Expired Railcard Penalty Notice?

[Flange Squeal]

I feel, as I experienced the situation first hand that calling said staff member a 'jobsworth' was completely just.

You travelled without a valid ticket, and got caught by someone whose job it is to ensure people have valid tickets. You agreed to the terms and conditions of your railcard at the time of purchase, but on this occasion travelled in breach of them.

I’d be genuinely interested to know how a revenue inspector is expected to know who is genuine and who isn’t just trying it on in circumstances like this. It seems the only way to be considered fair is to deal with everyone equally?

 

[Watershed]

You travelled without a valid ticket, and got caught by someone whose job it is to ensure people have valid tickets. You agreed to the terms and conditions of your railcard at the time of purchase, but on this occasion travelled in breach of them. Yes it may have been a genuine mistake, but ultimately you broke the law and that is no one else’s fault but your own.

However, RDG have decided not to send Railcard renewal emails out at the moment. So whilst they are not to blame, I am sure they were a contributing factor in the situation.

You wouldn't do an accident investigation and say "the driver went through a red signal, ultimately he broke the Rule Book, and that is no one else's fault but his". You look into causal factors.

 

[Flange Squeal]

You wouldn't do an accident investigation and say "the driver went through a red signal, ultimately he broke the Rule Book, and that is no one else's fault but his". You look into causal factors.

I agree, but that driver would still be dealt with in line with set procedures. The manager dealing with them wouldn’t be a “jobsworth” for putting them on the inevitable action plan after an incident, in the same way a revenue inspector isn’t a “jobsworth” for doing their job in dealing with an invalid ticket holder?

The contributory factors would only determine exactly what measures are put in place in that driver’s action plan afterwards - they won’t make the whole thing disappear. In the same way the TOC can decide how to deal with individual incidences like this.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If the railcard was held digitally / electronically, as mentioned by the OP in post #25, does it not automatically flag up that it has expired when the OP is attempting to purchase a railcard discounted ticket?

If not, why not?

 

[londonteacher]

If the railcard was held digitally / electronically, as mentioned by the OP in post #25, does it not automatically flag up that it has expired when the OP is attempting to purchase a railcard discounted ticket? If not, why not?

No, unfortunately not, when purchasing a ticket there is no requirement to put in a railcard number. The railcard is stored in a different app.

 

[AlterEgo]

As a ticket inspector perhaps surprisingly I have some sympathy with the OP. There are quite a lot of expired railcards floating about at the minute with people returning to the rails after a long break.

Personally I choose to welcome them back when I come across them and invite them to renew their card there and then, particularly if they're using the app. Others see the misuse as intentional and in some cases I'm sure they're right but these Northern fake "fixed penalties" go against everything I want to see in my industry.

Cards that expired months ago are one thing, less than a fortnight is easily an oversight and there is every chance that if the person who came across the OP was a TOC employed conductor or revenue inspector rather than a Northern contractor the matter would have played out very differently.

It doesn't change the facts of the situation, which basically are what they are, but I absolutely do have sympathy with the OP.

Very sensible as always. Especially the bit I bolded.

 

[furlong]

However, RDG have decided not to send Railcard renewal emails out at the moment.

Rubbish! The website still says::

If we have your email address, we’ll send you a reminder that your Railcard is due for renewal.

If a passenger was relying upon receiving that reminder and the company can't demonstrate such a reminder was actually sent, that would appear to be a compelling reason to expect discretion to be shown (and, failing that, something the ombudsman should consider). The elephant in the room though is why there wasn't some system for railcard holders who followed the train companies' guidance not to travel e.g. an ability to surrender their railcard and reinstate it later when the guidance changes (currently it remains "you should avoid making unnecessary trips").

 

[LowLevel]

Very sensible as always. Especially the bit I bolded.

