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Finalists - Best UK 'High Speed' train

Out of these 3 finalists, which one would you crown the best UK High Speed train?

  • Class 43 HST

    Votes: 140 46.5%
  • Class 91 IC 225

    Votes: 57 18.9%
  • Class 390 Pendolino

    Votes: 104 34.6%

  • Total voters
    301
  • Poll closed .
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trebor79

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I can't understand this anti-multiple-unit prejudice that some members seem to have.

I can understand you not liking the noisy, rattly underfloor engines on a Sprinter, but that's not a problem with DMUs in general. Get onto a 185, Turbostar or even a 158 and the engine just a drone in the background - noticeable, but far from enough to wreck the experience of the journey.
158's can be very noisy indeed, especially if you sit in the "wrong" part of the saloon. They also have an unfortunate defect of the rear vehicle often stinking of exhaust fumes.
Turbostars are quieter but lots of them suffer from rattly panels triggered by the engine.
The 80x underfloor engines are barely noticable.
Perhaps the 755 is the best compromise. Thrash enthusiasts can sit near the engine pod. People who like EMU traction package sounds can sit near or above the powered bogies and those who prefer the peace and quiet of loco hauled stock can sit towards the middle of a 2-car half set :D.
 
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Purple Orange

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If enthusiasts ran the railway then I think HST2 would have come to fruition, and we'd probably have a decent nationwide fleet of trailers and powered cars capable of both diesel and electric. There wouldn't be all these noisy , polluting underfloor engines on IC stock.
The seating would be comfortable on long distance trains, designed more around comfort than cramming em in.

I shudder at the thought.......
Im not too sure about that. Many appear to be opposed to HS2 on here.
 

BoroAndy

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Mk1 Dmus.... Oh dear. Loved it when the driver messed up the gear changes and it took ages to get out of the station. I think a 43 would win the race, but preferred a 55 with 12+ carriages running late, setting off with a roar. Hairs on back of neck etc.
 

trebor79

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Mk1 Dmus.... Oh dear. Loved it when the driver messed up the gear changes and it took ages to get out of the station. I
I can remember crawling through Queen Street tunnels and up Cowlairs bank at little more than walking pace. Distinct memory of being sat with by father and little brother on a blue sky winters day eating mint humbugs and watching the view ahead through the drivers cab windows.
 

Irascible

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Travelling with a Cl 45 dragging 10 MK2's, maybe not the aircon ones, on a long journey was tediously slow. ILeeds - Paignton took nearly a whole day. HST changed that, and allowed the cascade of Mk2's and cl 47 to cross country, trans pennine etc.

NE-SW is still tediously slow, enough to be worth the bother of flying - might be quicker now but not in any particularily valuable way. I'd rather spend it in a 20 year old Mk2 AC seat than a 20 year old Voyager though ( if only for the feeling of not being a 150% full train ).

Doors, vestibules blah blah - you get to use the doors twice per journey, you get to use the vestibules a couple of times more if you go to the loo or there's a buffet you have to get to ( unless you're on a 150% full train & you spend the entire trip in the vestibule - maybe we should have a poll for "best train travel experience when you can't get a seat" ); what matters is the saloon experience.
 

trebor79

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NE-SW is still tediously slow, enough to be worth the bother of flying - might be quicker now but not in any particularily valuable way. I'd rather spend it in a 20 year old Mk2 AC seat than a 20 year old Voyager though ( if only for the feeling of not being a 150% full train ).
Similar. I still remember the last time I travelled on a Mk2 set. Bristol Temple Meads to Durham in about 2000 or 2001. I was absolutely thrilled when that rolled into TM instead of an HST or Voyager.
 

Mikey C

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If enthusiasts ran the railway then I think HST2 would have come to fruition, and we'd probably have a decent nationwide fleet of trailers and powered cars capable of both diesel and electric. There wouldn't be all these noisy , polluting underfloor engines on IC stock.
The seating would be comfortable on long distance trains, designed more around comfort than cramming em in.

I shudder at the thought.......
The seats might be lousy, but in no way are the 80x seats crammed in, they have far more legroom than their HST predecessors
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The Pendolino feels like a cheap aircraft inside. Not necessarily a good thing!
But nothing else can do 125mph on the WCML (bar the despised 221s).
It also rides better at that speed than anything else.
You won't remember the crumbling, unreliable WCML of the 1980/90s, which they (and Network Rail) transformed.
They will also be in front line service for a decade at least, the small fleet of 805/7s on order won't change that.
The non-tilt 805/7s still have to prove they can keep up with the 390/221s.
 

irish_rail

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Oh i misread what you had put then! I guess it fits with the 'mend and make-do' element that enthuisasts appear to show.
You still misunderstand me. The proposal was for a brand new train comprising two brand new powercars capable of diesel and electric which would also have unpowered trailer vehicles.
Nothing to do with make do and mend.
 

DustyBin

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You still misunderstand me. The proposal was for a brand new train comprising two brand new powercars capable of diesel and electric which would also have unpowered trailer vehicles.
Nothing to do with make do and mend.

Was the proposal for one diesel and one electric power car, or two electro-diesels (along the lines of the Bombardier ALP-45DP maybe)? Either way I think this would have been a superior solution. I presume it was deemed too difficult/costly to implement?
 

