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Failure to show railcard (valid!!)

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Haywain

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from what i have discovered there would have been no grounds for prosecution in a court for a forgotten railcard
You need to be aware that there would be grounds for prosecution if the railcard was not produced so, based on the fact the train company were acting in the belief that you had not produced a valid railcard, the post was correct. But the train company had apparently overlooked your reply and you have got the correct result.
 

MollyMyers1

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16
Location
Portsmouth
You need to be aware that there would be grounds for prosecution if the railcard was not produced so, based on the fact the train company were acting in the belief that you had not produced a valid railcard, the post was correct. But the train company had apparently overlooked your reply and you have got the correct result.
I made VERY clear in my original post i did possess a railcard and that i sent a letter with evidence. I have also made a complaint to the train company which told me that those letters are randomly generated, and therefore was not a personalised letter to my situation. So given my situation, the persons posts were not correct, and not relevant to my specific situation, where i did nothing wrong.

I made VERY clear in my original post i did possess a railcard and that i sent a letter with evidence. I have also made a complaint to the train company which told me that those letters are randomly generated, and therefore was not a personalised letter to my situation. So given my situation, the persons posts were not correct, and not relevant to my specific situation, where i did nothing wrong.
It would have been appropriate in a situation where i did not have a railcard which i did. Again, not helpful here.

You need to be aware that there would be grounds for prosecution if the railcard was not produced so, based on the fact the train company were acting in the belief that you had not produced a valid railcard, the post was correct. But the train company had apparently overlooked your reply and you have got the correct result.
Also an NIP does not mean you ARE definitely going to court or will be summoned its used as a method of urgency more than anything to ensure people respond to their letters. Usually matters are settled outside of court, or do not even get to that point at all, like in my situation. It is not fair for someone to use fear-mongering when someone is asking for actual advice RELEVANT to their situation.
 
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WesternLancer

Established Member
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6,996
I made VERY clear in my original post i did possess a railcard and that i sent a letter with evidence. I have also made a complaint to the train company which told me that those letters are randomly generated, and therefore was not a personalised letter to my situation. So given my situation, the persons posts were not correct, and not relevant to my specific situation, where i did nothing wrong.


It would have been appropriate in a situation where i did not have a railcard which i did. Again, not helpful here.
Hi Molly
I think the point being made is that the railway's regs require you to be able to physically show the railcard when asked if on a train or at station etc (but the T&Cs do now allow one grace appeal per year if for some reason you have a valid Railcard but can't show it - eg forgot it, or had it on phone but phone flat etc, this is a relatively new concession started 2 or 3 years ago).

Just pointing this out as it would mean that if this happened again within a year, as I understand it, they would not (or might not) accept the explanation that you had forgotten it etc, so worth you knowing that - but I suspect you already do as it looks like you looked into this pretty thoroughly when you were trying to get things sorted out before and after they wrote to you etc.

Like I say, good to hear it is sorted.
 

MollyMyers1

Member
Joined
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Messages
16
Location
Portsmouth
Hi Molly
I think the point being made is that the railway's regs require you to be able to physically show the railcard when asked if on a train or at station etc (but the T&Cs do now allow one grace appeal per year if for some reason you have a valid Railcard but can't show it - eg forgot it, or had it on phone but phone flat etc, this is a relatively new concession started 2 or 3 years ago).

Just pointing this out as it would mean that if this happened again within a year, as I understand it, they would not (or might not) accept the explanation that you had forgotten it etc, so worth you knowing that - but I suspect you already do as it looks like you looked into this pretty thoroughly when you were trying to get things sorted out before and after they wrote to you etc.

Like I say, good to hear it is sorted.
Trust me, i am not renewing my railcard and can’t wait to pass my driving test so i never have to use that railway with such appalling policies and communication.
 

Haywain

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14,877
Trust me, i am not renewing my railcard and can’t wait to pass my driving test so i never have to use that railway with such appalling policies and communication.
It’s up to you how sensitive you are about all this, but you made a mistake and the train company made a mistake - honours even?
 
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To you i just want to say, i didn’t appreciate your fear-mongering and feel that you are rather uneducated on these matters clearly, because nothing you said happened, and from what i have discovered there would have been no grounds for prosecution in a court for a forgotten railcard, maybe you have got confused with other situations. I have seen you replying in other peoples posts, and you seem to only want to reply in a way that comes across as rude and negative and quite frankly NOT helpful. Not sure if you are on here to be the king of doom or if you are just bored, or just because you love trains. But glad i didn’t listen to you :)
Hear Hear, Far too many people on this site seem to revel in fear mongering and telling people that no matter how trivial their mistake, they're absolutely screwed, will get a criminal record etc etc. This is rarely if ever the case.

I've got a railcard on my phone and it's an awful app, if there's no signal then it doesn't always work either. A prosecution and criminal record for forgetting to download the app before a journey is absolutely ridiculous. Clearly the prosecution was never going anywhere.
 

Vespa

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20 Dec 2019
Messages
1,576
Location
Merseyside
Moral of the story in my opinion, a physical railcard is better as it won't change phones or run out of battery.
By all means take a photo of it but don't rely on electronica to back you up.

You got lucky Molly, move on and learn from it.
 
Joined
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Messages
345
Location
Inverness
Moral of the story in my opinion, a physical railcard is better as it won't change phones or run out of battery.
By all means take a photo of it but don't rely on electronica to back you up.

You got lucky, move on and learn from it.
Got lucky? The company sent legal threats that weren't actually applicable (or enforceable) for an honest mistake.

If customers can't be expected to rely on electronics then maybe they shouldn't offer a mobile railcard? It's not really acceptable to threaten passengers with a criminal record every time their phone dies while on a train...
 

