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Failed lner Stevenage

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800001

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You all realise that the provision and maintenance agreements that allow Hitachi to be this protective were agreed by the DfT, yes? Those contracts moved a lot of the risk traditionally borne by the ROSCO and TOCs into Agility's court and the "protectiveness" on their part is them acting to minimise their exposure to the risk. The fact that it doesn't play well with the railway's operational flexibility is - to be blunt - not their problem.


Are we even sure that this is the case or are we manufacturing a big conspiracy out of one statement of discontent? I would imagine that the emergency services would assess the risk of conducting a rescue and act accordingly - and without regard for contractual restrictions on who can and cannot "touch" the train.
As DanNcl say, Before anyone is allowed to go under am 80x train, certain things have to be done, a call to Hitachi Maintenance controllers advises what needs doing as there is certain areas underneath which if someone comes into contact with, the components maybe electrically live.

I did wonder what an Azuma was doing at Stevenage P3 with 'Do Not Move' flags attached. This was about 21:00 last night. I didn't note the number but it was a 5-car.

Not a problem to leave it in P3 on a Sunday as there are fewer trains running so the slows will be able to cope fine. I suspect if it had happened on a weekday it would've been moved faster.
Unit is 800202
 
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ComUtoR

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Zero is better and if someone wishes to touch the train to attempt to rescue someone who is dying, knowing that by doing so they're potentially taking a risk

And who should be liable for that risk ? Hitachi or the person knowing that they are taking that risk ?


At the end of the day though, do you seriously think someone is going to die from trying to rescue someone from underneath a stationary train?

Sadly, yes. There is equipment under units that can cause death. Especially for someone like me in 3rd rail land.

The rescuers don't usually die when they rescue people from underneath any other type of train,

Because rescuers do die trying to save others. We don't run into burning buildings, we call the fire brigade. We don't jump into dangerous water, we call the lifeguard or the RNLI (or other). Sadly there are too many cases where someone tring to rescue someone else has ended up with an extra body rather than saving lives. One of the first rules of first aid is to ensure that the area is safe before attempting rescue. This includes trains.

why would it be any different for an 80x?

I don't sign them but on another unit I sign there is a risk of death when going under the unit and specific steps need to be taken before anyone goes below sole bar. We had specific instructions not to left the firebrigade or anyone else approach, even if they needed to.

Sorry to burst your bubble but going under units is very high risk.
 

ainsworth74

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And there we have a major issue. Recovering a failed train in Hertfordshire should not require a team to travel from Edinburgh. There should be teams able to handle this in the South East, the fact that there aren't shows a lack of planning on the railway's part.

The joys of a fragmented railway.
How much work does this skate team have usually? I rather suspect that there's probably only enough work for one team. In which case why would it be sensible to spend extra funding on extra teams?

It's the same reason we don't have breakdown cranes at every major yard and depot anymore. We don't derail very many trains and when we do using jacks is usually easier anyway.
 

DanNCL

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Yes, it's entirely possible someone will die going under a stationary train. I'm not sure you fully understand the hazards. 80x are different as stated above. There are exposed live components as far as I understand. If it were safe, and life was at risk, BTP wouldn't care who owns the train or what Hitachi says.
I do understand the risks and I wasn't for one second suggesting that anyone should be forced to go under a train, simply saying that in a life or death situation, and only in a life or death situation, if someone wanted to do so to rescue someone, knowing the risks, they shouldn't be prevented from doing so.

I have been in a life or death situation where I would have died were it not for someone else choosing to put their own life at risk, even though in my case it wasn't on the railway, I still understand the human side of this.

The last 180 to go up in smoke at Welwyn North. Herts fire and rescue had to wait for the GWR fitters to come (under blue lights) from old oak common. Took a while. The also needed confirmation from network rail the juice was off. So nothing really has change. I guess if the fire was putting lives in danger they may have acted differently but the train was evacuated so let it burn. (If you see what I mean)
This is exactly the same sort of thing I'm saying should be accepted for the 80xs, rescue all of the people immediately, then leave everything else until an engineer arrives.

And who should be liable for that risk ? Hitachi or the person knowing that they are taking that risk ?
I don't think Hitachi should be liable for someone choosing to attempt to rescue someone under a train no. I don't understand the obsession there seems to be on the railway with having someone liable for everything.

I don't sign them but on another unit I sign there is a risk of death when going under the unit and specific steps need to be taken before anyone goes below sole bar. We had specific instructions not to left the firebrigade or anyone else approach, even if they needed to.

Sorry to burst your bubble but going under units is very high risk.
I'm not disputing it's high risk, and as I said further up I wasn't suggesting anyone should be forced to put their life at risk.

