Experience of Female Volunteers at Heritage Railways

[LGM08]

I'm actually surprised and shocked at this occurring at one of the railways mentioned in the OP, given that the line's General Manager is a female, and there a number of females there who undertake what many would consider to be male-dominated roles (guard's assessor, secondman, rolling stock repairs/maintenance for example), I do wonder if it is particular departments that are the biggest problem, rather than the railways as a whole? Whatever the answer, the dinosaur attitudes she has experienced are not acceptable.

EDIT: I have just noticed she mentions "My third experience was one of ease and acceptance" - perhaps this was at the line I mentioned above.

With regards to your edit, i do believe “the third” that Joanne is speaking of is the place where the General Manager is female too.

If anyone knows Joanne she’s an absolutely cracking woman, always works hard and never comes off the footplate clean.

 

[theblackwatch]

With regards to your edit, i do believe “the third” that Joanne is speaking of is the place where the General Manager is female too.

If anyone knows Joanne she’s an absolutely cracking woman, always works hard and never comes off the footplate clean.

Thanks, that's good to know - and it shows that not all railways and volunteers have the awful attitude displayed by some.

 

[OzLoon]

(snip)

And, yes, I think it was down to a sense of it no longer being a lad's club. (I also think some of the male staff actually preferred the change of culture.)

Indeed - there are huge numbers of men who dislike the working atmosphere boofy blokes create, and it is a major relief to be in a workplace where this baleful influence is absent, or at least much reduced. And not least because there's a mutual self-reverence between boofy blokes which leads to their promotion and presence in leadership roles, and so it being ingrained in that workplace's culture.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

It was pretty horrific reading, but also not unexpected in the slightest.

These kind of attitudes will be the death of railways. It's tolerated because no-one wants to discipline or remove skilled volunteers, but these dinosaurs are toxic to the people around them.

Sadly if railways proactively try to eradicate these attitudes, no doubt someone'll complain about it being woke or over the top.

 

[Ianno87]

And, yes, I think it was down to a sense of it no longer being a lad's club. (I also think some of the male staff actually preferred the change of culture.)

And some men also equally find it hard to speak out against such a "lads" culture - especially when that environment is encouraged by management.

 

[Class360/1]

We've had previous discussion on the future of Heritage Railways, including how to attract future (and more diverse) volunteers.

Joanne Crompton (on Twitter as @JoanneMCrompton) is a volunteer fireman on (I believe) the East Lancs and Llangollen railways, and recently did a presentation to the Heritage Railway Association.

The transcript of the presentation has been made available here: https://hra.sharepoint.com/:b:/g/EV2W8ZUsbIZNgA7O3Q7bYmsBylQmsP_rc6GSNtvpD8mVjQ?e=47y9VK

I won't quote it, as I wont do it justice, but I strongly encourage fellow forum-ites to read it end to end; some of her expierences are truly awful and shocking, and should be a wake-up call to the Heritage sector if it wants to stay relevant into the future.

I am shocked. Well done to the lady for sharing her story.

 

[eldomtom2]

Indeed - there are huge numbers of men who dislike the working atmosphere boofy blokes create, and it is a major relief to be in a workplace where this baleful influence is absent, or at least much reduced. And not least because there's a mutual self-reverence between boofy blokes which leads to their promotion and presence in leadership roles, and so it being ingrained in that workplace's culture.

Doesn't this attitude lend credence to the previously discussed concerns about a reaction to perceived loss of men's spaces?

 

[WAO]

Many workplaces can be intolerant towards individuals who are a bit different, e.g. ones with a different regional (or posh) accent, are churchgoers, have a higher educational level or greater literacy etc. They are then subject to tedious wind-ups and social exclusion until the ritual initiation ordeal is satisfied. Introducing any unusual newcomer, such as a woman into such a previously working class male environment (office workers can be as bad) needs to be done with strong management oversight.

I hope those in leadership in the railways where Joanne has served have read her experiences and that due action is taken. Some supervisor and footplate demotions are due.

WAO

 

[D6130]

I hope those in leadership in the railways where Joanne has served have read her experiences and that due action is taken. Some supervisor and footplate demotions are due.

