Fate of HST

[yorksrob]

Alongside the 442s you mean?

Well no, for starters as a further use has actually been found for the 442's, which rather proves my point !

(Get with the programme A0wen )

I'm also reminded that a lot of the West Coast mk3's were sat around for a bit before being reused.

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds like the D(a)fT has found yet another way to screw over the East Midlands then...

My guess would be that SWR or Scotrail have decided that they like the look of EMTs 158s and the GC HSTs are to fill the gap on Norwich-Liverpool.

Or give them preferential treatment more like !

EMT 158's are excellent units, but not as comfortable as a GC HST.

 

[43096]

Sounds like the D(a)fT has found yet another way to screw over the East Midlands then...



My guess would be that SWR or Scotrail have decided that they like the look of EMTs 158s and the GC HSTs are to fill the gap on Norwich-Liverpool.

Your guess is wrong.

As Tony Miles has posted it elsewhere, it is all to do with the DfT god called Thameslink. TL takes priority over everything, so extra minutes have to go into the timetable of other operators (incl EMT and VTEC). As a result some 222 diagrams become too tight so more stock is needed, hence the GC HST sets being required.

 

[tbtc]

Sounds like the D(a)fT has found yet another way to screw over the East Midlands then...

It's becoming harder to treat people seriously who can't spell DfT properly...

There are relatively few sensible uses HSTs could be put to work on. They are relatively slow to accelerate, even when reduced in length and are totally unsuited to stop/start type work, which is where the likely demand is going to be.

The fast long-distance services will already have been allocated new stock or remain in the hands of their existing stock - e.g. Pendolinos, Cl 800s and variants, Stadlers (GEML) or new bi-modes (MML).

So what does that leave?

Good points.

They are going to struggle for a home in future (regardless of costly modifications to keep them going).

Great trains in their day, but it's nearly 2020...

If only one of EMT or XC can have bi-modes, then XC is by far the better option; EMT can be the "22x shop". Apart from the morning Nottingham-Bournemouth (and possibly a couple of other odd services), all Voyager services travel at least 81 miles under the wires on each journey, with some doing 250+. If these proposed bi-modes could be fitted with 3rd rail equipment for use in the south there's even more of a case for XC.

There's also the fact that XC bi-modes could use the still-possibly-happening Oxford-Leamington-Coventry and Leeds-York modernisation schemes, while there are no plans for anything extra EMT could use.

London-Kettering is only 73 miles. EMT's units might spend more time under the wires than XC, but even then it's probably fairly marginal

I'm not quibbling the maths, but it's worth remembering that some Voyager diagrams spend hundreds of miles away from the wires (e.g. Edinburgh - Aberdeen - Edinburgh, Bromsgrove - Plymouth - Bromsgrove*), whereas an EMT diagram can see the train doing Kettering - London - Kettering several times a day (especially those on Nottingham services, assuming that we are talking about after Corby is wired).

I don't know the diagrams, but if Nottingham - London - Nottingham is a four hour cycle then one train could do that six or seven times per day (i.e. 7x73miles).

(* - yes, there'll be a tiny section at Bristol Parkway, but that's not worth splitting hairs over)

 

[47802]

What does that achieve? VTEC HSTs and the remaining GWR HSTs will also not be 2020 compliant, as things stand.

EMT has been backed into a corner with it's HST stock and PRM compliance. I'm sure the DFT will give a derogation for their ongoing use until replacement stock is delivered.

I doubt there is engineering capacity in the UK to add more Mk3 stock for 2020 conversion over and above all of the other rolling stock that still needs to be done!

Obviously the VTEC or GWR ones wont be compliant either, all though it could argued they have had a better refurbishment, as to whether or not DFT give derogation which ever HST's are used remains to be seen.

Are not all of Scotrail's HST's meant to be in Service by the end of 2018 I presume GWR fleet is on a similar timescale which potentially gives 2019 available for MML HST's.

I have heard it suggested elsewhere that who ever wins the franchise may pushed to use 379's for the Corby route and that Bi mode intro for the rest of the route will be somewhat leisurely.

 

[Chester1]

Your guess is wrong.

As Tony Miles has posted it elsewhere, it is all to do with the DfT god called Thameslink. TL takes priority over everything, so extra minutes have to go into the timetable of other operators (incl EMT and VTEC). As a result some 222 diagrams become too tight so more stock is needed, hence the GC HST sets being required.

That is surprising. I am guessing this is a temporary problem until Bedford to Corby is wired allowing East Midlands services to make fewer stops south of Kettering? In which case the GC HSTs would be off lease in 2020 if the new deadline is met? Would they obtain more carriages from off lease units? 5 carriage sets is a bit small for EMT intercity services.

