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Experience of Female Volunteers at Heritage Railways

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43066

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I find some of male environments encourage the sort of behaviour (in one's self) that can make you more at risk to suicide. Banter bordering on bullying, macho culture, not showing any emotions etc. So there is definitely a fine line.

100% - I couldn’t agree more.

The subject matter is very specific. Unless you can point out any heritage railways where men are struggling with discrimination you're probably best starting a new thread. There's nothing more annoying than a discussion about a specific problem being interspersed with "but men suffer elsewhere too you know!".

Absolutely - I was responding to a specific point upthread previously - that’s not to take away from the very clear problem at some heritage railways (and indeed in enthusiast circles, as alluded go above). The key thing is making a cultural change as the big railway has (generally) pretty successfully done and continues to do.

On a more positive note my mother volunteers at a heritage railway in the south of England and thankfully hasn’t encountered the attitudes raised in the OP’s document. Albeit she certainly relates to the lack of facilities, which seems to be an issue across the board
in the sector.
 
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LowLevel

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I am really surprised at the amount of 'shock' expressed - either there are lots of people in 'cotton wool' environments or it is virtue signalling? Did people really think that this sort of thing couldn't be found (over a fairly long career) somewhere in the heritage railway sector?

Please don't lose sight that this contribution was sought for presentation at the Heritage Railway Association, whose senior figures are looking at how to recruit more volunteers . It is a collection of things that have happened to one individual over a fairly lengthy period of time, and nothing in it surprised me in the slightest. Not that I am saying that some things don't need to change, but this angle of 'shaming' of men in general is just not helpful, or fair.

I have had the pleasure, and displeasure, of working (paid and voluntary) with women as bosses and colleagues. I am sure I could write and present a good paper about the belittling, discriminatory, excluding, sexual etc. behaviour I have experienced or seen delivered on other male colleagues. But that doesn't fit the current agenda, so the issue is ignored. Just 'man-up'.

No paper was sought on the effect of introducing females to 'voluntary' hitherto male preserves. It is not realistic to pretend that men and women, and their interaction, are not going to cause issues of their own. The current view seems to be that men must simply change their behaviour to always enjoy the company of women, and instinctively know the social behaviours that women [individually and/ or in general] approve of, or be consigned to the outer darkness. (I love my wife but don't want to be with her all the time, and she doesn't want me to be with other women in my voluntary time......).

It is well known and accepted that certain arenas are weighted against men; it needs to be equally well known and accepted that certain arenas are weighted against women. Men need their space as much as women theirs.
I don't think anyone actually involved is expressing shock. Those on the outside may be.

What relevance does gender have to the conduct of voluntary duties on a heritage railway, or whether you enjoy someone's company in that setting?

It also shouldn't impact on whether workers or visitors can go to the toilet or shower in a modicum of dignity, for all concerned.

I know and enjoy working with all sorts of people, including laddish women and effeminate men. One of our most effective shed labourers over the years has been a happily married straight woman about 6ft 3 and built like a brick outhouse.

If your wife doesn't want you volunteering with someone just because they happen to be a female your wife should get a life.
 
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I am really surprised at the amount of 'shock' expressed - either there are lots of people in 'cotton wool' environments or it is virtue signalling? Did people really think that this sort of thing couldn't be found (over a fairly long career) somewhere in the heritage railway sector?

Please don't lose sight that this contribution was sought for presentation at the Heritage Railway Association, whose senior figures are looking at how to recruit more volunteers . It is a collection of things that have happened to one individual over a fairly lengthy period of time, and nothing in it surprised me in the slightest. Not that I am saying that some things don't need to change, but this angle of 'shaming' of men in general is just not helpful, or fair.

I have had the pleasure, and displeasure, of working (paid and voluntary) with women as bosses and colleagues. I am sure I could write and present a good paper about the belittling, discriminatory, excluding, sexual etc. behaviour I have experienced or seen delivered on other male colleagues. But that doesn't fit the current agenda, so the issue is ignored. Just 'man-up'.

