First Greater Glasgow

[TheGrandWazoo]

I haven’t been on any buses since April, but I think Glasgow needs the B7s replaced, they are quite old and need a refurbishment.

Still have a few years in them, oldest are 17!

With a couple of exceptions, they are all 16/17 years old. They'll have to hang on for a couple of years anyway but I would suggest that the business case for refurbing them just isn't there. Really, it should be the older e400s and the e300s that are now mid-life that need to be refurbished.

Certainly singles only became popular when First Glasgow appeared! As a passenger almost always favour a decker, and i almost always sit upstairs. Just more comfortable!

I'm guessing you're quite sprightly. I prefer a decker but guess pensioners do make up a fairly substantial amount of the clientele.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

The low height E400s could be doing with a refurb and if they start the E300s now they could easily last a good number of years more instead of ending their life in the same condition the B7RLEs have.

 

[route101]

The low height E400s could be doing with a refurb and if they start the E300s now they could easily last a good number of years more instead of ending their life in the same condition the B7RLEs have.

I guess the e300s have cheap interiors. Refurb the e400s, keep them on 6. Never know might get rid of them as they are non standard bus in fleet.

With a couple of exceptions, they are all 16/17 years old. They'll have to hang on for a couple of years anyway but I would suggest that the business case for refurbing them just isn't there. Really, it should be the older e400s and the e300s that are now mid-life that need to be refurbished.


I'm guessing you're quite sprightly. I prefer a decker but guess pensioners do make up a fairly substantial amount of the clientele.

Thats why i go upstairs, keep the seats downstairs for older people. Singles can be pain to get on or off when busy. Plus good view from upstairs.

I get some like to sit near the engine to hear the 'thrash'

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The low height E400s could be doing with a refurb and if they start the E300s now they could easily last a good number of years more instead of ending their life in the same condition the B7RLEs have.

Absolutely. It's too late to worry about the older Geminis and Eclipses but the mid-life stuff has time on its side.

I guess the e300s have cheap interiors. Refurb the e400s, keep them on 6. Never know might get rid of them as they are non standard bus in fleet.



Thats why i go upstairs, keep the seats downstairs for older people. Singles can be pain to get on or off when busy. Plus good view from upstairs.

I get some like to sit near the engine to hear the 'thrash'

It's been a while since I ventured north of the border and experienced them but if they're anything like the 12 plate e400s down here, they will be looking a bit scruffy inside.

Of course, the B7Ls have now gone where you could experience the "thrash" - not the best experience for the average punter though, and that was aside from the awful seats. I usually head upstairs and for the reasons you mention!

 

[route101]

Absolutely. It's too late to worry about the older Geminis and Eclipses but the mid-life stuff has time on its side.

It's been a while since I ventured north of the border and experienced them but if they're anything like the 12 plate e400s down here, they will be looking a bit scruffy inside.

Of course, the B7Ls have now gone where you could experience the "thrash" - not the best experience for the average punter though, and that was aside from the awful seats. I usually head upstairs and for the reasons you mention!

I hated sitting at the back of them B7LS , noisy, hot and stank of piss. Never really understood the thrash obsession.

Buses busiest ive seen for a while today, even had a fairly busy 4 to Cathcart from Town. LT02NWC out on 57.

 

[PaulMc7]

Not been on any buses today but seen a good few that were certainly busier. Think moving into Tier 4 restrictions tomorrow at 6pm has sent so many people to last minute shopping. Seen a 90 at Parkhead and there was a massive queue for the bus. Seen on the app that the 60/60A were very late on multiple occasions today too but it's understandable. Once Glasgow Fort is busy the way they go in and out of the Fort is a nightmare for cars trying to get into the car parks

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I hated sitting at the back of them B7LS , noisy, hot and stank of piss. Never really understood the thrash obsession.

Buses busiest ive seen for a while today, even had a fairly busy 4 to Cathcart from Town. LT02NWC out on 57.

Depend on your vantage point. I do get why some enthusiasts liked B7Ls, on account of their relative rarity. Also, the "thrash" thing linked to speed and exhilaration (relatively).

Being dispassionate as an average punter, they were terrible. As you say, the intrusion into the main saloon meant they were noisy and hot; can't say about the pungency of any aroma but then again, they had awful seats that had little cushioning when new and less so when they were threadbare. Not great machines and few tears shed when they headed off.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Depend on your vantage point. I do get why some enthusiasts liked B7Ls, on account of their relative rarity. Also, the "thrash" thing linked to speed and exhilaration (relatively).

