Fate of HST

[47802]

Well - being practical about it, you need 2 power cars not one and almost have the set in fixed formation - which as you say isn't what most heritage railways want.

There are are half a dozen heritage railways which *could* possibly justify an HST given the length of their line and possible storage - Severn Valley, Nene Valley, Great Central, East Lancs, West Somerset and at a push the Mid-Norfolk. Most other lines are too short or would lack the space to store one.

I cannot see Heritage Railways taking many other than the existing HST group, possibly charter companies might take a few the prospect of train that can go to most places and not have to be looped out of the way on the fast routes might have some merit, but on the other hand they may just prefer Anglia MK3's.

 

[theblackwatch]

Given the NRM's lack of treatment of the prototype HST power car, I wouldn't bet too much on them wanting to take a production one into the collection.

A HST set (quote "Class 43 Diesel Locomotives plus Coaches comprising InterCity 125 High Speed Trains") has already been designated for the National Collection. Note though that does not necessarily mean for the NRM at York.

 

[TwistedMentat]

Why is everyone assuming it would have to be a full set?

Wouldn't it make more sense for a heritage railway to do something more like the HST GTi and go with a shorter rake of coaches that are easier to store?

 

[The Ham]

If East Midlands next franchise winners decide to replace the whole EMT intercity fleet then the cascade of 27 Meridians freed up would kill most remaining chances of keeping HSTs (and loco hauled Mark III sets) in service. In 5 years apart from the Scotrail, maybe GWR sets and those modified for rail tours they will be in rusting in depots or already transformed into razor blades. Not sure why this is hard for people to accept! A serious effort should be made to perserve units when Scotrail's HSTs eventually go off lease. Until then every other HST could be scrapped. The planned Scotrail fleet of 54 class 43s and 175 Mark IIIs would be more than enough for all possible future uses.

I would agree that it depends on what future rolling stock orders there are.

However I could see that a few extra sets for XC (a 2+5 would be akin to a 6 coach 22x in terms of capacity) to allow the 220's to be reformed to 5 coach or to run 2/3rd's of the fleet coupled together in their current configuration (would probably require about 13).

If you were looking to reform the 221's to all 6 coach units and you would probable require a further 7 (20 in total) and it would make a significant difference to capacity at XC.

It would require 100 coaches and 40 loco's (class 43's), so probably not too costly for an interim measure (maybe until about 2025-2030) until it is clear what the outcome of HS2 services are likely to be and so what the fleet will need to be like going forwards. It could also be just enough time for some additional electrification to come along (chiefly on Manchester to the South Coast and Newcastle to South Coast services) and potentially remove the need for XC to use quite so many diesel trains.

However, as the quoted post indicates, an extra 27 units in the form of the 222's would provide a similar level of capacity improvements without the need for modifications.

 

[CosherB]

Who could take them on as charter stock? One possibility I can think of is DRS

You'll need to refer that to Debbie. She may decide that DRS will bail out of heritage LHCS altogether and leave it with Riviera/WCRC.

If DRS end up with HSTs, I'll eat my hat.

 

[A0wen]

Why is everyone assuming it would have to be a full set?

Wouldn't it make more sense for a heritage railway to do something more like the HST GTi and go with a shorter rake of coaches that are easier to store?

I was making no such assumption - but for an HST to be 'workable' for a heritage line it would need to be with some Mk3 coaches and 2 power cars, whether that's 4, 5 6, 7 or 8 coaches is kind of irrelevant.

The point is HST power cars can't operate 'both ways' and probably couldn't work with Mk 1 or Mk 2 coaches - even the loco hauled Mk3s were no good without modification.

So you end up needing a longish fixed formation train, losing the flexibility of a separate loco and coaches - which is more important for a heritage line with limited resources and not looking at maximum utilisation of stock - which the mainline does.

 

[xotGD]

Imagine pitching up at the SVR expecting a Western or Hoover and being bowled when a tram turns up instead. Desperate.

 

[STKKK46]

Imagine pitching up at the SVR expecting a Western or Hoover and being bowled when a tram turns up instead. Desperate.

What about when future generations pitch up at the SVR expecting a HST and a Voyager turns up? These sets are 40 years old, once replaced completely they will be absolutely vital in sealing the future of these railways.

Heritage railways are not just for people who saw their current trains in service many moons ago. If they were they'd fall apart after becoming unprofitable in the next 20 years or so, people wouldn't care anymore. I'm in my 20s and I fully imagine that in 20-30 years or so, I'd love nothing more than a ride on a HST, or a 158.

 

[47802]

What about when future generations pitch up at the SVR expecting a HST and a Voyager turns up? These sets are 40 years old, once replaced completely they will be absolutely vital in sealing the future of these railways.

Heritage railways are not just for people who saw their current trains in service many moons ago. If they were they'd fall apart after becoming unprofitable in the next 20 years or so, people wouldn't care anymore. I'm in my 20s and I fully imagine that in 20-30 years or so, I'd love nothing more than a ride on a HST, or a 158.