No paper was sought on the effect of introducing females to 'voluntary' hitherto male preserves. It is not realistic to pretend that men and women, and their interaction, are not going to cause issues of their own. The current view seems to be that men must simply change their behaviour to always enjoy the company of women, and instinctively know the social behaviours that women [individually and/ or in general] approve of, or be consigned to the outer darkness. (I love my wife but don't want to be with her all the time, and she doesn't want me to be with other women in my voluntary time......).

It is well known and accepted that certain arenas are weighted against men; it needs to be equally well known and accepted that certain arenas are weighted against women. Men need their space as much as women theirs.
Ah, the defence of the dinosaurs has arrived...
 

RT4038

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Ah, the defence of the dinosaurs has arrived...
The trouble is there is a lot of them, they are still being made and are not likely to become extinct anytime soon. Open debate and acceptance of the issues is what is needed, not shaming and consigning to the outer darkness.
 
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The trouble is there is a lot of them, they are still being made and are not likely to become extinct anytime soon. Open debate and acceptance of the issues is what is needed, not shaming and consigning to the outer darkness.
From what you've written too, you said that you're not entirely sold on the idea of women being integrated into 'hitherto male preserves' and that your wife doesn't trust you to spend your free time around other women. With all due respect, that's a "you-problem". You've gotta figure out how you resolve that with volunteering in an integrated environment.

I think if heritage railways applied the same standards expected of people by other organisations or employers then this wouldn't be an issue. You say that men are expected to "instinctively know the social behaviours that women approve of, or be consigned to the outer darkness - I don't think there's a great deal of education needed to have people understand that issues like blatant discrimination, sexual harassment and aggression (the issues covered in this article) aren't acceptable and I wouldn't insult men enough to suggest that they need to be educated on how not to do this.

If people participate in these behaviours then I have no issue with calling it out and asking for it to be eradicated. It's not reflective of outside society in the slightest.
 

eldomtom2

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From what you've written too, you said that you're not entirely sold on the idea of women being integrated into 'hitherto male preserves' and that your wife doesn't trust you to spend your free time around other women. With all due respect, that's a "you-problem". You've gotta figure out how you resolve that with volunteering in an integrated environment.

I think if heritage railways applied the same standards expected of people by other organisations or employers then this wouldn't be an issue. You say that men are expected to "instinctively know the social behaviours that women approve of, or be consigned to the outer darkness - I don't think there's a great deal of education needed to have people understand that issues like blatant discrimination, sexual harassment and aggression (the issues covered in this article) aren't acceptable and I wouldn't insult men enough to suggest that they need to be educated on how not to do this.

If people participate in these behaviours then I have no issue with calling it out and asking for it to be eradicated. It's not reflective of outside society in the slightest.
I never find that portraying people as mustache-twirling villains who do bad for the sake of doing bad helps...
 

cats_five

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I never find that portraying people as mustache-twirling villains who do bad for the sake of doing bad helps...

Mostly the culprits have no idea how their behaviour impacts. Currently in the news Stanley Johnson claims to have no memory of groping an MP. Of course he doesn't - that was normal behaviour for him. But being groped was way out of normal for the MP, so she remembers it.
 

Western Sunset

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Progression & progress is schools is measured by girls attainment whereas boys who are later starters suffer. Men do not teach as they have been hounded out by allegations against them and the working environment but we see women in Engineering promoted yet men in teaching is not.
So all those weeks, months, and years I spent teaching in primary schools was just a dream then? Don't let your rant get in the way of the truth though...
 

reddragon

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So all those weeks, months, and years I spent teaching in primary schools was just a dream then? Don't let your rant get in the way of the truth though...
Girls are significantly ahead of boys in all educational settings and the gap is widening annually. I am not going to list the many studies, annual reports or records on this!

Men only represent 15% of all teachers and the majority of those are in secondary. This has a major gender bias in education, you don't need evidence for the common sense of that!
 

Paceman

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It will be particularly bad due to the number in preservation and spotting who are Incels. They have some awful views towards women.
 