 

[43096]

That is surprising. I am guessing this is a temporary problem until Bedford to Corby is wired allowing East Midlands services to make fewer stops south of Kettering? In which case the GC HSTs would be off lease in 2020 if the new deadline is met? Would they obtain more carriages from off lease units? 5 carriage sets is a bit small for EMT intercity services.

They will need to keep them as 2+5 or 2+6 to maintain performance levels compared with a 222. These are to supplement the 5-car 222s, so they are fine like that.

 

[Bayum]

I wonder if people would be bothered about the lifespan of HSTs as other modes of public transport... From what I gather and remember, the old 747-400s averaged 35-40yrs? Yes, they've been replaced by superior 747s as of late, but I'd not be particularly happy at speeding through the air of a 40yr old plane. The HSTs have worked extremely hard over the past 40yrs, but the time has come to replace old with new. I'm surprised that other operators are looking at HSTs as replacements, but think of that what you will.

 

[A0wen]

I wonder if people would be bothered about the lifespan of HSTs as other modes of public transport... From what I gather and remember, the old 747-400s averaged 35-40yrs? Yes, they've been replaced by superior 747s as of late, but I'd not be particularly happy at speeding through the air of a 40yr old plane. The HSTs have worked extremely hard over the past 40yrs, but the time has come to replace old with new. I'm surprised that other operators are looking at HSTs as replacements, but think of that what you will.

The 747-400s are not yet 30 years old - you're thinking of the earlier 747-100 and 747-200s, most of which are now out of frontline service.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I would hope that some get stored, at least for a while in case an unexpected need arises for main line rolling stock.

Assuming that Bounds Green is closed as a maintenance depot you could probably store them there. However at some point there would have to be a decision as to how much longer you continue to store them because of the cost of renting out the depot if nothing else.

 

[yorksrob]

Assuming that Bounds Green is closed as a maintenance depot you could probably store them there. However at some point there would have to be a decision as to how much longer you continue to store them because of the cost of renting out the depot if nothing else.

They usually stick a few at various military depot's before scrapping them all.

 

[1179_Clee2]

They usually stick a few at various military depot's before scrapping them all.

They don't scrap them all.

Long Marston still has stored Ex Virgin West Coast MK 3 coaches and MK 3b DVT's still in Virgin livery plus some Ex Virgin XC HST coaches and have been there for the last 15 years.

 

[Chester1]

They don't scrap them all.

Long Marston still has stored Ex Virgin West Coast MK 3 coaches and MK 3b DVT's still in Virgin livery plus some Ex Virgin XC HST coaches and have been there for the last 15 years.

Are they in a remotely usable state? Surely the cost of getting them back to passenger service would be prohibitively expensive?

 

[158747]

From what I gather and remember, the old 747-400s averaged 35-40yrs?

Most 747-400s had a service life of 20 - 25 years, although there are a small number of older ones still flying, the first 747-400 having entered passenger service in 1989. Only a few of the older 747-100s and 200s were in service for 30 years or more.

 

[RichmondCommu]

They usually stick a few at various military depot's before scrapping them all.

If there was any realistic chance of using the HST's in front line service it would surely be much better to put them in 'warm storage'?

 

[bb21]

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[43096]

If there was any realistic chance of using the HST's in front line service it would surely be much better to put them in 'warm storage'?

And who pays for that?

 

[pdeaves]

Assuming that Bounds Green is closed as a maintenance depot...

Pretty sure it will transfer to Hitachi for class 800/801 servicing.

 

[antharro]

Would be nice if some of the sets with short swing links could go to XC, so XC could double up their Voyagers (tho appreciate this would cause some problems at Reading) and have the option to run HSTs if a Voyager is unavailable or for an extra service. 4 car Voyager from up north to Reading is *no* fun at all.

 

[RichmondCommu]

And who pays for that?

The people / organisations who suggest that HST's should be kept for that 'just in case moment'.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Pretty sure it will transfer to Hitachi for class 800/801 servicing.

That's a fair point as I'm guessing North Pole will be full to capacity most nights.

 

[Chester1]

The people / organisations who suggest that HST's should be kept for that 'just in case moment'.

If East Midlands next franchise winners decide to replace the whole EMT intercity fleet then the cascade of 27 Meridians freed up would kill most remaining chances of keeping HSTs (and loco hauled Mark III sets) in service. In 5 years apart from the Scotrail, maybe GWR sets and those modified for rail tours they will be in rusting in depots or already transformed into razor blades. Not sure why this is hard for people to accept! A serious effort should be made to perserve units when Scotrail's HSTs eventually go off lease. Until then every other HST could be scrapped. The planned Scotrail fleet of 54 class 43s and 175 Mark IIIs would be more than enough for all possible future uses.