I am pleased to report that Joanne has progressed to firing steam locos on main line railtours from time to time. She has also been elected as treasurer of the Friends of the Settle-Carlisle Line (She is a chartered accountant by profession). There seems to be no end to her talents and enthusiasm and you do wonder when she finds the time to look after her young family. She is very much to be admired.

 

[Ianno87]

. There seems to be no end to her talents and enthusiasm and you do wonder when she finds the time to look after her young family.

I‘m guessing her husband (who she mentioned in her presentation and is also a fireman) does his fair share of the childcare etc. too. The idea of it being the woman’s core responsibility to be primary childcarer is old-hat.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I‘m guessing her husband (who she mentioned in her presentation and is also a fireman) does his fair share of the childcare etc. too. The idea of it being the woman’s core responsibility to be primary childcarer is old-hat.

I don't know her and you may do but they may not have kids of course.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't know her and you may do but they may not have kids of course.

I was going off what the previous poster said, assuming they knew.

 

[XAM2175]

Doesn't this attitude lend credence to the previously discussed concerns about a reaction to perceived loss of men's spaces?

Nope.

 

[D6130]

I don't know her and you may do but they may not have kids of course.

My information comes from Joanne's hustings letter when she stood - successfully - for election as Hon. Treasurer of the Friends of the Settle-Carlisle Line, of which I am a member. Unfortanately, I am unable to make a link. There is a video on YouTube of Joanne firing "City of Wells" on the East Lancs Railway and I believe there is another of her firing a main line steam special on the S & C, although I haven't seen it. I wouldn't be surprised if she passed-out as a driver before too long. She certainly seems to have the necessary enthusiasm, ability and determination.

 

[mjc]

Disappointing to read Joanne’s experiences as the attitudes displayed seem to be several decades behind most of the rest of the world although the average age of those involved in heritage rail and the fact that many volunteering hobbies can attract people who have some sort of social issues may well have contributed. That said other voluntary work in other sectors I’ve been involved in over the last 20 years hasn’t displayed any of those traits, and some of that was physically demanding.
Perhaps time for the HRA to have an ‘Individual’ section/membership and act as something like a union to support those involved in the sector (if they don’t already!). It shouldn’t be needed, and I’m not a fan of some unions, but it can’t be denied that there is strength in numbers and that unions have won some great successes in workplaces to support and protect staff.

 

[WesternLancer]

My information comes from Joanne's hustings letter when she stood - successfully - for election as Hon. Treasurer of the Friends of the Settle-Carlisle Line, of which I am a member. Unfortanately, I am unable to make a link. There is a video on YouTube of Joanne firing "City of Wells" on the East Lancs Railway and I believe there is another of her firing a main line steam special on the S & C, although I haven't seen it. I wouldn't be surprised if she passed-out as a driver before too long. She certainly seems to have the necessary enthusiasm, ability and determination.

Yes, I also read that - I thought how lucky the Association was to have someone so well qualified and interested be prepared to volunteer their help. Very good luck to her in all her endeavors.

The linked doc is both depressing and shocking - but very well written and worth a read.

 

[WAO]

I am pleased to report that Joanne has progressed to firing steam locos on main line railtours from time to time. She has also been elected as treasurer of the Friends of the Settle-Carlisle Line (She is a chartered accountant by profession). There seems to be no end to her talents and enthusiasm and you do wonder when she finds the time to look after her young family. She is very much to be admired.

I think that this highlights the problem; A chartered accountant holds a good university degree, is normally very well presented and spoken with polite good manners and rare expletives.

Social class is the hidden division in England.

WAO

 

[WesternLancer]

I think that this highlights the problem; A chartered accountant holds a good university degree, is normally very well presented and spoken with polite good manners and rare expletives.

Social class is the hidden division in England.

WAO

Those are issues but did you read the link to her presentation? If those skills allowed her to write a good account and it helps a working class women who wants to get on the footplate as a volunteer achieve that without being belittled and given the run around - well that's another benefit of her efforts too IMHO.