Purple Orange

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You still misunderstand me. The proposal was for a brand new train comprising two brand new powercars capable of diesel and electric which would also have unpowered trailer vehicles.
Nothing to do with make do and mend.
Wouldnt the Mk3s be repurposed with this proposal then? If so, thats what i was getting at.
 

trebor79

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Was the proposal for one diesel and one electric power car, or two electro-diesels (along the lines of the Bombardier ALP-45DP maybe)? Either way I think this would have been a superior solution. I presume it was deemed too difficult/costly to implement?
A friend of mine worked on this in the DfT at the time. I understand the view was taken that MUs were more "standard" and therefore ought to be cheaper to procure than designing and building an HST2. Also perceived operational flexibility.

Wouldnt the Mk3s be repurposed with this proposal then? If so, thats what i was getting at.
No. New trailers.
 

DustyBin

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A friend of mine worked on this in the DfT at the time. I understand the view was taken that MUs were more "standard" and therefore ought to be cheaper to procure than designing and building an HST2. Also perceived operational flexibility.


No. New trailers.

Thanks, I suspected that would be the case. It's a shame really.
 

hst43102

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But nothing else can do 125mph on the WCML (bar the despised 221s).
It also rides better at that speed than anything else.
You won't remember the crumbling, unreliable WCML of the 1980/90s, which they (and Network Rail) transformed.
They will also be in front line service for a decade at least, the small fleet of 805/7s on order won't change that.
The non-tilt 805/7s still have to prove they can keep up with the 390/221s.
Oh, I'm not saying that they're not good trains. They certainly improved the WCML greatly and as such increased the number of passengers, which is a great thing for the railways in general. I don't particularly dislike them, I just think the IC225 and HST were much better!
 

MattRat

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But nothing else can do 125mph on the WCML (bar the despised 221s).
It also rides better at that speed than anything else.
You won't remember the crumbling, unreliable WCML of the 1980/90s, which they (and Network Rail) transformed.
They will also be in front line service for a decade at least, the small fleet of 805/7s on order won't change that.
The non-tilt 805/7s still have to prove they can keep up with the 390/221s.
The Voyagers don't tilt as much so have to still slow down. Not as much as an 80X, but those have better acceleration to make up for it. The 390 will be difficult to keep with though, as I don't think there's any 125 stretches they can't stay full speed on.
 

trebor79

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Thanks, I suspected that would be the case. It's a shame really.
It is and it isn't in a way. I was dismayed at the time because I didn't think underfloor engines were suitable for a long distance intercity train. But I'm pleasantly surprised with how good they are from a passenger POV. It's very hard to know whether the engines are running or not from inside the saloon.
I don't like some of the design compromises, such as the windows on the low floor coaches not being lowered to compensate and the sometimes noisy ventilation, but that's not directly a result of them being MUs.
 
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DustyBin

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It is and it isn't in a way. I was dismayed at the time because I didn't think underfloor engines were suitable for a long distance intercity train. But I'm pleasantly surprised with how good they are from a passenger POV. It's very hard to know whether the engines are running or not from inside the saloon.
I don't like some of the design compromises, such as the windows on the low floor coaches not being lowered to compensate and the sometimes noisy ventilation, but that's not directly a result of them being MUs.

True. What I was getting at is it was a chance to have a bespoke train tailored to the needs of the UK network as opposed to an "off the shelf" product. That's not to say "off the shelf" products are inherently bad by any means, and of course the DfT may well have messed up the spec of the train regardless!
 

trebor79

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True. What I was getting at is it was a chance to have a bespoke train tailored to the needs of the UK network as opposed to an "off the shelf" product. That's not to say "off the shelf" products are inherently bad by any means, and of course the DfT may well have messed up the spec of the train regardless!
More than likely. An ex-colleague used to work for Hitachi. They were horrified at some of the late specification changes the DfT insisted upon, chiefly the cheap and nasty seating, but also the spartan interior fit out.
 

DustyBin

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More than likely. An ex-colleague used to work for Hitachi. They were horrified at some of the late specification changes the DfT insisted upon, chiefly the cheap and nasty seating, but also the spartan interior fit out.

I can imagine!
 

Ken H

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More than likely. An ex-colleague used to work for Hitachi. They were horrified at some of the late specification changes the DfT insisted upon, chiefly the cheap and nasty seating, but also the spartan interior fit out.
I am never sure how much rubbish seats are because of cost cutting, getting more seats in, fire regs or some requirement about posture. Soggy seats can cause back issues.
 

trebor79

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I am never sure how much rubbish seats are because of cost cutting, getting more seats in, fire regs or some requirement about posture. Soggy seats can cause back issues.
Pure cost driven decision in this case.
 

xotGD

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I know! We’d still have HSTs on our mainlines! The rail network would be a proper mix of hitch porch everywhere to everywhere routes and assorts of different traction.
Incorrect! If enthusiasts had been in charge we'd never have had HSTs in the first place.

Replacing proper trains with glorified units? I think not!
 

Pigeon

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And probably no BR Standards before that, either. That would have made two great mistakes not made.
 

43096

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And then renumbering those glorified units to make them look like locomotives. Blasphemy!
They weren't renumbered!

And they were overhauled from day one at Derby Locomotive Works (not the Carriage Works) and have always had a locomotive maintenance exam regime (light/intermediate/general - now E/F/G exams - rather than C4/C3/C2 etc used for units).

You can argue it whichever way you like, but there's always a counter to it. Personally, I'd say they are HSTs and therefore superior to all other traction.8-)
 
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