 

[Wivenswold]

Of all of the soon-to-be-surplus motive power, I think the HST power cars are most likely to be snapped-up for preservation.

In fact it's such a rare case of British engineering and design that was successful that the NRM collection should have a full set in BR blue/grey in my opinion.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I think it's unlikely that many HSTs will be preserved. Upthread they have been described as easy to maintain but that's using modern well-equipped maintanance facilities: what chance any preservationist, whether a group or line, is going to fund such a site. And don't count on the NRM saving a complete set either. It's very noticeable that the NRM has very few multiple-units in its collection as a complete one takes up space and doesn't have the appeal of a (steam) loco.

It's also refreshing that we should see a move from one generation of mainline traction to the next without seeing the service suffering due to the old stock becoming unreliable.

 

[JonathanH]

Of all of the soon-to-be-surplus motive power, I think the HST power cars are most likely to be snapped-up for preservation.

In fact it's such a rare case of British engineering and design that was successful that the NRM collection should have a full set in BR blue/grey in my opinion.

They aren't that practical for most preserved railways as they can't work with most of the existing rolling stock those railways have. So, you then need to buy a load of HST coaches as well. Most people visiting preserved railways want to travel behind steam engines.

How many preserved railways have a spare siding just waiting for a HST to fill it, let alone any undercover accommodation for the full rake of coaches.

Even with the NRM, while they may be interested in a power car for display because of the important role of the HST, what space do they have for a full HST set?

Finally, can any tour operator maintain a full HST set which is incompatible with any other type of engine / carriages? How much demand is there for HST-formed charters?

Any preservation of HSTs (other than the efforts of the 125 Group who have parts to restore a Valenta power car to go with the prototype) unfortunately has to overcome a number of practical issues before you even start to think of the maintenance and continued use of the trains.

 

[yorksrob]

They don't scrap them all.

Long Marston still has stored Ex Virgin West Coast MK 3 coaches and MK 3b DVT's still in Virgin livery plus some Ex Virgin XC HST coaches and have been there for the last 15 years.

And thank goodness they don't, for if they did, we probably wouldn't have Grand Central or Chiltern's enhanced express service as the stock to provide it wouldn't have been there.

 

[A0wen]

They aren't that practical for most preserved railways as they can't work with most of the existing rolling stock those railways have. So, you then need to buy a load of HST coaches as well. Most people visiting preserved railways want to travel behind steam engines.

How many preserved railways have a spare siding just waiting for a HST to fill it, let alone any undercover accommodation for the full rake of coaches.

Even with the NRM, while they may be interested in a power car for display because of the important role of the HST, what space do they have for a full HST set?

Finally, can any tour operator maintain a full HST set which is incompatible with any other type of engine / carriages? How much demand is there for HST-formed charters?

Any preservation of HSTs (other than the efforts of the 125 Group who have parts to restore a Valenta power car to go with the prototype) unfortunately has to overcome a number of practical issues before you even start to think of the maintenance and continued use of the trains.

Given the NRM's lack of treatment of the prototype HST power car, I wouldn't bet too much on them wanting to take a production one into the collection.

 

[A0wen]

They aren't that practical for most preserved railways as they can't work with most of the existing rolling stock those railways have. So, you then need to buy a load of HST coaches as well. Most people visiting preserved railways want to travel behind steam engines.

How many preserved railways have a spare siding just waiting for a HST to fill it, let alone any undercover accommodation for the full rake of coaches.

Even with the NRM, while they may be interested in a power car for display because of the important role of the HST, what space do they have for a full HST set?

Finally, can any tour operator maintain a full HST set which is incompatible with any other type of engine / carriages? How much demand is there for HST-formed charters?

Any preservation of HSTs (other than the efforts of the 125 Group who have parts to restore a Valenta power car to go with the prototype) unfortunately has to overcome a number of practical issues before you even start to think of the maintenance and continued use of the trains.

Well - being practical about it, you need 2 power cars not one and almost have the set in fixed formation - which as you say isn't what most heritage railways want.

There are are half a dozen heritage railways which *could* possibly justify an HST given the length of their line and possible storage - Severn Valley, Nene Valley, Great Central, East Lancs, West Somerset and at a push the Mid-Norfolk. Most other lines are too short or would lack the space to store one.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Who could take them on as charter stock? One possibility I can think of is DRS

 

[Darandio]

And don't forget GBRF for fast parcel traffic........

.........runs for cover........