 

[D6130]

Unfortunately I am unable to create links, but the following YouTube videos show the estimable Ms Crompton doing her thing:

Ainscough Productions channel: Steampowered-Documentary

Ainscough Productions channel: From the footplate of 34092

Joanne Crompton channel: Barrow Hill 27th September 2015 - Driving the Jubilee

Her Twitter feed @JoanneMCrompton is also very interesting from a railway point of view and also very witty!

By the way, as a correction to my earlier post (#39), Joanne is not a chartered accountant, but is a chartered bookkeeper - member of the ICB).

 

[43066]

To be honest, it's a culture with a fairly dominant faction of maladjusted and socially stunted males at its core. When the author wrote something like 'it's as though they hadn't seen a female before' there might be a good reason for that!

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here!

But as a young lad I left the Boy Scouts at the point many years ago when it was agreed that girls could join: to me it was an organisation for boys only. And yet, if I had wanted to join the Girl Guides, that was not allowed, it's a girls only organisation. In a society where we have open tolerance for societies, clubs, gyms, leisure centres, choirs, "days" etc. for women only, and yet appear not to tolerate or promote anything that's for men only, it doesn't come as an entire surprise to me that some degree of resentment may build up among some.

This is a very valid point, at a time when there’s a fair bit of fairly anti male media coverage. Of course the solution to issues facing men is to focus on positive ventures such as International Mens’ Day, and a variety of similar/associated activities and organisations. A hobby (or workspace) should never be seen as a “safe space” for any group.

Albeit inevitably it will always be the case that certain activities and environments are male dominated, heritage railways included, simply because far more men than women have enough of an interest in the subject to spend their free time volunteering. The key thing is that those women who do wish to take part aren’t made to feel unwelcome or “othered”.

Demographics will also be a factor. You’ll often find that people at an age - say 25 to 55 - where they’re working/raising a family will have less time to spend on hobbies like this. Hence a preponderance of volunteers who are both younger and older.

I have to confess that I can't really see a reason for having male-only organisations in general life. Sadly, a lot of the justifications I've heard men attempt to make seem to centre on the fact that they can't be openly sexist if there are women around.

When mental health is in crisis, and men are committing suicide in such huge numbers, society as a whole needs to be more concerned. Perhaps (appropriate) male only environments provide an outlet where men feel they can express themselves and be listened to without judgement - no different to any other group. That has absolutely nothing to do with sexism.

 

[YorkshireBear]

When mental health is in crisis, and men are committing suicide in such huge numbers, society as a whole needs to be more concerned. Perhaps (appropriate) male only environments provide an outlet where men feel they can express themselves and be listened to without judgement - no different to any other group. That has absolutely nothing to do with sexism.

I find some of male environments encourage the sort of behaviour (in one's self) that can make you more at risk to suicide. Banter bordering on bullying, macho culture, not showing any emotions etc. So there is definitely a fine line.

I am agreeing with you here not disagreeing just to be clear. The key bit of your post being appropriate male only environments.

 

[cats_five]

Shocking, but sadly none of it surprises me. And it is going on in the same way with other groups and in other situations. Look at cricket, for example...

 

[reddragon]

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here!



This is a very valid point, at a time when there’s a fair bit of fairly anti male media coverage. Of course the solution to issues facing men is to focus on positive ventures such as International Mens’ Day, and a variety of similar/associated activities and organisations. A hobby (or workspace) should never be seen as a “safe space” for any group.

Albeit inevitably it will always be the case that certain activities and environments are male dominated, heritage railways included, simply because far more men than women have enough of an interest in the subject to spend their free time volunteering. The key thing is that those women who do wish to take part aren’t made to feel unwelcome or “othered”.

Demographics will also be a factor. You’ll often find that people at an age - say 25 to 55 - where they’re working/raising a family will have less time to spend on hobbies like this. Hence a preponderance of volunteers who are both younger and older.



When mental health is in crisis, and men are committing suicide in such huge numbers, society as a whole needs to be more concerned. Perhaps (appropriate) male only environments provide an outlet where men feel they can express themselves and be listened to without judgement - no different to any other group. That has absolutely nothing to do with sexism.