LowLevel

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It will be particularly bad due to the number in preservation and spotting who are Incels. They have some awful views towards women.

Really? That is something I most definitely haven't noted.
 

D365

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Some quite substantial generalisations being aired within this discussion…

on the original topic, though, I’m appalled at the behaviour that some males choose to exhibit toward their female counterparts. In this day and age, why does it matter what bits someone has got. Why is it so difficult to treat others with the respect that they deserve?
 

markindurham

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In family life the family court system automatically determines that mothers are best to look after children. A mother can simply imply or create a situation of apparent aggression by a father to gain custody / residence and hence cut the father from family life. This results in men loosing everything and yet still have to pay for their kids upbringing despite not being able to see their kids. I spent 8 years in family court to see my kids then keep them, so much effort against a system heavily bias against men. I saw many men at their wits end, complete wrecks and borderline suicidal. I won through acting in person and utter determination, despite there being 22 people representing the mother versus me on my own in court. The Judge shook my hand and congratulated me as I'd made history apparently!
I had a similar experience - not quite as many against me, but it took 2 1/2 years, and I couldn't see my youngest at all for the first 17 months...

I too represented myself, both for this and the divorce proceedings. I wasn't going to allow myself to be stitched up by the legal profession; after the first hearing I realised that it wasn't actually too intimidating; just keep calm, be factual & keep away from character assassination - let the other side destroy themselves...

But, we digress.

Back OT - the original posts made for grim reading. Things have to change. I work as the head person in a very male-dominated heavy engineering industry, which is very hands-on - and over the years have had a few female Engineers work as part of my team. As far as I'm concerned, they're team members; nothing more, nothing less. As with anyone else, if they can do the job, that's it. To date I've not been let down; they just get on with it, ask questions when needed (and are not afraid to ask questions or for assistance/guidance in good time if required) and progress their careers.
 

reddragon

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I have done interviewing for Engineers for many years, mostly for my own teams.

In my early career only men applied ever.

Over the years women began to apply and get interviews. Men were and are often better at interviews, more able to big themselves up whereas women are often less confident and often as due to resultant discrimination less experienced. I had so many arguments with my bosses when I chose the women for the job. The argument was 'he was better at interview', my argument 'she has much more potential and capability' and I increasingly won the argument! In those years I had such great mixed teams amidst male only teams :).

Nowadays of course diversity training levels that balance, but I do see too much 'gender quotas' denying the best candidate from getting the job but its both ways.

Same with bullying, it was always men of a certain age / type. Now women pull their weight equally in this field too!

This process hasn't fully filtered into heritage railways. It has on mine but I am sure not everywhere as the OP comments testify.
 

Egg Centric

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It is absolutely true that nobody should have to put up with the sort of behaviour shown towards her, and I admire her for continuing despite that. Fortunately at the couple of heritage with which I have been involved, female volunteers are in abundance and equality is happily achieved with no harassment issues.

And please bear with me here and read properly before shooting me down. I do wonder though whether some element of the reactions from the males with whom she worked has come about BECAUSE of the push towards removing anything resembling male-only societies and clubs from UK culture. I'm not for a minute suggesting that railways are or should be that at all, of course, and in my experience these places are much more enjoyable with a family atmosphere of men, women and families working.

But as a young lad I left the Boy Scouts at the point many years ago when it was agreed that girls could join: to me it was an organisation for boys only. And yet, if I had wanted to join the Girl Guides, that was not allowed, it's a girls only organisation. In a society where we have open tolerance for societies, clubs, gyms, leisure centres, choirs, "days" etc. for women only, and yet appear not to tolerate or promote anything that's for men only, it doesn't come as an entire surprise to me that some degree of resentment may build up among some.

Perhaps there are some out there who think that a heritage railway is their own "private men's club"? One would hope not but it could be.

Again, to clarify, that's no justification or excuse at all, merely seeking to look for any explanations other than merely the obvious ones.

