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First Class - declassified? (on West Midlands Trains)

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ServerHoster

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Just a quick question today.

On Saturday I'm due to be travelling with London Northwestern Railway on the Crewe - Liverpool route.
The official timetable from the website (here) does not have the "1" (for first class) above the services.
They replied to someone's tweet asking about this a few weeks ago, responded saying it's declassified. But, changes could have happened then and they could have re-introduced first class.
I contacted them on twitter yesterday, they said they would look into it (no further response from there).

Do you know if first class will be declassified?
 
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The definitive National Rail timetable shows these services as having first class accommodation, but the NRE website shows no first class fares CRE-LIV.
You could go by the platform indicator?
 

Bletchleyite

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LNR appear to have deleted all their First Class fares so you won't be able to purchase one anyway, so I think that suggests it is indeed declassified. If you ask the guard you can be sure.

You can see this if you do a search on National Rail Enquiries - the "First Class from £X" box doesn't appear. It's also on brfares.com though obviously that's not definitive.
 

HSP 2

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Sit in the seat and if questioned say that you have checked that it has been declassified (have some proof with you.).
 

Haywain

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The absence of First Class fares does not, in itself, define the availability of First Class accommodation.
 

Starmill

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First Class on LNR was declassified, I think in April, for an unknown period of time to support social distancing. This was still in place according to one report last Saturday. I don't know if First Class is now back. They did not, as far as I know, change the timetable, but they have attempted to prevent people from buying First Class tickets which cannot be used in First Class.
 

Bletchleyite

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The absence of First Class fares does not, in itself, define the availability of First Class accommodation.

It doesn't. but a TOC wishing to enforce First Class doesn't create a situation where it's impossible to pay for it. Locking it OOU isn't an option as it's in the middle of the unit.
 

Mcr Warrior

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...but they have attempted to prevent people from buying First Class tickets which cannot be used in First Class.
That's head spinning. So, who can legitimately use the first class accommodation? First class season ticket holders purchased previously?
 

Starmill

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That's head spinning. So, who can legitimately use the first class accommodation? First class season ticket holders purchased previously?
If its declassified, and open, anyone. If one has a first class ticket and first class was scheduled but not provided there will be a part refund.
 

Merseysider

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The guard on my LNR train Sunday made it quite clear that anybody whatsoever can sit in first class.
 
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D.K.TAYLOR

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All LNWR trains are declassified at the moment been to London and back today and travelled locally 1st class both Conductors stated declassified
 

Bletchleyite

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That's head spinning. So, who can legitimately use the first class accommodation? First class season ticket holders purchased previously?

The possibilities are:

1. First Class is First Class and is available to First Class ticket holders only. If there aren't any First Class tickets, that means nobody can sit there, though there may still be some First Class seasons knocking around or indeed tickets purchased in advance before the fares were removed, as well as people using Any Permitted fares set by Avanti.

2. First class is locked out of use; nobody can use it at all whatever their ticket. This would however be disruptive as it's in the middle of Class 350 units, though they could I suppose tape the seats off and keep the gangway open.

3. First Class is declassified, and so anyone can sit there regardless of ticket. In this case because there is no First Class on the train (if it's declassified it doesn't exist, doesn't matter what the seats look like) a holder of an actual First Class ticket (who in this case had obtained it in advance or it was a season) is due a partial refund for having to sit in "Standard". (Given what LNR sham-1st is like, i.e. markedly inferior to most of Standard, that must be a bonus - you both get some money back and you get to sit in a higher standard of accommodation :D )

It appears LNR have done number 3.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Thanks. Presumably a First Class ticket holder would also be entitled to a partial refund if scenario # 2 applied instead.

What is/was the rationale for LNR adopting this position (of declassifying First Class)? Social distancing during the COVID-19 pandemic?
 

Bletchleyite

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Thanks. Presumably a First Class ticket holder would also be entitled to a partial refund if scenario # 2 applied instead.

Yes, correct. If First Class was advertised on the train you used at the time you bought your ticket but is not provided (doesn't matter why or how it isn't provided) then a part-refund is due. Declassified First Class is Standard, so if all First Class on a train is declassified that's the same as it not being provided. This I think is, if a walk-up, to the cheapest walk-up that would have been valid for the journey, or if an Advance is down to the same tier level of Standard Advance. I don't know how it works if it was available one way but not the other.

What is/was the rationale for LNR adopting this position (of declassifying First Class)?

They say it's for social distancing, but there's probably also an element of "might as well stop it being a pit of antisocial behaviour while most genuine ticket holders aren't using it".
 