--
I am not going to reply to any futher posts on this matter as I don't wish to drag the thread further off topic.

How much work does this skate team have usually? I rather suspect that there's probably only enough work for one team. In which case why would it be sensible to spend extra funding on extra teams?

It's the same reason we don't have breakdown cranes at every major yard and depot anymore. We don't derail very many trains and when we do using jacks is usually easier anyway.
I agree there likely isn't much work for them, I'm surprised it even has a dedicated team I'd have expected it to be people in other teams who happened to be trained on it, but I would have thought there'd at the very least be people based in England that can do it, and not just Scotland.
 

hexagon789

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If it does I think Hitachi should foot the bill. Unfortunately in reality it's likely to be the train operator that pays.
Quite. Though presumably that will change in the future, otherwise payments would be doing even more of a roundabout turn than now.


Are we even sure that this is the case or are we manufacturing a big conspiracy out of one statement of discontent? I would imagine that the emergency services would assess the risk of conducting a rescue and act accordingly - and without regard for contractual restrictions on who can and cannot "touch" the train.
Wouldn't imagine the restrictions go as far as that surely - just railstaff can't attempt any fault rectifying themselves, only Hitachi's people
 

800001

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Quite. Though presumably that will change in the future, otherwise payments would be doing even more of a roundabout turn than now.



Wouldn't imagine the restrictions go as far as that surely - just railstaff can't attempt any fault rectifying themselves, only Hitachi's people
Rail staff are not allowed underneath an 80x for any reason until they have contacted Hitachi maintenance and been authorised to do so, as mentioned a few tinea, there is areas of the train underneath which are electrically live and can cause harm if someone comes into contact with it.
 

hexagon789

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Rail staff are not allowed underneath an 80x for any reason until they have contacted Hitachi maintenance and been authorised to do so, as mentioned a few tinea, there is areas of the train underneath which are electrically live and can cause harm if someone comes into contact with it.
I was talking more about fault rectification generally is Hitachi only but that in an emergency it isn't Hitachi only that can 'touch' the underbody stuff subject to the usual procedures for that being made. I assume that similar would apply to any train that has electrically live elements - that they have to be isolated before anyone gets near, maintenance staff or otherwise.
 

GB

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There is more than one skate fitting team...or at least more staff trained to fit skates. There was a failed freight at Crewe on either Thursday or Friday that needed 6 skates and that team came from Wigan.
 

D365

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So anyone can be an engineer (or a technician for that matter), if an HR department decides so?

No wonder this country has no respect for engineers.
Eh? My reply was intended in jest!

Are hands-on rolling stock staff not normally known as ”train fitters”?
 

Horizon22

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Eh? My reply was intended in jest!

Are hands-on rolling stock staff not normally known as ”train fitters”?

Hitachi staff really don't like being called fitters... I've heard them known as "TRIs" but I can't for the life of me remember the acronym.
 

43096

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Hitachi staff really don't like being called fitters... I've heard them known as "TRIs" but I can't for the life of me remember the acronym.
TRI was originally a BR term. It stands for "Technical Riding Inspector".
 

malc-c

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In this theoretical discussion over moving trains in life threatening scenarios I don't think you can compare the 180 at Welwyn North in the same way as a fatality or trapped individual under an 80x. By all reports, by the time the 180 stopped at the station, the train wasn't in full flame and there was no major risk to life or limb at the time of the evacuation. By the time I had got there and documented the event there was still smoke rising from the hatches between the bogies indicating something was still alight. Whilst a speed restriction was in place, it was some time after that a block was put in place so a full inspection and plan of action (with GWR representative present) was taken, which in this case was to isolate the last car and slowly run into the sidings at Welwyn Garden City to free up the line, however as can be seen, there is some evidence of some form of fire suppression being used given the white powder on the tracks, but I can't comment on this being as a result form the fire crews or any onboard fire control system.


Now I'm guessing (as I'm not in the industry) that if this had been a case where someone had fell / jumped and was trapped under a train, that the emergency services may have reacted differently, but then you can't just jump down on to a live running rail until it's safe to do so.... But I would suggest that taking into account line blocks etc it would be very frustrating for the emergency services to be standing around not able to move or lift a train until someone from the train manufactures arrived on site and gave permission, or was responsible for throwing a simple isolation switch (I'm probably over simplifying things here and its probably a lot more involved) . All I know is that if I were the parent and it was my son or daughter, that post inquest it was stated they had died at the scene as a result of this delay, and if they had been extracted and taken to hospital would have lived (or had a very high probability of doing so) then I for one would be holding someone liable, be that the manufacture, or the Minister who agreed to this clause as part of the negotiations.