An interesting analysis - I fully agree with you, both that we need more mens spaces (and more 'laddish' spaces too) but also that a heritage railway isn't it as it dooms the hobby long term.

I've taken my wife to a few heritage railways and have experienced sexism at least twice, although in neither case from staff but other enthusiasts. One example was when she was struggling to open a drop window door being told that 'females don't get mechanics'. They were meant as jokes though, so we can't be too hard on the well-meaning geriatrics that come out with these things... it was acceptable back in their day. Dispriting these days though.
 

Titfield

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I've taken my wife to a few heritage railways and have experienced sexism at least twice, although in neither case from staff but other enthusiasts. One example was when she was struggling to open a drop window door being told that 'females don't get mechanics'. They were meant as jokes though, so we can't be too hard on the well-meaning geriatrics that come out with these things... it was acceptable back in their day. Dispriting these days though.

Telling jokes, however innocuous they were intended to be, is particularly fraught. Likewise "pulling legs" or "banter" are the types of behaviour which are no longer appropriate.
 

Egg Centric

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Telling jokes, however innocuous they were intended to be, is particularly fraught. Likewise "pulling legs" or "banter" are the types of behaviour which are no longer appropriate.

Yup. On a heritage railway (unless you know everyone involved).

Which is why we do also need "laddish" outlets as well, because banter is absolutely appropriate amongst consenting adults, as it were.
 
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Telling jokes, however innocuous they were intended to be, is particularly fraught. Likewise "pulling legs" or "banter" are the types of behaviour which are no longer appropriate.
I've never found it difficult to tell a joke without being sexist.

It's sad how limited the capacity for humour some people have, that they feel they can't make jokes without verging into sexism or some other form of prejudice.
 

fireftrm

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Yup. On a heritage railway (unless you know everyone involved).

Which is why we do also need "laddish" outlets as well, because banter is absolutely appropriate amongst consenting adults, as it were.
I could not disagree more, unless you were trying to be satirical. If you weren't then you should be ashamed
 

TPO

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Certainly when I was involved in heritage rail some time ago I can concur with some of the views expressed about diversity issues; the volunteer breakdown was significantly skewed towards straight, white, cisgender males of usually around retirement age, which brings with it attitudes from an era past which we'd perhaps rather leave there.

Casual racism, sexism, ableism and transphobia were common occurrences (in the grand scheme of things) and homophobia probably was too to be fair, gay cis men were overrepresented in comparison to the 'norm' though and even then I should expect most of the time the team would have a modicum of respect and not say outwardly homophobic comments to my face.

Examples include a manager who unilaterally barred anyone with a certain disability from working in a particular role, against the advice on medical fitness from the doctor who undertook medical assessments, and regular inappropriate comments about the perceived masculinity of a trans female volunteer.

If I was still involved in heritage rail would I try to do more to change the diversity culture? Definitely, though its a particular challenge when you know recruitment of new volunteers is a challenge and you're already working trains to cover the service in order to avoid cancelling the advertised service and as a volunteer yourself you're having to then rearrange your personal diary outside of work to find time to do the management 'stuff' that you should have been doing. There are volunteers who will take umbrage at not being allowed to make sexist jokes any more, go off on a rant and give you a load of abuse, and refuse to come in again - probably for the best on a long-term cultural front but not ideal when you need staff to cover the operations.

I hope the sector's come on in the last half a decade or so, at least a bit. It does need a cultural shift to make sure at least the attitudes reflect the 21st century.

Disappointing to read Joanne’s experiences as the attitudes displayed seem to be several decades behind most of the rest of the world although the average age of those involved in heritage rail and the fact that many volunteering hobbies can attract people who have some sort of social issues may well have contributed. That said other voluntary work in other sectors I’ve been involved in over the last 20 years hasn’t displayed any of those traits, and some of that was physically demanding.
Perhaps time for the HRA to have an ‘Individual’ section/membership and act as something like a union to support those involved in the sector (if they don’t already!). It shouldn’t be needed, and I’m not a fan of some unions, but it can’t be denied that there is strength in numbers and that unions have won some great successes in workplaces to support and protect staff.