I agree with you

What happened to this and many other female volunteers is totally unacceptable and I know it is worse towards other minorities due to the demographics of those volunteering on heritage railways and it must stop.

Unfortunately we are in a world where everyone has their "ism" and behaves in an "ist" way towards one group or another.

Unfortunately all efforts are regarding diversity issues with women and minorities and ignores the fact that men also suffer equal levels of abuse in silence.

Boys are taught in schools dominated by women, with curriculums that have been adjusted to benefit girls by changing their emphasis. English & the Arts dominate whilst Maths & Science are under resourced. Progression & progress is schools is measured by girls attainment whereas boys who are later starters suffer. Men do not teach as they have been hounded out by allegations against them and the working environment but we see women in Engineering promoted yet men in teaching is not.

In family life the family court system automatically determines that mothers are best to look after children. A mother can simply imply or create a situation of apparent aggression by a father to gain custody / residence and hence cut the father from family life. This results in men loosing everything and yet still have to pay for their kids upbringing despite not being able to see their kids. I spent 8 years in family court to see my kids then keep them, so much effort against a system heavily bias against men. I saw many men at their wits end, complete wrecks and borderline suicidal. I won through acting in person and utter determination, despite there being 22 people representing the mother versus me on my own in court. The Judge shook my hand and congratulated me as I'd made history apparently!

In relationships all we hear about is violence against women. So why is it then men die by suicide in relationships at a rate of multiple times than women die or suffer? This is because women use a different kind of aggression. There was a recent case where a 66 yo Penelope Jackson killed her husband as he was 'violent' towards her. Turned out in court he was not and she had driven her previous husband to suicide and tried with 2 others! This is not all one way.

Today in the UK there are so many more things acting against men than women. I know that this is not the case is many other countries where women suffer unacceptably, but this is the UK.

Whilst it is unacceptable what was said to her, men equally receive those types of comment from women, yet apparently to men it's a compliment so acceptable.
Employers & interviewers are known to recruit in their own image. This discriminated is against her, but equally men, different social groups, ethnicities suffer the same in different environments, it's just that men have no route for complaint.

We hear than men are aggressors & bullies so are somehow less trustworthy, but guess which professions have the highest rates of bullying & harassment? Teaching & Nursing which are female dominated! I took out a complaint against a women manager who was a bully and harassed me for work at all hours. It was rejected simply in their owns words because she was a women & I a man and they even had the cheek to say if it had been the other way around I would have been fired!

Equality goes all ways and I feel upset in what has happened to this lady, but men are today's real victims and it's about time we stood up for ourselves whilst equally supporting women and other minorities by treating them the way we expect to be treated.

Friday 19th November is International Men's Day - lets celebrate it!

 

[WesternLancer]

I agree with you

What happened to this and many other female volunteers is totally unacceptable and I know it is worse towards other minorities due to the demographics of those volunteering on heritage railways and it must stop.

Unfortunately we are in a world where everyone has their "ism" and behaves in an "ist" way towards one group or another.

Unfortunately all efforts are regarding diversity issues with women and minorities and ignores the fact that men also suffer equal levels of abuse in silence.

Boys are taught in schools dominated by women, with curriculums that have been adjusted to benefit girls by changing their emphasis. English & the Arts dominate whilst Maths & Science are under resourced. Progression & progress is schools is measured by girls attainment whereas boys who are later starters suffer. Men do not teach as they have been hounded out by allegations against them and the working environment but we see women in Engineering promoted yet men in teaching is not.

In family life the family court system automatically determines that mothers are best to look after children. A mother can simply imply or create a situation of apparent aggression by a father to gain custody / residence and hence cut the father from family life. This results in men loosing everything and yet still have to pay for their kids upbringing despite not being able to see their kids. I spent 8 years in family court to see my kids then keep them, so much effort against a system heavily bias against men. I saw many men at their wits end, complete wrecks and borderline suicidal. I won through acting in person and utter determination, despite there being 22 people representing the mother versus me on my own in court. The Judge shook my hand and congratulated me as I'd made history apparently!