This discussion has highlighted one other matter, and that is with all modern stock being complete units, transportation of failed components, either power units or coaches is so much more of a logistical nightmare. It's not as if you could easily separate the power car, then use a thunderbird loco to drag the train for the rest of the journey whilst the offending car or coach is placed on a road transporter. So the use of a sledge at a very much reduced speed is required to move the complete train, with a lot of disruption. I would have thought that the question of possible breakdown locations would have been discussed at the time of introduction, but if there is only one option and that is 400 mile North of the incident then that must be bad planning ?

I just want to close this post by just reiterating the point that I'm not in the industry, and thus not aware of the full procedures etc, but based opinions on what I've read here and what I witnessed at the incident at Welwyn North. If I have things out of context then I apologies in advance...
 

DarloRich

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And there we have a major issue. Recovering a failed train in Hertfordshire should not require a team to travel from Edinburgh. There should be teams able to handle this in the South East, the fact that there aren't shows a lack of planning on the railway's part.
There are southern based teams. However if they are already on site dealing with an issue or out of hours or the skates they hold are already under a train etc etc etc they cant attend. The note should say the nearest available team ( perhaps with free skates) was in Millerhill.
 

Grumpy Git

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Silly comment.

Even in BR days there weren't teams which could do everything everywhere.

So a fragmented railway improves the situation?

In my experience (not railway industry), when several separate parties are involved and something goes wrong, more time is spent arguing about where the blame lies (and hence who's paying to put it right) than actually getting on with it.
 

A0wen

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So a fragmented railway improves the situation?

In my experience (not railway industry), when several separate parties are involved and something goes wrong, more time is spent arguing about where the blame lies (and hence who's paying to put it right) than actually getting on with it.

Your experience differs to mine then.

Reality is when there are contractual obligations in place it's really easy - you execute the contract.

Hitachi have signed up to providing rolling stock along with maintenance and support - in return for that there are some T&Cs, such as who can do what with the sets, but that's reasonable. Otherwise there is the risk of damage being caused by the wrong people.

You seem to think a monolithic railway would be more efficient - we had a monolithic railway in BR and it's questionable whether it was more efficient.
 

Grumpy Git

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You seem to think a monolithic railway would be more efficient - we had a monolithic railway in BR and it's questionable whether it was more efficient.

A monolithic railway certainly appeals to the (former) shareholders when the Golden Goose gets shot as in the formation of GBR!
 

CBlue

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It's not like you could just drag a failed HST off either - and good luck fitting that coupling bar without a forklift truck.

Feels like a few are under the effects of rose-tinted laser eye surgery.
 

A0wen

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A monolithic railway certainly appeals to the (former) shareholders when the Golden Goose gets shot as in the formation of GBR!

That's largely an opinion bred out of ignorance.

The simple fact is many of the things the public blame the TOCs for isn't actually under control of the TOCs, specifically:

- timetabling and connections is a mix of Network Rail and the franchises under which the trains are operated
- the rolling stock, largely defined by the DfT
- ticket prices, 40% of fares including standard returns, season tickets and commuter fares are government regulated. The fares which are often the cheapest i.e. advances and savers are actually unregulated.

It's suited the narrative of too many people to blame the things they don't like on the private sector without actually understanding who really is responsible.
 

northernbelle

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It's not like you could just drag a failed HST off either - and good luck fitting that coupling bar without a forklift truck.

Feels like a few are under the effects of rose-tinted laser eye surgery.
Indeed. And it's a misnomer that trains having to wait for a specialist fitter to attend before it can continue is simply a result of Hitachi's over-sensitivity.

I can think of countless other occasions (for example when a train strikes an object or has a particular fault) where a driver has been instructed to wait until the arrival of the TOC's own engineering teams to make the problem good or check that there isn't a problem.

What has changed is the level of technical expertise trained into the driver grade compared with years ago.
 
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Failed Unit

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Indeed. And it's a misnomer that trains having to wait for a specialist fitter to attend before it can continue is simply a result of Hitachi's over-sensitivity.

I can think of countless other occasions (for example when a train strikes an object or has a particular fault) where a driver has been instructed to wait until the arrival of the TOC's own engineering teams to make the problem good.

What has changed is the level of technical expertise trained into the driver grade compared with years ago.
It may be like dealing with cars now. Keeping it simple we could all change the spark plugs years go, hash up something to get you home after the fan belt broke. Now everything is more complex the same hash up could cause a lot of damage with the modern engine management systems.
 

northernbelle

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It may be like dealing with cars now. Keeping it simple we could all change the spark plugs years go, hash up something to get you home after the fan belt broke. Now everything is more complex the same hash up could cause a lot of damage with the modern engine management systems.
Yes, that's a good analogy! There is a price to pay for a lot of this wizardry.
 

