• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,529
Location
Aberdeen
The Streetlites can be upgraded to Euro 6 whereas the B7TL's can only go as far as Euro 4. However, B9TL's can be upgraded to Euro 6 as well and I believe this happened once they were transferred from West Lothian to Glasgow, wither or not this was upon arrival or after a while of being there is beyond what I know.
The B7TLs can be upgraded to Euro 6, they're just not eligible for government funding so the operator would have to cover the cost entirely themselves. A small number of Xplore Dundee's B7TLs have previously been upgraded.
Ah! Thanks, I didn't realise the first production ones had Euro V engines.
Cummins was only ever offered at Euro 5 on the Streetlite, they dropped it and standardised with Daimler engines for Euro 6.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Volvodart

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2010
Messages
2,391
They were eligible for funding in the first round of the Scottish Government funding, but to do so now any bus company in Scotland would have to pay the full cost of conversion which is likely to be more anyway as Adblue would need to be fitted to the bus.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029

Considering the cuts that is still a sorry amount of cancellations out of West Lothian
 

CN04NRJ

Established Member
Joined
28 Nov 2019
Messages
1,714
Location
UK

Considering the cuts that is still a sorry amount of cancellations out of West Lothian

How long can this be sustainable? If they can't even run a basic level of a skeleton service what even is the point?
 
Joined
31 Dec 2021
Messages
802
Location
Glasgow
If Lothian can't expand enough to take more passengers First will survive
Generally speaking the only reason they have survived this far is because they extend nationally.

But there is currently no company that that can expand outside of sightseeing buses it would seem.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
Generally speaking the only reason they have survived this far is because they extend nationally.

But there is currently no company that that can expand outside of sightseeing buses it would seem.
Passenger loyalty still seems to be a thing even in West Lothian to be fair. At the very least I expect First to still be there this time next year. Not sure how much of a service will operate but I don't see them pulling out
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
Survive how? They can't even run the emergency skeleton service brought in the other day.
They're also reducing their operating costs by doing that though remember. Less money on fuel etc. Unless the Traffic Commissioner starts getting involved which at this point I'd be surprised they'll be fine for remaining in the area. Not being able to cover their services isn't fine but it won't stop them surviving unless Lothian win far more people over
 

CN04NRJ

Established Member
Joined
28 Nov 2019
Messages
1,714
Location
UK
They're also reducing their operating costs by doing that though remember. Less money on fuel etc. Unless the Traffic Commissioner starts getting involved which at this point I'd be surprised they'll be fine for remaining in the area. Not being able to cover their services isn't fine but it won't stop them surviving unless Lothian win far more people over

By that same logic they could pack up operations altogether and their fuel/staffing costs would be £0.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
By that same logic they could pack up operations altogether and their fuel/staffing costs would be £0.
It would but it's not impossible that all this mess has done is actually made them break even. As much as it's not helping passengers this could be helping the pockets quite well
 

CN04NRJ

Established Member
Joined
28 Nov 2019
Messages
1,714
Location
UK
It would but it's not impossible that all this mess has done is actually made them break even. As much as it's not helping passengers this could be helping the pockets quite well

I don't think you quite grasp the concept of a bus company that provides public services. It's not a positive that not running registered services "saves them money" so they could potentially "break even".
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
I don't think you quite grasp the concept of a bus company that provides public services. It's not a positive that not running registered services "saves them money" so they could potentially "break even".
Given I rely on First I do. It's a positive to those at the top and that's my point. Money is the most important thing to them
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,169
Given this bus driver shortage has affect MANY companies and has gone on for months now, its unlikely the Traffic Commissioner.

Of course it's strange how Lothians No275 with a 30min service still could not compete with First No21 which was hourly and kept on having gaps...
 

RomeoCharlie71

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2017
Messages
1,725
Location
Scotland
Of course it's strange how Lothians No275 with a 30min service still could not compete with First No21 which was hourly and kept on having gaps...
Or perhaps there's a lack of demand? The unreliability of First and the constant Lothian Country route/timetable changes are not passenger friendly in the slightest, and could likely have pushed more folk into cars.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,169
Or perhaps there's a lack of demand? The unreliability of First and the constant Lothian Country route/timetable changes are not passenger friendly in the slightest, and could likely have pushed more folk into cars.

Unfortunley It really does look like something like this has happen, We could also include Broxburn.
 

stevenedin

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2021
Messages
1,164
Location
Edinburgh
I think that the Council need to properly work with bus companies to help them boost people’s confidence in public transport. They should get a network in place, stick to it and bring in a proper good value ticket or pass that allows you to travel on any bus service (or One-Ticket should be subsidised by the Council so that West Lothian residents get some sort of discount and this would help grow passenger numbers).
 
Joined
31 Dec 2021
Messages
802
Location
Glasgow
They're also reducing their operating costs by doing that though remember. Less money on fuel etc. Unless the Traffic Commissioner starts getting involved which at this point I'd be surprised they'll be fine for remaining in the area. Not being able to cover their services isn't fine but it won't stop them surviving unless Lothian win far more people over
No, if you had say a 20 minute frequency and had a full compliment of driver to operate that service but are reducing that frequency to every 30 minutes because ridership had decreased and therefore revenue had fallen, certainly, there would be a saving there by reducing the frequency under normal circumstances.