Being dispassionate as an average punter, they were terrible. As you say, the intrusion into the main saloon meant they were noisy and hot; can't say about the pungency of any aroma but then again, they had awful seats that had little cushioning when new and less so when they were threadbare. Not great machines and few tears shed when they headed off.

The issue with noise and heat was just due to the insulation losing effectiveness over time. Our B7LAs had the insulation in the engine bay fully replaced 5 years ago and it made a huge difference. The "toilet box" design on the B7L/LA wasn't due to the engine position but rather the fact the radiator was above the engine. The B10L for example had the engine in the exact same position but had the radiator on the offside instead.

 

[Strathclyder]

As far as my enthusiast side is concerned, B7Ls were indeed a novelty. As a punter/passenger, B10BLEs and B7RLEs were a cut above them. As for the seats/padding thereof, that was the standard interior spec for the period; the last B10BLEs, Tridents, B7TLs, Darts etc, also had them. While not brilliant on their own, it did little to enhance the First B7L travelling experience, new or threadbare. Overall, they were a decent idea, but poorly suited to the UK market. In many ways the Roadliner & Wulfrunian of it's era. All that aside, am glad a couple have been saved for preservation, including one from one of the biggest operators of the type within First (SA02 BZE).

 

[Jordan Adam]

As far as my enthusiast side is concerned, B7Ls were indeed a novelty. As a punter/passenger, B10BLEs and B7RLEs were a cut above them. As for the seats/padding thereof, that was the standard interior spec for the period; the last B10BLEs, Tridents, B7TLs, Darts etc, also had them. While not brilliant on their own, it did little to enhance the First B7L travelling experience, new or threadbare. Overall, they were a decent idea, but poorly suited to the UK market. In many ways the Roadliner & Wulfrunian of it's era. All that aside, am glad a couple have been saved for preservation, including one from one of the biggest operators of the type within First (SA02 BZE).

The main benefit of the BxL chassis layout was that it allowed a step free three door layout in right hand drive countries, something which isn't needed at all in the UK. The low floor argument was generally flawed too as you still had a step up to the seats towards the back. so to operators it really was just the loss of seats and poorer engine access they saw, the engine position for some reason also meant they gulped coolant and oil at a much faster rate than B7RLEs despite both having the same engine. The B10BLEs were better laid out than the B7RLEs as the floor layout towards the rear was flat and lower making them feel quite airy. Whereas the B7RLEs have quite a few steps and from the last row you're pretty much sitting on the roof with no windows to look out of, legroom is also not that great on B7RLEs.

 

[Strathclyder]

The main benefit of the BxL chassis layout was that it allowed a step free three door layout in right hand drive countries, something which isn't needed at all in the UK. The low floor argument was generally flawed too as you still had a step up to the seats towards the back. so to operators it really was just the loss of seats and poorer engine access they saw, the engine position for some reason also meant they gulped coolant and oil at a much faster rate than B7RLEs despite both having the same engine. The B10BLEs were better laid out than the B7RLEs as the floor layout towards the rear was flat and lower making them feel quite airy. Whereas the B7RLEs have quite a few steps and from the last row you're pretty much sitting on the roof with no windows to look out of, legroom is also not that great on B7RLEs.

Yeah, the B7RLE does have it's drawbacks, legroom and cramped seating among them. Being a skinny 6'+ streak o' misery, I feel this particularly acutely when riding RLEs. And yeah, that the BxL's layout was better suited to right-hand drive countries (notably Continental Europe) was what I was referring to. Volvo insisting on the B7L as a B10BLE replacement was what drove more than a few prospective customers to Scania for their L94UB as a alternative. As a example, noted (not to mention erstwhile) Lanarkshire independent Hutchision's of Overtown decided for their 2002 and 2003 low-floor heavyweight saloon purchases to go for the L94UB with Wright Eclipse Solar bodywork, only going back to Volvo when they started offering the B7RLE, buying 4 of the earliest Eclipse Urban-bodied B7RLEs built for the British market in 2004 (two pairs in March & June that year). These were the last vehicles Hutchison's ever bought new before selling up to FiG in the summer of 2007 (the only reason I even brought 'Hutchie' up lol); the RLEs being the only vehicles that came as part and parcel of that purchase to remain in service into the latter half of 2020.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The issue with noise and heat was just due to the insulation losing effectiveness over time. Our B7LAs had the insulation in the engine bay fully replaced 5 years ago and it made a huge difference.

Indeed but then again, having a design that a) requires that and b) then doesn't have it done, doesn't get away from the fact that they were noisy and hot.