My current view of it is basically this (not withstanding a poster earlier mentioning bias which I totally accept is a problem, sometimes unconsciously - any ticket inspector if they're honest will admit seeing someone approaching or board their train and think "here we go" only to find they're perfectly valid ticket wise and very pleasant to boot - it's the human condition and you need to be aware of it to combat it):

Person A has booked a table in the city to go and have a few drinks with their friends after a very long time. They're looking forward to it, in a good mood and they've decided to try out going on the train again rather than driving, the bus or a taxi. It's been a while but they book their ticket using the app (which remembers their railcard from 8 months ago when they last travelled), walk through the barriers without a hint of a problem, don their mask which is a pain but can't be helped (being able to have a drink and not have to drive is worth it) and board the train.

They sit down and are approached by a ticket inspector who says hello, checks their ticket and asks to see their railcard. They open the app and panic! It comes up as expired a few weeks ago.

"Not to worry" says the inspector "I've seen a lot of those at the moment. If you go on to the app you can renew your railcard, I'll pop back in a few minutes and if that's all sorted we'll say no more about it". He does so, it's done, he wishes passenger A a good evening and moves on. Passenger A thinks "oops! I've gotten away with that one - nice of him to let me off, though" and carries on with their day.

Let's bring a different inspector into the equation. They see the expired railcard and say "I'm afraid I believe you've shown intent to avoid the correct fare, you've paid £4.00 instead of £6.00. I'm going to have to take some details and we will write to you" and complete an MG11. A few weeks later the passenger receives a demand for £96.00 or the threat of being taken to court and fined or possibly even worse, and they've gotten upset about it on the day and it's spoiled their evening. They cough up under sufferance and don't bother coming back, and they tell all their friends how nasty the railway was to them.

At the moment I'd much rather let every minor irregularity like a recently expired railcard or an advance for 15 minutes ago go with an assumption of honesty with a word of advice or a simple resolution rather than taking any formal action and risk letting a few chancers through the net. We are playing a long game and every friendly approach will help just a little. In any case if someone renews their railcard in front of me even if they were chancing there are no refunds so that has put an end to that scheme at least for now.

 

[island]

I'm not so sure. Any conviction will typically prevent you from gaining visa-free access to countries such as the US and Australia.

Not correct. The USA ESTA scheme only blocks people with convictions for “crimes involving moral turpitude”, which fare evasion does not even get near (the questions were changed a few years ago). And any foreigner entering Australia needs a visa, whether holding a conviction or not. (The most common visa type being class 651 eVisitor or class 601 ETA which are relatively friction-free, but are still visas.)

On certain routes in Scotland it is highly unusual to find passengers with tickets let alone valid tickets. Fare evasion is absolutely rife in parts of Scotland and there seems to be no effective deterrent.

Unless you travel on a long distance train or are travelling to/from a barriered station there is little incentive to hold a ticket.

Indeed. People wishing for decriminalisation of fare evasion may wish to be careful what they wish for.

 

[glzckjord]

I agree, but that driver would still be dealt with in line with set procedures. The manager dealing with them wouldn’t be a “jobsworth” for putting them on the inevitable action plan after an incident, in the same way a revenue inspector isn’t a “jobsworth” for doing their job in dealing with an invalid ticket holder?

The contributory factors would only determine exactly what measures are put in place in that driver’s action plan afterwards - they won’t make the whole thing disappear. In the same way the TOC can decide how to deal with individual incidences like this.

Me referring to them as a jobsworth was simply due to the way I was spoken to, as well as the fact that not one bit of the situation was explained to me, one inspector told me that I'd have to buy a new ticket whilst the revenue inspector was just completely ****ting down my throat, lecturing me, telling me I'll end up in jail if I make the mistake again etc etc, I'm not 15 years of age, although I may look it, I don't need to be lectured upon making a genuine mistake (that will never happen again). I understand their frustration and they're just trying to get on with their job but maybe a little bit of human decency could've made the whole situation a whole lot smoother. I'm not at all disagreeing with the outcome of the entire situation, that's not my point, again, I just feel as if I was spoken to like I was a piece of dirt at the bottom of someone's shoe and it was sad as I was looking forward to enjoying my first day out with my girlfriend since early last year but unfortunately that wasn't the case.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed. People wishing for decriminalisation of fare evasion may wish to be careful what they wish for.