The General Public want steam when they go to a Preserved Railway not a HST or any other kind of Diesel and I very much doubt that is likely to change anytime soon.

 

[43096]

I was making no such assumption - but for an HST to be 'workable' for a heritage line it would need to be with some Mk3 coaches and 2 power cars, whether that's 4, 5 6, 7 or 8 coaches is kind of irrelevant.



The point is HST power cars can't operate 'both ways' and probably couldn't work with Mk 1 or Mk 2 coaches - even the loco hauled Mk3s were no good without modification.



So you end up needing a longish fixed formation train, losing the flexibility of a separate loco and coaches - which is more important for a heritage line with limited resources and not looking at maximum utilisation of stock - which the mainline does.

The GCRN proves otherwise! It is entirely feasible to use an HST on a preserved line.

HST Mark 3s will couple to any buckeye-fitted air brake stock and there is no need to have through multi working jumpers to control any rear power car - you get more thrash that way! Yes you need a loco/power car on the rear, but that is not a show stopper.

I really think people are making more of an issue of this than there is in reality.

 

[mrcheek]

I wonder if people would be bothered about the lifespan of HSTs as other modes of public transport... From what I gather and remember, the old 747-400s averaged 35-40yrs? Yes, they've been replaced by superior 747s as of late, but I'd not be particularly happy at speeding through the air of a 40yr old plane. The HSTs have worked extremely hard over the past 40yrs, but the time has come to replace old with new. I'm surprised that other operators are looking at HSTs as replacements, but think of that what you will.

yes, but whilst HSTs are technically 40 years old, they are rather like Trigger's broom, or the Sugababes, in that pretty much every original piece has been replaced in that time!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The GCRN proves otherwise! It is entirely feasible to use an HST on a preserved line.

The GCRN are not known for the hoards of families and day trippers turning up for a pleasant trundle through the countryside that you get on other more 'steam-powered' railways. I've always thought the marriage between GCR/GCRN will be a strange one, as they are totally different railways. Although the prospect of seeing the prototype HST screaming through Quorn at 60mph has its upsides

 

[43096]

The GCRN are not known for the hoards of families and day trippers turning up for a pleasant trundle through the countryside that you get on other more 'steam-powered' railways. I've always thought the marriage between GCR/GCRN will be a strange one, as they are totally different railways. Although the prospect of seeing the prototype HST screaming through Quorn at 60mph has its upsides

So who does use the GCRN then????!!!

Personally I think the market is moving on. The day out on a kettle can be a nightmare for families if the sun is out and you're sat roasting in a slow moving Mark 1, many of which are not in a great state on a number of railways. Not an ideal way for kids to be kept happy, especially as they will probably have arrived in an air conditioned car.

We are all now used to having aircon - in cars, at work, increasingly at home. I have certainly heard comments from day trippers on the GCRN about how nice the Mark 3s are and "it's lovely and cool on here". Similarly in winter, electric heat is far more reliable than steam, especially on draughty Mark 1s. Again, from experience, for the GCRN's bonfire night additional last year the Mark 3s were used, with appreciative comments how it was "nice and warm - much better than last year".

 

[RichmondCommu]

Personally I think the market is moving on. The day out on a kettle can be a nightmare for families if the sun is out and you're sat roasting in a slow moving Mark 1, many of which are not in a great state on a number of railways. Not an ideal way for kids to be kept happy, especially as they will probably have arrived in an air conditioned car.

We are all now used to having aircon - in cars, at work, increasingly at home. I have certainly heard comments from day trippers on the GCRN about how nice the Mark 3s are and "it's lovely and cool on here". Similarly in winter, electric heat is far more reliable than steam, especially on draughty Mark 1s. Again, from experience, for the GCRN's bonfire night additional last year the Mark 3s were used, with appreciative comments how it was "nice and warm - much better than last year".

I'm sorry to say I think you're completely wrong on this. My 6 year old Grandson is not the slightest bit interested in diesels but loves steam. Indeed diesels rarely get a mention in his Thomas The Tank Engine books. The beauty of a steam engine is that you can explain to a curious child how it works as pretty much everything is immediately available to see. Given that we rarely have hot summers the lack of air conditioning in mk1 rolling stock is hardly an issue and in winter we tend to wear coats in this country.

The allure of steam also stretches to adults in this case my wife and our two daughters, not to mention my two sons. Once a year as a family we have a railway related day out. In no shape or form could my wife or our daughters be described as being rail enthusiasts (my two sons show a bit more interest) but they are happy to ride behind steam trains on the SVR or the Bluebell to name but two. The chances of them wishing to attend a diesel gala is zero. In fact they would laugh at the idea. Look at the demand earlier this year for travel behind Tornado on the S & C; running a HST on those trains would have not had anything like the same effect.