As for the seats/padding thereof, that was the standard interior spec for the period; the last B10BLEs, Tridents, B7TLs, Darts etc, also had them. While not brilliant on their own, it did little to enhance the First B7L travelling experience, new or threadbare.

Yeah, that period between 1999 and 2002 was blighted by those. I remember some B10BLEs of the X-ADK/Y-CSF batch rather than the older indigenous ones here - lovely except for those seats!

 

[JumpinTrainz]

B7Ls were awful buses. I remember them when new on the 61. They were always horrid. They rattled from day one, they were very loud for a new bus not to mention the smell of pee from the back. I always preferred a B10BLE as they were nicer all round but they all had quite uncomfy seating.

The B7RLEs definitely were a step up from the B7Ls. They were speedy and were my favourite up until FG ran them to the ground without a refurb. They’re way past their prime now which is a shame they could have been refurbed mid life and continued on in the fleet for years to come as they’re solid buses.

 

[route101]

Indeed but then again, having a design that a) requires that and b) then doesn't have it done, doesn't get away from the fact that they were noisy and hot.



Yeah, that period between 1999 and 2002 was blighted by those. I remember some B10BLEs of the X-ADK/Y-CSF batch rather than the older indigenous ones here - lovely except for those seats!

I was on the Trident yesterday, had them hard seats. Now only one left in fleet.

 

[PaulMc7]

Roads must be absolute chaos today with non-essential retail closing. Seen 3 60s together earlier and now on the app there's still a lot of bunching on different routes and major lateness. Was looking at Easterhouse and there was 3 60As together and even the 3rd was 10 mins late meaning the 1st would have had to have been 50 mins late. Had a feeling it would be like that though so nothing any driver can do

 

[route101]

Roads must be absolute chaos today with non-essential retail closing. Seen 3 60s together earlier and now on the app there's still a lot of bunching on different routes and major lateness. Was looking at Easterhouse and there was 3 60As together and even the 3rd was 10 mins late meaning the 1st would have had to have been 50 mins late. Had a feeling it would be like that though so nothing any driver can do

I was in the town yesterday around 5, Union St/Renfield St was chokka with buses, more due to the roadworks, looks like now two lanes down there.

 

[PaulMc7]

I was in the town yesterday around 5, Union St/Renfield St was chokka with buses, more due to the roadworks, looks like now two lanes down there.

Yeah that's definitely a problem too. Maryhill Road was already horrendous about 3pm. Going by looking at the app most roads are bad

 

[KGGXXXY]

Planning application in for Caledonia Depot for a memorial garden on Glasgow Panning website, reinstating war memorials from old depots that are in storage.

20/02936/FUL | Formation of memorial garden. | 100 Cathcart Road Glasgow G42 7BH

 

[LT02 NVV]

B7Ls were awful buses. I remember them when new on the 61. They were always horrid. They rattled from day one, they were very loud for a new bus not to mention the smell of pee from the back. I always preferred a B10BLE as they were nicer all round but they all had quite uncomfy seating.

The B7RLEs definitely were a step up from the B7Ls. They were speedy and were my favourite up until FG ran them to the ground without a refurb. They’re way past their prime now which is a shame they could have been refurbed mid life and continued on in the fleet for years to come as they’re solid buses.

The only problem with the B7s was the engine, it was so loud and it was on the left side of the bus, I never wanted to sit at the back of them, just in case my left eardrum bursts.

Apart from that they where nice buses, SJ51 DKL was the best one in the fleet, mostly because it kept it’s Barbie livery before it got withdrawn and scrapped, but it was quite a powerful bus in the B7 fleet. I think that the B7s where best on the 7 and 7a services, though I think I they sucked on the 16 because the 16 was better with Presidents.

Certainly singles only became popular when First Glasgow appeared! As a passenger almost always favour a decker, and i almost always sit upstairs. Just more comfortable!

I think with Edinburgh , its a denser city and theres more routes with no train alternative!



Still have a few years in them, oldest are 17! Do you use the train now?

Due to COVID, I haven’t used public transport in a while.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The only problem with the B7s was the engine, it was so loud and it was on the left side of the bus, I never wanted to sit at the back of them, just in case my left eardrum bursts.

Apart from that they where nice buses, SJ51 DKL was the best one in the fleet, mostly because it kept it’s Barbie livery before it got withdrawn and scrapped, but it was quite a powerful bus in the B7 fleet. I think that the B7s where best on the 7 and 7a services, though I think I they sucked on the 16 because the 16 was better with Presidents.

That's quite a problem though They were powerful but allied to that, they were noisy and hot. Also, the seats were from that First Group era where the seats had minimal padding; after a few years, it felt like fabric stretched over bare plastic. Certainly a downgrade from the B10BLEs and the subsequent B7RLEs. I'm also led to believe that they were very heavy on fuel.

