 class 67s

That feels like a lot more 67s than you'd expect for the number of rakes...

 

[Iskra]

That feels like a lot more 67s than you'd expect for the number of rakes...

Agreed

 

[craigybagel]

45 Mk4s, 15 class 67s.

That feels like a lot more 67s than you'd expect for the number of rakes...

It sounds like 15 Class 67s getting the mods required to work with the MKIVs, but presumably not all will be allocated to TfW duties at the same time?

 

[Skip 10]

45 Mk4s, 15 class 67s.

I think it's 15 in total converted to work with MkIVs

 

[Mollman]

The press release photos seems to suggest that the ex-GC sets will stay in GC colours, but given that they won't be used for another 18 months that should give them capacity and time to repaint all the MK4s to the same colour scheme.

Does Swansea - Manchester really mean that or do they mean South West Wales - Manchester as the former will entail reducing the number of through journeys from SW Wales (Carmarthen). What affect will this have on the 197 order - will they reduce the number of units with first class or will the release units with first class go on another route?

 

[CW2]

With current stopping patterns, the journey time from Manchester to Swansea (or vice versa) is between 4 hrs 10 mins to 4 hrs 30 mins approximately. Extension to Carmarthen adds about 50 minutes (each way).
With a sensible turnround time at each end, it is unlikely that any set starting from Swansea will be able to make 2 round trips per day to Manchester, except perhaps the very first departure in the morning.
Extending through to Carmarthen during the day will essentially cost one extra diagram for a 2-hourly interval service, or 2 extra diagrams for an hourly frequency. Extensions to / from Carmarthen first thing in the morning / last thing at night should be possible. It is difficult to draw up any sensible version of the current timetable involving terminating at Swansea as the layover times there would be nearly an hour.
There might be some merit in an hourly Swansea - Manchester limited stop service, with a 2-hourly Carmarthen - Crewe sweeper, picking up the intermediate stops omitted by the expresses.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what TfW decide to do. I'm pleased the Mk 4s are going to get some further use.

 

[Ianno87]

The press release photos seems to suggest that the ex-GC sets will stay in GC colours, but given that they won't be used for another 18 months that should give them capacity and time to repaint all the MK4s to the same colour scheme.

Does Swansea - Manchester really mean that or do they mean South West Wales - Manchester as the former will entail reducing the number of through journeys from SW Wales (Carmarthen). What affect will this have on the 197 order - will they reduce the number of units with first class or will the release units with first class go on another route?

How many passengers actually are there from (say) West of Swansea to north of Newport? I'd have thought that Swansea-Manchester overlapping with Milford Haven/Pembroke Dock-Cardiff would still serve the majority of flows directly (and add an extra train per hour between Swansea and Cardiff).