As far as I am aware, all trains in Scotland are scheduled to have staff onboard for ticket inspection. If there's some reason why that's not happening, e.g. because staff cannot access all parts of the train in some circumstances then perhaps there's a case there for a second member of staff per train at least for part of the day. If there is a security issue then perhaps there's a case for the ticket inspection staff to be accompanied by suitably professional security staff. If ticket gates aren't in operation for the full day then perhaps there's a case for extended hours. But overwhelmingly notwithstanding those points, which I totally accept would all incur additional costs, it's not awfully clear to me how this is a serious issue. It's not obvious to me that there are stations in Scotland that don't have ticket gates, or a plan to fit ticket gates, where their use would be practical. However I am prepared to accept there could well be some that I'm unaware of. If so, perhaps more ticket gates are sensible. Of course some platforms aren't gated but are likely to have manual ticket inspection before boarding. It sounds like the extra costs of these measures would be well worth it to me because of the other benefits they'd also bring.

As it is it still sounds rather better than the situation on many trains in England, or some light rail services, where there's nobody doing any ticket checking of any kind for a large majority of the time.

 

[Huntergreed]

On certain routes in Scotland it is highly unusual to find passengers with tickets let alone valid tickets. Fare evasion is absolutely rife in parts of Scotland and there seems to be no effective deterrent.

Unless you travel on a long distance train or are travelling to/from a barriered station there is little incentive to hold a ticket.

However we digress and if you want to start a new thread I'll did up some anecdotal evidence.

On the 10:13 GLC - CAR our conductor came through and checked tickets (first Scotrail check I've had in well over a year, definitely good to see them out checking and selling tickets again)

 

[scrapy]

Ive only been to Scotland a handful of times but when I've travelled on ScotRail there seems to be regulars who simply don't pay and ticket examiners simply shrug their shoulders and move on knowing they can't do anything. I suppose there's no point in filling out a TIR if they can't be prosecuted. I know there are regulars who do this in England but they usually get caught in the end.

 

[WesternLancer]

My current view of it is basically this (not withstanding a poster earlier mentioning bias which I totally accept is a problem, sometimes unconsciously - any ticket inspector if they're honest will admit seeing someone approaching or board their train and think "here we go" only to find they're perfectly valid ticket wise and very pleasant to boot - it's the human condition and you need to be aware of it to combat it):

Person A has booked a table in the city to go and have a few drinks with their friends after a very long time. They're looking forward to it, in a good mood and they've decided to try out going on the train again rather than driving, the bus or a taxi. It's been a while but they book their ticket using the app (which remembers their railcard from 8 months ago when they last travelled), walk through the barriers without a hint of a problem, don their mask which is a pain but can't be helped (being able to have a drink and not have to drive is worth it) and board the train.

They sit down and are approached by a ticket inspector who says hello, checks their ticket and asks to see their railcard. They open the app and panic! It comes up as expired a few weeks ago.

"Not to worry" says the inspector "I've seen a lot of those at the moment. If you go on to the app you can renew your railcard, I'll pop back in a few minutes and if that's all sorted we'll say no more about it". He does so, it's done, he wishes passenger A a good evening and moves on. Passenger A thinks "oops! I've gotten away with that one - nice of him to let me off, though" and carries on with their day.

Let's bring a different inspector into the equation. They see the expired railcard and say "I'm afraid I believe you've shown intent to avoid the correct fare, you've paid £4.00 instead of £6.00. I'm going to have to take some details and we will write to you" and complete an MG11. A few weeks later the passenger receives a demand for £96.00 or the threat of being taken to court and fined or possibly even worse, and they've gotten upset about it on the day and it's spoiled their evening. They cough up under sufferance and don't bother coming back, and they tell all their friends how nasty the railway was to them.

At the moment I'd much rather let every minor irregularity like a recently expired railcard or an advance for 15 minutes ago go with an assumption of honesty with a word of advice or a simple resolution rather than taking any formal action and risk letting a few chancers through the net. We are playing a long game and every friendly approach will help just a little. In any case if someone renews their railcard in front of me even if they were chancing there are no refunds so that has put an end to that scheme at least for now.