DazrahT

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I am currently in a slanging match with WMT over this. I hold a 1st Class Annual Season ticket, of which 90% of my journeys on that season ticket presently are not even with WMT (trading as LNR / WMR). It is due to expire in just over two weeks. Because the Season ticket I hold (and intended to renew!) is priced by WMT, it's no longer available for sale, even though I hardly travel on any of their trains!

Interestingly, I was due to pop up to Warrington the other week (but didn't in the end), my season ticket covers me to Wolverhampton, then I usually buy a day return 1st Wolves to Crewe and another day return 1st Crewe - Warrington (Because it's about £70+ cheaper!), but here's the catch and the craziness of the UK fares system, you cannot buy ANY 1st Class returns between Crewe and Warrington (via the direct route) as WMT set the fares, but don't actually run any of the trains on that route. The last time they did was when they were Central Trains and ran one train on a weekday, in one direction only, the 1651 New Street to Preston. That hasn't ran to my knowledge since circa 2006/7!
 

D.K.TAYLOR

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Good luck in your quest West Mids are not the worst but they have a tendency to stick to there way of thinking currently on 350403 in the first class declassified anyone who has a first class any kind of ticket l MYSELF would be a very unhappy bunny good luck
 

Bletchleyite

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I am currently in a slanging match with WMT over this. I hold a 1st Class Annual Season ticket, of which 90% of my journeys on that season ticket presently are not even with WMT (trading as LNR / WMR). It is due to expire in just over two weeks. Because the Season ticket I hold (and intended to renew!) is priced by WMT, it's no longer available for sale, even though I hardly travel on any of their trains!

Perhaps post what it is, we might be able to find you an alternative priced by another TOC.
 

DazrahT

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RUGBY to WEST MIDS ALL ZONES (1st)

There isn't an alternative

Good luck in your quest West Mids are not the worst but they have a tendency to stick to there way of thinking currently on 350403 in the first class declassified anyone who has a first class any kind of ticket l MYSELF would be a very unhappy bunny good luck


I'd still claim on that. If the timetable or a journey planner says the service (not particularly the train itself, so if they dump a 323 into a 350 diagram for instance) has Standard and 1st Class accommodation and that wasn't provided, then a claim can be put in as per the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Officially you're meant to have some proof of it not being available.

Interestingly, their trains still show as Standard AND 1st in journey planners to this day
 
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voyagerdude220

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I am currently in a slanging match with WMT over this. I hold a 1st Class Annual Season ticket, of which 90% of my journeys on that season ticket presently are not even with WMT (trading as LNR / WMR). It is due to expire in just over two weeks. Because the Season ticket I hold (and intended to renew!) is priced by WMT, it's no longer available for sale, even though I hardly travel on any of their trains!

Interestingly, I was due to pop up to Warrington the other week (but didn't in the end), my season ticket covers me to Wolverhampton, then I usually buy a day return 1st Wolves to Crewe and another day return 1st Crewe - Warrington (Because it's about £70+ cheaper!), but here's the catch and the craziness of the UK fares system, you cannot buy ANY 1st Class returns between Crewe and Warrington (via the direct route) as WMT set the fares, but don't actually run any of the trains on that route. The last time they did was when they were Central Trains and ran one train on a weekday, in one direction only, the 1651 New Street to Preston. That hasn't ran to my knowledge since circa 2006/7!

I'm curious what Avanti is offering passengers who wish to buy First Class tickets for Avanti services, say from Crewe to Wolverhampton, whilst none are available (apart from some Advance First tickets which are of course subject to availability)
 

Bletchleyite

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RUGBY to WEST MIDS ALL ZONES (1st)

There isn't an alternative

That's an awkward one - I was thinking of finding one set by Avanti but there won't be any to that destination.

I don't get why they deleted the fares, they should just have updated the timetable data and put posters up.
 

Laurencew

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Is first class still declassified on West Midlands Trains (LNW Railway)?
I am referring specifically to Crewe - Euston.
Thanks.
 

DazrahT

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Is first class still declassified on West Midlands Trains (LNW Railway)?
I am referring specifically to Crewe - Euston.
Thanks.

As far as I am aware yes. I had some flannel from WMT saying they were instructed to declassify 1st Class by instruction from the DfT, I've not replied back but it sounds like nonsense because as far as I am aware no other TOC has been instructed to follow suit. My annoyance is not so much with WMT declassifying their 1st Class, my gripe is the removal of the 1st Class fares they set that are valid on other TOCs!

25/09/2020: Well it seems like my complaint to WMT has worked, I have just been received an email from WMT stating that my 1st Class Season ticket (priced by WMT) goes back on sale as of tomorrow. Now I don't know if that's all of their 1st Class fares, or just mine! I'm under the assumption though that the status quo with 1st being declassified on WMT remains.
 
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