 

[gg1]

Would the speed restrictions in place on preserved lines cause issues too, how would HSTs cope with prolonged running at 25mph?

 

[455driver]

Why won't they be scrapped? They are end of life, 40 year old trains. If there is no-one who wants to lease them, then they will go into the bin.

I think you have answered your own question.

It is well known that the GC ones are off to the Midland Mainline as soon as they are displaced.

 

[455driver]

Why is the EMT "requirement" next year? There's no pressing need for new stock on the MML at all. Why would waiting another year or two until VTEC HSTs go off-lease be a significant issue?

I understand that our beloved Government in the guise of the DaFT have decided that Thameslink gets priority so EMT need extra trains to allow longer turnaround times to give them some more flexibility to maintain their timetable.

 

[455driver]

Imagine pitching up at the SVR expecting a Western or Hoover and being bowled when a tram turns up instead. Desperate.

Just like the good old days!

 

[455driver]

Would the speed restrictions in place on preserved lines cause issues too, how would HSTs cope with prolonged running at 25mph?

No issue really, probably the best way would be to shut down the rear PC to give the front one a bit more work to do.

 

[Failed Unit]

Probably already mentioned on this thread but I am sure some will end up on the spot hire market. Considering the mk2s seem to ply a decent trade.

They will have demand such as from VTEc, XC etc in high demand times.

If the business case stacks up who knows but I assume compliance to regulations will cost similar amounts on the Mk2s compared to the mk3s. Maybe times are changing but hull trains would have given anything to hire 125 capable stock during its class 180 problems.

Be interesting if open access grabs some.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Be interesting if open access grabs some.

Which open access operators did you have in mind?

 

[Failed Unit]

Which open access operators did you have in mind?

New ones. Rolling stock is an issue. Some may appear once it is available. Not sure myself if big enough markets exist but maybe someone may think let's try Nottingham - Leicester - Bristol via oxford. (Route at random)

Not sure if the biggest problem is rolling stock or paths. But anyone thinking of a diesel based service has no suitable stock. Building new is a risk. It is like the airlines approach test on a knackered 737. If it works buy something better.

I don't think we will ever see kings cross - Nottingham type services. Paths and revenue extraction will prevent it even if the HSTs were free.

 

[xotGD]

Would the speed restrictions in place on preserved lines cause issues too, how would HSTs cope with prolonged running at 25mph?

They would have to be rebranded as 'Inter City 025'

 

[Cowley]

They would have to be rebranded as 'Inter City 025'

Inter Village 025.

 

[MatthewRead]

Isn't there also plans to refit a preserved HST with the original Paxman Valenta engines?

 

[47802]

Isn't there also plans to refit a preserved HST with the original Paxman Valenta engines?

The aims of the 125 group are to have a least 1 Power Car fitted with an original Paxman Engine which would be certainly more appealing to enthusiasts than an MTU version, If they manage to afford 2 Power Cars then expect a VP185 will be more appealing than a MTU version.

 

[STKKK46]

The General Public want steam when they go to a Preserved Railway not a HST or any other kind of Diesel and I very much doubt that is likely to change anytime soon.

I don't recall mentioning that this would happen soon?

If we go ahead and scrap all of the HSTs, one of the finest piece of rail engineering in history, what's going to happen in 20/30/40 years time? Rebuild new steam engines? That doesn't seem very heritage to me.

Times change. These things happen.

 

[InOban]

In my first post on this thread, #9, I specifically mentioned tour operators. They would be wasted trundling up and down a preserved railway, and anyway that market is addicted to steam, or at a push, a Modernisation era diesel. But the charter train market would surely welcome the finest coaches ever to run on railways of the UK. Even if 40 years old, they are younger than the coaches used now.
And as increasing frequencies on local services put under pressure the reduced layouts at destination stations, a double ended train will be attractive. Here in Oban we could not accept a tour train on a Sunday in summer because there are already up to three trains using our two platforms.

And even if their max speed was reduced to 115mph, which I believe allows single manning, they would find it easier to find mainline paths.

 

[CosherB]

I don't recall mentioning that this would happen soon?

If we go ahead and scrap all of the HSTs, one of the finest piece of rail engineering in history, what's going to happen in 20/30/40 years time? Rebuild new steam engines? That doesn't seem very heritage to me.

Times change. These things happen.

Tornado? Flying Scotsman?

 

[STKKK46]

Tornado? Flying Scotsman?

I am no expert on this matter but please remember I am talking in 20/30/40 years time. Not every heritage railway has a Tornado or a Flying Scotsman. Are all these steam engines seriously expected to last into the next god knows how many generations? (Genuine question)

Someone made a point that is very true... a 125mph master of engineering trundling along a small route at 25mph isn't ideal. However there are a lot of these railways and also a lot of these trains to go round. I expect that the HSTs will find at least another 10 years on the mainline and I hope they will manage another 20 or so!

The thread is called Fate of HST. This is looking at the near and distant future.