In relationships all we hear about is violence against women. So why is it then men die by suicide in relationships at a rate of multiple times than women die or suffer? This is because women use a different kind of aggression. There was a recent case where a 66 yo Penelope Jackson killed her husband as he was 'violent' towards her. Turned out in court he was not and she had driven her previous husband to suicide and tried with 2 others! This is not all one way.

Today in the UK there are so many more things acting against men than women. I know that this is not the case is many other countries where women suffer unacceptably, but this is the UK.

Whilst it is unacceptable what was said to her, men equally receive those types of comment from women, yet apparently to men it's a compliment so acceptable.
Employers & interviewers are known to recruit in their own image. This discriminated is against her, but equally men, different social groups, ethnicities suffer the same in different environments, it's just that men have no route for complaint.

We hear than men are aggressors & bullies so are somehow less trustworthy, but guess which professions have the highest rates of bullying & harassment? Teaching & Nursing which are female dominated! I took out a complaint against a women manager who was a bully and harassed me for work at all hours. It was rejected simply in their owns words because she was a women & I a man and they even had the cheek to say if it had been the other way around I would have been fired!

Equality goes all ways and I feel upset in what has happened to this lady, but men are today's real victims and it's about time we stood up for ourselves whilst equally supporting women and other minorities by treating them the way we expect to be treated.

Friday 19th November is International Men's Day - lets celebrate it!

I trust all of this is substantiated with some credible evidence. Some of it seems a bit far fetched to me....

 

[YorkshireBear]

I agree with you

What happened to this and many other female volunteers is totally unacceptable and I know it is worse towards other minorities due to the demographics of those volunteering on heritage railways and it must stop.

Unfortunately we are in a world where everyone has their "ism" and behaves in an "ist" way towards one group or another.

Unfortunately all efforts are regarding diversity issues with women and minorities and ignores the fact that men also suffer equal levels of abuse in silence.

Boys are taught in schools dominated by women, with curriculums that have been adjusted to benefit girls by changing their emphasis. English & the Arts dominate whilst Maths & Science are under resourced. Progression & progress is schools is measured by girls attainment whereas boys who are later starters suffer. Men do not teach as they have been hounded out by allegations against them and the working environment but we see women in Engineering promoted yet men in teaching is not.

In family life the family court system automatically determines that mothers are best to look after children. A mother can simply imply or create a situation of apparent aggression by a father to gain custody / residence and hence cut the father from family life. This results in men loosing everything and yet still have to pay for their kids upbringing despite not being able to see their kids. I spent 8 years in family court to see my kids then keep them, so much effort against a system heavily bias against men. I saw many men at their wits end, complete wrecks and borderline suicidal. I won through acting in person and utter determination, despite there being 22 people representing the mother versus me on my own in court. The Judge shook my hand and congratulated me as I'd made history apparently!

In relationships all we hear about is violence against women. So why is it then men die by suicide in relationships at a rate of multiple times than women die or suffer? This is because women use a different kind of aggression. There was a recent case where a 66 yo Penelope Jackson killed her husband as he was 'violent' towards her. Turned out in court he was not and she had driven her previous husband to suicide and tried with 2 others! This is not all one way.

Today in the UK there are so many more things acting against men than women. I know that this is not the case is many other countries where women suffer unacceptably, but this is the UK.

Whilst it is unacceptable what was said to her, men equally receive those types of comment from women, yet apparently to men it's a compliment so acceptable.
Employers & interviewers are known to recruit in their own image. This discriminated is against her, but equally men, different social groups, ethnicities suffer the same in different environments, it's just that men have no route for complaint.

We hear than men are aggressors & bullies so are somehow less trustworthy, but guess which professions have the highest rates of bullying & harassment? Teaching & Nursing which are female dominated! I took out a complaint against a women manager who was a bully and harassed me for work at all hours. It was rejected simply in their owns words because she was a women & I a man and they even had the cheek to say if it had been the other way around I would have been fired!

Equality goes all ways and I feel upset in what has happened to this lady, but men are today's real victims and it's about time we stood up for ourselves whilst equally supporting women and other minorities by treating them the way we expect to be treated.