Very well put - and person A will probably happily take the train again and probably be happy to pay. Whilst the habitual fare evader will, I suspect, even if they gave a correct address and actually ever pay what the court demands, probably happily avoid fares again if they think they can get away with it. Which ones earns the railway more money over time....
But it does require staff discretion to be used with a degree of subtlety and skill.

 

[Bluejays]

I completely understand Lowlevels points, but I do think there is room for different approaches. Many conductors take his approach, check for railcards and are lenient if not in date. Many take the approach that I do, I ask to see the ticket and am happy with that, I've got no interest in seeing railcards. Some of our colleagues hardly check tickets, and a very small minority behave like RPI's . Vast majority of barriers will also be set to allow railcard tickets through unhindered.

While the approach taken to the op could be considered harsh, it is extremely unlucky to be caught first time by an inspector. Most people will have had several interactions with people like myself or lowlevel before getting caught. It may seem extreme at times. But I fully believe that the presence of the 'tough guys' does have an overall positive impact, both for fellow staff and ultimately the railway as a whole.

 

[WesternLancer]

I completely understand Lowlevels points, but I do think there is room for different approaches. Many conductors take his approach, check for railcards and are lenient if not in date. Many take the approach that I do, I ask to see the ticket and am happy with that, I've got no interest in seeing railcards. Some of our colleagues hardly check tickets, and a very small minority behave like RPI's . Vast majority of barriers will also be set to allow railcard tickets through unhindered.

While the approach taken to the op could be considered harsh, it is extremely unlucky to be caught first time by an inspector. Most people will have had several interactions with people like myself or lowlevel before getting caught. It may seem extreme at times. But I fully believe that the presence of the 'tough guys' does have an overall positive impact, both for fellow staff and ultimately the railway as a whole.

Interesting to read your post. But if you are saying you have no great interest in seeing the Railcard, you'd not notice the bearer may have forgotten to renew it, and prompt them to do so - thus increasing - statistically - their chances of falling foul of a check by an Inspector taking a harsher line?
Of course ultimately the Passenger's job to ensure their Railcard is valid.

 

[Haywain]

But if you are saying you have no great interest in seeing the Railcard, you'd not notice the bearer may have forgotten to renew it,

It goes further, in that @Bluejays would fail to find out they don't have a railcard at all and therefore no valid ticket which makes me wonder what the point is of checking tickets at all.

 

[Bluejays]

Interesting to read your post. But if you are saying you have no great interest in seeing the Railcard, you'd not notice the bearer may have forgotten to renew it, and prompt them to do so - thus increasing - statistically - their chances of falling foul of a check by an Inspector taking a harsher line?
Of course ultimately the Passenger's job to ensure their Railcard is valid.

I do agree that it wouldn't make all passengers check their railcards. But I think a lot of passengers would. They may have been at a rush when at barriers and not thought about railcard. But when sitting down on the train and hearing someone coming through for tickets, they're more likely to think railcard aswell. I can remember the pangs of fear I used to have when travelling on dodgy splits or advances , or relying on the picture of railcard because I'd left it at home. I'd imagine a fair few are very relieved not to be asked, but jump straight on and renew to make sure they don't end up feeling like that again.

Some will be glad I didn't ask, and not do anything. At some point those individuals may face an RPI, who can make it a much more expensive mistake than I ever could.

 

[LowLevel]

It goes further, in that @Bluejays would fail to find out they don't have a railcard at all and therefore no valid ticket which makes me wonder what the point is of checking tickets at all.

For a guard, it's an ice breaker, an opportunity to give someone the chance to talk to you without feeling like they're interrupting you in the middle of something, a way of getting a feel for where people are going in the case of disruption, making sure people are on the right train and offering advice about connections, and right at the end of that, an opportunity to protect some of the Company's revenue if you can without causing a riot.

Plenty of good reason for onboard checks beyond making sure someone has a valid ticket.