MollyMyers1

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2020
Messages
16
Location
Portsmouth
Hear Hear, Far too many people on this site seem to revel in fear mongering and telling people that no matter how trivial their mistake, they're absolutely screwed, will get a criminal record etc etc. This is rarely if ever the case.

I've got a railcard on my phone and it's an awful app, if there's no signal then it doesn't always work either. A prosecution and criminal record for forgetting to download the app before a journey is absolutely ridiculous. Clearly the prosecution was never going anywhere.
Moral of the story in my opinion, a physical railcard is better as it won't change phones or run out of battery.
By all means take a photo of it but don't rely on electronica to back you up.

You got lucky Molly, move on and learn from it.
Hear Hear, Far too many people on this site seem to revel in fear mongering and telling people that no matter how trivial their mistake, they're absolutely screwed, will get a criminal record etc etc. This is rarely if ever the case.
I've got a railcard on my phone and it's an awful app, if there's no signal then it doesn't always work either. A prosecution and criminal record for forgetting to download the app before a journey is absolutely ridiculous. Clearly the prosecution was never going anywhere.
I absolutely agree. I got the digital one because 1 physical card is simply too easy to lose, it should be one there when you download the app and login, instead i had to get a new code, despite being logged in on my account. Its their responsibility to improve their app.

Moral of the story in my opinion, a physical railcard is better as it won't change phones or run out of battery.
By all means take a photo of it but don't rely on electronica to back you up.

You got lucky Molly, move on and learn from it.
Well even the train company disagree with you, and believe i have done nothing wrong, and have apologised and are willing to compensate me for the money i paid out to send them various letters. Clearly you aren’t as clued up on it all as you think.

Moral of the story in my opinion, a physical railcard is better as it won't change phones or run out of battery.
By all means take a photo of it but don't rely on electronica to back you up.

You got lucky Molly, move on and learn from it.
Its easy to try and take moral high ground when you aren’t the one in this situation. No empathy for an honest mistake of forgetting something, you aren’t helpful and shouldn’t even be on this thread. You would feel very different if this was you.

Got lucky? The company sent legal threats that weren't actually applicable (or enforceable) for an honest mistake.

If customers can't be expected to rely on electronics then maybe they shouldn't offer a mobile railcard? It's not really acceptable to threaten passengers with a criminal record every time their phone dies while on a train...
100%. We are customers at the end of the day paying for a service that they need to improve. Not be punished for.
 
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WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
Trust me, i am not renewing my railcard and can’t wait to pass my driving test so i never have to use that railway with such appalling policies and communication.
Understandable. Very sad that the railway industry seems unable to fully understand that the way they tend to treat innocent errors as not being that different to deliberate fare evaders means that they put off many potential customers. Combined with a desperate desire of many commuters to not return to the daily commute - it's not a great situation in my view. Of course none of this is helped by the fact that far too many people do seem to regard paying a train fare as an optional extra.... but that's another thread.

Mind you, when you get sorted with your car you'll probably find that lots of crazy ANPR vehicle recognition systems and their operators are even more difficult to deal with than the railway, when things go wrong....:{
 

MollyMyers1

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2020
Messages
16
Location
Portsmouth
Understandable. Very sad that the railway industry seems unable to fully understand that the way they tend to treat innocent errors as not being that different to deliberate fare evaders means that they put off many potential customers. Combined with a desperate desire of many commuters to not return to the daily commute - it's not a great situation in my view. Of course none of this is helped by the fact that far too many people do seem to regard paying a train fare as an optional extra.... but that's another thread.

Mind you, when you get sorted with your car you'll probably find that lots of crazy ANPR vehicle recognition systems and their operators are even more difficult to deal with than the railway, when things go wrong....:{
I’ll look forward to that then haha! I think people who deliberately do not pay fares should 100% have consequences, i think for me being treated by the company at first as doing the same when i paid for a ticket and have a railcard is what really angered me. But anyway, glad they saw their errors and its been put to bed.
 

Vespa

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2019
Messages
1,576
Location
Merseyside
Got lucky? The company sent legal threats that weren't actually applicable (or enforceable) for an honest mistake.

If customers can't be expected to rely on electronics then maybe they shouldn't offer a mobile railcard? It's not really acceptable to threaten passengers with a criminal record every time their phone dies while on a train...
Whatever the right and wrongs of the circumstances, the OP should be in possession of a railcard to show on demand as laid out in the terms and conditions, when you install a digital railcard you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions of it, including showing it on demand or when buying a discount ticket you would be expected to show it to a ticket booth staff before purchase, if you buy from a TVM it does remind you to carry a valid railcard with you at all time when travelling, when buy the ticket you are agreeing to the TVM T&C.

16-15 Railcard terms and conditions will be under section 2.8 and 2.9

The OP is upset because she was pulled up for her own mistake, her responsibility, not the railway staff, that's what the appeals process is for, in my opinion she did get lucky as the railway company was being reasonable and agreed to drop it.

An electronic railcard is good when the phone is powered up and working, when the phone is not powered, playing up or you have the wrong phone, so under section 2.8 Railcard T&C, how do you prove to a sceptical railway staff that you are entitled to a railcard discount ? Under 2.9 they could decide to charge you the full fare and deal it further down the road via an appeal or court, I agree it's not acceptable to threaten a passenger with courts and fines if there phone dies on the train, that said it is the responsibility of the passenger to ensure the phone is fully charged or with the correct phone, the railway staff can only deal with what's in front of them at the time they dont know you personally or your travelling habits.

As such I use a physical railcard for that reason, it would nip so many problems in the bud at the very start.
 

Hadders

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Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
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Thank you for the update, as I suspected it was an administrative error on GTR’s part. Glad it is all sorted.
 

bb21

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I am glad you got a good outcome. Thanks for updating us.
 
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