ComUtoR

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I can think of countless other occasions (for example when a train strikes an object or has a particular fault) where a driver has been instructed to wait until the arrival of the TOC's own engineering teams to make the problem good or check that there isn't a problem.

When I first started (over 15yrs ago) If you hit an object you would need to have your unit checked by a rolling stock technician.


What has changed is the level of technical expertise trained into the driver grade compared with years ago.

I would half agree. Rolling stock has moved on from days of old. They are more than just 'air and amps'. I also hate to get the old L&R involved but TOCs take their liability seriously now. Chuck in 'risk aversion' and you can see why the industry has evolved across the board.
 

24Grange

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Its still at Hitchin down yard, this lunchtime. They seem to have tucked it away beside the old depot? building to try and get it out of sight. You can see it from McDonalds or passing down trains. A blue JCB was also loading ballast or gravel in the up yard into a 66 hauled box wagons when I was waiting for my train also.
 

800001

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Its still at Hitchin down yard, this lunchtime. They seem to have tucked it away beside the old depot? building to try and get it out of sight. You can see it from McDonalds or passing down trains. A blue JCB was also loading ballast or gravel in the up yard into a 66 hauled box wagons when I was waiting for my train also.
This unit is moving as 8Q54 Hitchin to Bounds Green at 00:43 26/06/21
 

bgrtmd225

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This unit is now making its way back to us at XGD [Bounds Green] as 5Q54. Currently 17L passing Bayford. (26/06/2021 03:43)

In this theoretical discussion over moving trains in life threatening scenarios I don't think you can compare the 180 at Welwyn North in the same way as a fatality or trapped individual under an 80x. By all reports, by the time the 180 stopped at the station, the train wasn't in full flame and there was no major risk to life or limb at the time of the evacuation. By the time I had got there and documented the event there was still smoke rising from the hatches between the bogies indicating something was still alight. Whilst a speed restriction was in place, it was some time after that a block was put in place so a full inspection and plan of action (with GWR representative present) was taken, which in this case was to isolate the last car and slowly run into the sidings at Welwyn Garden City to free up the line, however as can be seen, there is some evidence of some form of fire suppression being used given the white powder on the tracks, but I can't comment on this being as a result form the fire crews or any onboard fire control system.


Now I'm guessing (as I'm not in the industry) that if this had been a case where someone had fell / jumped and was trapped under a train, that the emergency services may have reacted differently, but then you can't just jump down on to a live running rail until it's safe to do so.... But I would suggest that taking into account line blocks etc it would be very frustrating for the emergency services to be standing around not able to move or lift a train until someone from the train manufactures arrived on site and gave permission, or was responsible for throwing a simple isolation switch (I'm probably over simplifying things here and its probably a lot more involved) . All I know is that if I were the parent and it was my son or daughter, that post inquest it was stated they had died at the scene as a result of this delay, and if they had been extracted and taken to hospital would have lived (or had a very high probability of doing so) then I for one would be holding someone liable, be that the manufacture, or the Minister who agreed to this clause as part of the negotiations.

This discussion has highlighted one other matter, and that is with all modern stock being complete units, transportation of failed components, either power units or coaches is so much more of a logistical nightmare. It's not as if you could easily separate the power car, then use a thunderbird loco to drag the train for the rest of the journey whilst the offending car or coach is placed on a road transporter. So the use of a sledge at a very much reduced speed is required to move the complete train, with a lot of disruption. I would have thought that the question of possible breakdown locations would have been discussed at the time of introduction, but if there is only one option and that is 400 mile North of the incident then that must be bad planning ?

I just want to close this post by just reiterating the point that I'm not in the industry, and thus not aware of the full procedures etc, but based opinions on what I've read here and what I witnessed at the incident at Welwyn North. If I have things out of context then I apologies in advance...
I was there this day and provided some help to the services involved. Working at Bounds Green we were given some basic training on the units as Hull Trains stabled one overnight here. Was a very interesting day to say the least.

One also decided to toast the engine at Grantham too that I was also called out for:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/365512jm/45116101412/
 

800001

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I know timing loads most of the time don’t tell the truth, but was it really pulled at 8mph all the way? I’m guessing it was if it was on skates.

It was on skates, wasn't pulled, moved under own power, had to stop after going over each set of points and at other regular intervals for the skate to be checked.
 
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