None of this surprises me unfortunately. Been there, had similar experiences, made it to regular steam driver then walked away. Admittedly well over a decade ago that I left heritage volunteering never to return, found other things to do with my spare time.

The irony in this present transcript coming from the HRA is not lost on me...... the HRA being a group I recall as very much old men who in my experience treated women as if they were the tealady......

TPO
 

Class 466

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I'm not a woman but can understand why women may be put off from volunteering - I tried volunteering at a railway nearish me in the south east and I was subjected to both ageist and homophobic abuse. Left after a short while when it became clear they weren't prepared to challenge the individual because "he's been here a long time, is great at what he does and is of a different generation".
 

reddragon

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It is very upsetting to read about peoples experiences on here, it's just not right. These 'isms' are widespread and affect everyone as everyone is different in some way or another to a particular sub group.

I volunteer on the GWsR. There are women in all departments, women in charge of departments, at Director level, 100% women operated running days, women working their way up in the Steam department.

People are people, you get all sorts and yes age demographics has an effect but the railway has strict rules & ethics that apply to everyone. I have seen volunteers banned from public facing roles, moved out of departments and even banned from the railway for unacceptable behaviours. Volunteers are acting as employees of the railway operating company so have to act like any business with strict rules.

I have seen volunteers uncomfortable with someone different visiting the railway, not to discriminate against them but to understand how to adjust to their needs and those differences are not just the ones you might expect!
 
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Titfield

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Left after a short while when it became clear they weren't prepared to challenge the individual because "he's been here a long time, is great at what he does and is of a different generation".

Going slightly off topic. I have concerns in general about the attitudes of some volunteers towards others irrespective of the other volunteers gender or sexual orientation, lifestyle choices.

Some volunteers appear to be given carte blanche to act as they wish without any regard to others because the railway fears they will take their "bat and ball home".

I wonder how many heritage railways actually follow up on volunteers ceasing to volunteer to enquire the reasons why and even if they did, if they had complaints of inappropriate behaviour, they would actually act?
 

eldomtom2

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I could not disagree more, unless you were trying to be satirical. If you weren't then you should be ashamed
Not him, but why? Would your reaction be different if he was talking about a need for spaces where women can be whatever the female equivalent of "laddish" is? I don't know if there's a term for it, but it definitely exists.
 
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Not him, but why? Would your reaction be different if he was talking about a need for spaces where women can be whatever the female equivalent of "laddish" is? I don't know if there's a term for it, but it definitely exists.
By "laddish" the original poster meant spaces where it'd be acceptable to tell sexist/bad taste jokes and acting in a sexist way towards women - See post #78

The idea that we need to preserve spaces where men can be sexist is somewhat absurd? Especially given the number of people sharing experiences of sexism and homophobia on the railway.

Toxic behaviour on heritage railways needs to be called out and eradicated, not justified as "laddish" or just banter.
 

reddragon

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By "laddish" the original poster meant spaces where it'd be acceptable to tell sexist/bad taste jokes and acting in a sexist way towards women - See post #78

The idea that we need to preserve spaces where men can be sexist is somewhat absurd? Especially given the number of people sharing experiences of sexism and homophobia on the railway.

Toxic behaviour on heritage railways needs to be called out and eradicated, not justified as "laddish" or just banter.
What a sexist response!

Men have every right to be laddish and behave how they wish in like company.

Why is anti men language, classifying all men as possibly being sexist, child abusing rapists acceptable, but the slightest comment regarding a female or slightest suggestion that she is not best suited for something not?

Equality goes BOTH ways and is not a selective process.
 

YorkshireBear

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What a sexist response!

Men have every right to be laddish and behave how they wish in like company.

Why is anti men language, classifying all men as possibly being sexist, child abusing rapists acceptable, but the slightest comment regarding a female or slightest suggestion that she is not best suited for something not?

Equality goes BOTH ways and is not a selective process.

Sorry, are you suggesting it is sexist to not allow men to be sexist?
 
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