I think that the last B7Ls are with Leicester (some loaned to Worcester at the mo) and the last few ones in West Yorkshire so they've done well to rack up 18 years service!

 

[LT02 NVV]

I honestly think the B7RLE is better than any E300 or E200MMC because they preform a lot better and thrash better.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I honestly think the B7RLE is better than any E300 or E200MMC because they preform a lot better and thrash better.

I agree. I’ve never been a fan of the Enviro range (excluding the E400s and E500s they’re nice sturdy buses) but I’ve always found the E300s/E200s much more flimsy. It’s like travelling on a dart. I get First wanting them lighter for fuel and the environmental factors but they aren’t as sturdy as buses like the B7RLEs/B10BLEs etc.

 

[route101]

I honestly think the B7RLE is better than any E300 or E200MMC because they preform a lot better and thrash better.

They are not as sharp as they were when they were introduced. I think Scotstoun had the first ones for the 18. As for thrash, is that engine noise?

 

[Jordan Adam]

They are not as sharp as they were when they were introduced. I think Scotstoun had the first ones for the 18. As for thrash, is that engine noise?

Thrash is just a generic and heavily overused enthusiast term for "driven aggressively".

You're right, many of the earlier B7RLEs are really showing their age, some still run well but some are well past it now, it doesn't help that the earlier B7RLE/Eclipse Urbans had a number of issues both structurally and mechanically, which were mostly rectified when the Euro 4 variant came along, of which Glasgow have none. We have Euro 4 variants up here and although they may not sound as nice from an enthusiast perspective they're superior vehicles in practically every aspect.

I agree. I’ve never been a fan of the Enviro range (excluding the E400s and E500s they’re nice sturdy buses) but I’ve always found the E300s/E200s much more flimsy. It’s like travelling on a dart. I get First wanting them lighter for fuel and the environmental factors but they aren’t as sturdy as buses like the B7RLEs/B10BLEs etc.

The E300s i would be inclined to agree can feel flimsy i disagree about the E200MMCs. From a passengers point of view the E300s are probably the best of the lot as internally they're very airy, heating is good, plenty of opening windows with good air circulation and legroom is generous at pretty much all seats. Compare that to the B7RLEs which are very crammed, often leak like sieves, can often be too hot in the summer and yet too cold in the winter. You've also got to consider running costs, the E300s go through significantly less fuel per day than the B7RLEs, once you consider the size of the fleet the savings of running E300s over B7RLEs is huge.

 

[route101]

Thrash is just a generic and heavily overused enthusiast term for "driven aggressively".

You're right, many of the earlier B7RLEs are really showing their age, some still run well but some are well past it now, it doesn't help that the earlier B7RLE/Eclipse Urbans had a number of issues both structurally and mechanically, which were mostly rectified when the Euro 4 variant came along, of which Glasgow have none. We have Euro 4 variants up here and although they may not sound as nice from an enthusiast perspective they're superior vehicles in practically every aspect.

The E300s i would be inclined to agree can feel flimsy i disagree about the E200MMCs. From a passengers point of view the E300s are probably the best of the lot as internally they're very airy, heating is good, plenty of opening windows with good air circulation and legroom is generous at pretty much all seats. Compare that to the B7RLEs which are very crammed, often leak like sieves, can often be too hot in the summer and yet too cold in the winter. You've also got to consider running costs, the E300s go through significantly less fuel per day than the B7RLEs, once you consider the size of the fleet the savings of running E300s over B7RLEs is huge.

Your right about the eclipes, hot in summer! E300s seem to run short gear or economy mode

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Your right about the eclipes, hot in summer! E300s seem to run short gear or economy mode

The E300s have got 6 speed ZF gearboxes in them so they trundle along almost at tick over.

They do get going when drivers push them though.

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

The E300s are nippy, superb going up hills.

 

[PaulMc7]

I remember early last year getting an E300 on the 21 as a rare occasion and the hill at the beginning of Fernhill Road is miles better on an E300 compared to the old tat the 21 used to get quite regularly. Older buses certainly struggle there compared to the E300s and the branded buses on the 65

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thrash is just a generic and heavily overused enthusiast term for "driven aggressively".

You're right, many of the earlier B7RLEs are really showing their age, some still run well but some are well past it now, it doesn't help that the earlier B7RLE/Eclipse Urbans had a number of issues both structurally and mechanically, which were mostly rectified when the Euro 4 variant came along, of which Glasgow have none. We have Euro 4 variants up here and although they may not sound as nice from an enthusiast perspective they're superior vehicles in practically every aspect.