 

[WesternLancer]

For a guard, it's an ice breaker, an opportunity to give someone the chance to talk to you without feeling like they're interrupting you in the middle of something, a way of getting a feel for where people are going in the case of disruption, making sure people are on the right train and offering advice about connections, and right at the end of that, an opportunity to protect some of the Company's revenue if you can without causing a riot.

Plenty of good reason for onboard checks beyond making sure someone has a valid ticket.

Yes, def part of wider good customer service in my view (as well as helping make the argument that visible staff presence on trains is generally important for wider things like service, passenger personal safety - in addition to train safety I mean, etc)

 

[Bluejays]

It goes further, in that @Bluejays would fail to find out they don't have a railcard at all and therefore no valid ticket which makes me wonder what the point is of checking tickets at all.

There are plenty of reasons. Every ticket i clip or mark can't be refunded or used again. A lot of the routes I work have quite short sections between station stops, what's important to me is to put myself in front of as many people as possible. That's how I get the 'pay when challenged' revenue that would otherwise walk straight off. It's also how I can identify and report the refuse to pay types.

The reality of course is that everyone is different. Many of my colleagues are like lowlevel, they are gregarious and chatty and are good at those conversations with passengers. They leave a very positive impression of the railway and do a great job. Some of us aren't quite so gregarious, if I have those type of conversations I tend to just sound condescending and people take it as a lecture.

Judging by your post im guessing that you're closer to my end of of the personality Spectrum than you are to 'lowlevels'

 

[HSP 2]

When the OP pays the money to the ToC would he be able to then put an appeal in against the cost that he has paid with no come back?

 

[LowLevel]

There are plenty of reasons. Every ticket i clip or mark can't be refunded or used again. A lot of the routes I work have quite short sections between station stops, what's important to me is to put myself in front of as many people as possible. That's how I get the 'pay when challenged' revenue that would otherwise walk straight off. It's also how I can identify and report the refuse to pay types.

The reality of course is that everyone is different. Many of my colleagues are like lowlevel, they are gregarious and chatty and are good at those conversations with passengers. They leave a very positive impression of the railway and do a great job. Some of us aren't quite so gregarious, if I have those type of conversations I tend to just sound condescending and people take it as a lecture.

Judging by your post im guessing that you're closer to my end of of the personality Spectrum than you are to 'lowlevels'

I am a man of a thousand faces, all of them the same

My actual personality is fairly quiet, shy and I hate unanticipated conversations and crowded places, I have however spent my whole working life dealing with the public and have found that engaging with them and being proactive pays back many times over when the brown stuff hits the fan. By working in the way I do I make sure I have people on my side if I need them to be and as a guard I am far more concerned about that than the nuances of ticket validity.

You could either see it as being customer service orientated or being a reader of people and a manipulator, it's probably both.

We go for the same outcome in different ways I suspect, and that's fine - it's whatever works for you.

 

[Bluejays]

I am a man of a thousand faces, all of them the same

My actual personality is fairly quiet, shy and I hate unanticipated conversations and crowded places, I have however spent my whole working life dealing with the public and have found that engaging with them and being proactive pays back many times over when the brown stuff hits the fan. By working in the way I do I make sure I have people on my side if I need them to be and as a guard I am far more concerned about that than the nuances of ticket validity.

You could either see it as being customer service orientated or being a reader of people and a manipulator, it's probably both.

We go for the same outcome in different ways I suspect, and that's fine - it's whatever works for you.

Very true, a lot easier to have passengers onside!
Apologies for complete mischaracterising you

Would also echo your sympathy for the OP. I'm glad we have RPI's around, they are extremely useful and needed. But if it was his first time forgetting the card I definitely feel for him, it's a very harsh lesson to learn.

 

[Llanigraham]

However, RDG have decided not to send Railcard renewal emails out at the moment. So whilst they are not to blame, I am sure they were a contributing factor in the situation.

My Disabled Persons railcard expired last June but I didn't get any reminder of that, and have never received any in past years either. It matters not anyway as it is always the holders responsibility to check