Friday 19th November is International Men's Day - lets celebrate it!

Wow. Some very bad things happen to men. You make good points and they are worthy of discussion and attention, but you lost me at several points with hyperbole and generalisations. For each of your examples there are equal opposites for women other than mother's assumed the best to look after kids. Which I grant you is one issue where men are discriminated against. But let's just remember how many areas of society women are discriminated against too.

Particularly this hyperbole, men are not today's real victims..... some men are victims, some women are victims.

I am sorry for some of the things that have happened to you but that doesn't mean that how the whole world is.

This is not the thread for this discussion either I believe.

 

[reddragon]

Wow. Some very bad things happen to men. You make good points and they are worthy of discussion and attention, but you lost me at several points with hyperbole and generalisations. For each of your examples there are equal opposites for women other than mother's assumed the best to look after kids. Which I grant you is one issue where men are discriminated against. But let's just remember how many areas of society women are discriminated against too.

Particularly this hyperbole, men are not today's real victims..... some men are victims, some women are victims.

I am sorry for some of the things that have happened to you but that doesn't mean that how the whole world is.

This is not the thread for this discussion either I believe.

My point is that anyone can be bad, male or female and victims are generally now equal on both sides, rather than one sided against women in the past.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Thanks for sharing that. Very powerful stuff and sadly something that should not have had to have been written in the first place. Just subscribed to Joanne Crompton's twitter feed to learn more about her work.

 

[LowLevel]

My point is that anyone can be bad, male or female and victims are generally now equal on both sides, rather than one sided against women in the past.

Which is probably very true and absolutely nothing to do with the directly and indirectly sexist approach against female participants that (some) heritage railways have.

The subject matter is very specific. Unless you can point out any heritage railways where men are struggling with discrimination you're probably best starting a new thread. There's nothing more annoying than a discussion about a specific problem being interspersed with "but men suffer elsewhere too you know!".

It is well known and accepted that certain arenas (like family courts) are weighted against men.

 

[WesternLancer]

actually a fair bit of credit should go to the event / conf organizers for putting on the session at their event to start with - and getting this stuff a decent airing, tho I guess that's the easy bit compared to being a speaker for that session.

 

[RT4038]

Which is probably very true and absolutely nothing to do with the directly and indirectly sexist approach against female participants that (some) heritage railways have.

The subject matter is very specific. Unless you can point out any heritage railways where men are struggling with discrimination you're probably best starting a new thread. There's nothing more annoying than a discussion about a specific problem being interspersed with "but men suffer elsewhere too you know!".

It is well known and accepted that certain arenas (like family courts) are weighted against men.

I am really surprised at the amount of 'shock' expressed - either there are lots of people in 'cotton wool' environments or it is virtue signalling? Did people really think that this sort of thing couldn't be found (over a fairly long career) somewhere in the heritage railway sector?

Please don't lose sight that this contribution was sought for presentation at the Heritage Railway Association, whose senior figures are looking at how to recruit more volunteers . It is a collection of things that have happened to one individual over a fairly lengthy period of time, and nothing in it surprised me in the slightest. Not that I am saying that some things don't need to change, but this angle of 'shaming' of men in general is just not helpful, or fair.

I have had the pleasure, and displeasure, of working (paid and voluntary) with women as bosses and colleagues. I am sure I could write and present a good paper about the belittling, discriminatory, excluding, sexual etc. behaviour I have experienced or seen delivered on other male colleagues. But that doesn't fit the current agenda, so the issue is ignored. Just 'man-up'.

No paper was sought on the effect of introducing females to 'voluntary' hitherto male preserves. It is not realistic to pretend that men and women, and their interaction, are not going to cause issues of their own. The current view seems to be that men must simply change their behaviour to always enjoy the company of women, and instinctively know the social behaviours that women [individually and/ or in general] approve of, or be consigned to the outer darkness. (I love my wife but don't want to be with her all the time, and she doesn't want me to be with other women in my voluntary time......).

It is well known and accepted that certain arenas are weighted against men; it needs to be equally well known and accepted that certain arenas are weighted against women. Men need their space as much as women theirs.