The E300s i would be inclined to agree can feel flimsy i disagree about the E200MMCs. From a passengers point of view the E300s are probably the best of the lot as internally they're very airy, heating is good, plenty of opening windows with good air circulation and legroom is generous at pretty much all seats. Compare that to the B7RLEs which are very crammed, often leak like sieves, can often be too hot in the summer and yet too cold in the winter. You've also got to consider running costs, the E300s go through significantly less fuel per day than the B7RLEs, once you consider the size of the fleet the savings of running E300s over B7RLEs is huge.

Thrash is one of those words that is grossly overused in enthusiast circles. I'd not agree totally that it is necessarily indicative of aggressive driving, but along with "bashing" buses or trains, thrash is a word that makes my bones itch!!

The older B7RLEs are now 15 years old and counting.... Good as they've been, it's only to be expected that they are looking a bit tired though, as Transdev have shown, you can do a good refurb and with some private plates, you'd not know that it's a fifteen year old bus. Not new, granted, and even then you have to recognise that all good things come to an end.

As you say, e300s (esp the ADL ones) are much cheaper to run, both in terms of fuel but also in terms of parts, and that is only exacerbated as the Eclipses get older. It's a massive cost difference as you rightly point out. In terms of comfort... I think it depends. The First examples on the ADL chassis do feel lightweight but they are bright and airy as you say; that they probably need a mid life refurb is probably the bigger issue. However, the Stagecoach examples on a Scania chassis seem to be more robust and ride better. Still, the e200mmc is a step up. I was a little disappointed with the First ones in Fareham, which are supposed to be higher spec, and it would be better if they could have specced those to nearer Stagecoach Gold level. Having something like that on the One would've been a good move but hey ho.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Thrash is one of those words that is grossly overused in enthusiast circles. I'd not agree totally that it is necessarily indicative of aggressive driving, but along with "bashing" buses or trains, thrash is a word that makes my bones itch!!

That's true, It doesn't really have any meaning which is why i find it quite an annoying term.

The older B7RLEs are now 15 years old and counting.... Good as they've been, it's only to be expected that they are looking a bit tired though, as Transdev have shown, you can do a good refurb and with some private plates, you'd not know that it's a fifteen year old bus. Not new, granted, and even then you have to recognise that all good things come to an end.

There's only so much you can do. There does come a point where refurbishing an older bus just doesn't make sense. With the older Euro 3 B7RLEs they are prone to certain issues, one specifically is the structural integrity of the floor at the rear which over time is prone to coming loose, this was an issue that was caught years ago on early examples and is why from 2007 (07 plate) Wright revised the floor design at the rear. I wouldn't be surprise if we start seeing the poorer examples gradually withdrawn as newer/new buses become available. As while some of them are still fantastic, others are not so.

As you say, e300s (esp the ADL ones) are much cheaper to run, both in terms of fuel but also in terms of parts, and that is only exacerbated as the Eclipses get older. It's a massive cost difference as you rightly point out. In terms of comfort... I think it depends. The First examples on the ADL chassis do feel lightweight but they are bright and airy as you say; that they probably need a mid life refurb is probably the bigger issue. However, the Stagecoach examples on a Scania chassis seem to be more robust and ride better. Still, the e200mmc is a step up. I was a little disappointed with the First ones in Fareham, which are supposed to be higher spec, and it would be better if they could have specced those to nearer Stagecoach Gold level. Having something like that on the One would've been a good move but hey ho.

Agree, i've had Stagecoach E300s up here on longer journeys and i couldn't really complain, yes they rattle but find a bus that doesn't... The bodywork fittings are perhaps flimsy on them but they are rugged reliable go anywhere buses and that's really what matters. The operator can send them out and know they'll come back. Not sure i would entirely agree regarding the Scanias, yes they're on a heavy weight chassis so ride better at speed but they're woefully slow/underpowered and their reliability isn't much to shout about. I could never get my head around how Scania got so little power/torque out of a 9 litre engine. At least one good thing about the Scania's is they don't carry a ticking grenade at the rear like the MANs do...

E200MMCs do very much come down to spec, part of First's issue is they only typically buy the 4cyl Voith examples. In the 4cyl ones the Allisons box is far better, Voith ones are too sluggish pulling off. My only experience with 6cyl E200MMCs is with those up at Elgin and Inverness on the 10/11 (Stagecoach 26127-34) and they were perfectly fine buses, i'm not a huge fan of the interiors but that's more an issue with the spec rather than vehicle design.