However, simply reducing a posted timetable frequency will not under current circumstances save anything, if the bus is already not running it is not using fuel but it is also not collecting revenue either, it’s a double-edged sword so to speak, however, factor in costs like road tax etc and it’s become more bleak the then there’s the sustainability factor to consider.

Not sustainability in term of just revenue but also sustainability in terms of your ridership numbers in the future if you lose your so called “loyalty” from passengers.

Or perhaps there's a lack of demand? The unreliability of First and the constant Lothian Country route/timetable changes are not passenger friendly in the slightest, and could likely have pushed more folk into cars.
Expected unreliability at First or refinement of what Lothian Country is offering is not the same thing.

If both cut because they have to, I’m fine with that, but if you cut and even then don’t have the driver numbers or dedication from your workforce your up a creak with no paddle.

I assume that Lothian Country changing things up in West Lothian was to allow more drivers to be placed on to the 43 being increased in frequency to every 20 minutes, given that it operates in the Edinburgh council area and will likely be taking superior revenue than some other Lothian Country routes that operate within West Lothian Only.

I won’t dispute it with anyone, Factually I guarantee you that Lothian Country have already soaked up the ridership along the West Lothian-Edinburgh corridors on the x18 & x28, aside from Larburts x38 of course given that it’s serving Linlithgow, Winchburgh and Kirkliston.

If Lothian Country keeps that up long term and LC can generate & maintain loyalty, that is not good for the future prospects of Livingston depot offering domestic services outside of council contracts like the 20, 63 & 68 or maybe even schools or the dribbles of people found on the x25 between Blackridge & Almondvale, the 280 & x25 are carrying similar amounts, however, that is not enough, particularly if we are to see yet further cuts.

Given I rely on First I do. It's a positive to those at the top and that's my point. Money is the most important thing to them
It’s was and likely still is, my guess is that this is one of the very reasons that the company is in such a bad way.

I’ll tell you this much, most bus drivers would rather aspire to drive a 12yr old B7RLE than they would a Wright StreetLite.

Livingston’s Streetlites are some of the worst vehicles I’ve driven in years, few bus driver would choose not to relate to this, it’s a simple thing but it’s still particularly relevant.

StreetLites being both cheaper to buy and cheaper to run than an equivalent heavy weight bus.

I think that the Council need to properly work with bus companies to help them boost people’s confidence in public transport. They should get a network in place, stick to it and bring in a proper good value ticket or pass that allows you to travel on any bus service (or One-Ticket should be subsidised by the Council so that West Lothian residents get some sort of discount and this would help grow passenger numbers).
I specifically would say that the future goal for many of our local authority councillors or our devolved GOV is to municipalise/nationalise buses before any reform of major funding was to be considered, for the simple fact that tax payer money should not be at the beckon call to a private company.

Unfortunley It really does look like something like this has happen, We could also include Broxburn.
convenience is king for a majority now, even if we had a great, well connected bus network.
 
Last edited:

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
I think that the Council need to properly work with bus companies to help them boost people’s confidence in public transport. They should get a network in place, stick to it and bring in a proper good value ticket or pass that allows you to travel on any bus service (or One-Ticket should be subsidised by the Council so that West Lothian residents get some sort of discount and this would help grow passenger numbers).
This is the ideal situation to be honest everywhere in Scotland but the problem is councils are strapped for cash and so is our government currently so I doubt it's possible
 

stevenedin

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2021
Messages
1,164
Location
Edinburgh
Is anyone else having issues viewing First West Lothian services on the app? None are coming up for me at all. It was like that the other day too.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
Is anyone else having issues viewing First West Lothian services on the app? None are coming up for me at all. It was like that the other day too.
It's not worked since the changes. They have been testing the cancellation feature too from what I noticed last week so hopefully when the timetables are fixed that is too
 

ScotRail158725

Established Member
Joined
27 Nov 2018
Messages
2,175
What are they (attempting to) use on the X38 now, is it 100% Streetlites?
I've noticed Streetlites on it more often over the past couple of weeks, however I could be unlucky and seeing the only Streetlite on the route a few days in a row.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

RomeoCharlie71

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2017
Messages
1,725
Location
Scotland
What are they (attempting to) use on the X38 now, is it 100% Streetlites?
It was 100% Streetlite operated on Saturday, much to my disappointment. I endured 90 minutes of 63260 from Falkirk to Edinburgh and made sure to grab hold of the pole on the emergency exit to stop the horrendous rattling/vibrating every time the bus sat at idle...
 

stevenedin

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2021
Messages
1,164
Location
Edinburgh
It was 100% Streetlite operated on Saturday, much to my disappointment. I endured 90 minutes of 63260 from Falkirk to Edinburgh and made sure to grab hold of the pole on the emergency exit to stop the horrendous rattling/vibrating every time the bus sat at idle...
Ouch that sounds like an uncomfortable journey.

I’ve just had a trip to West Lothian. I travelled on 69292 (which looks like it has had a retrim on the seats but the older pattern) this was on the X22.

I also went on E&M Horsburgh RIG 6492 (which smelt damp and water leaking from the roof).

I travelled on Lothiancountry as well and it was strange I witnessed 2 times this evening where a First bus was in front of a Lothiancountry bus and the LC bus couldn’t get past so beeped the horn and the First driver ignored them. Is there really a rivalry going on between the drivers?
 

Mickcloud9

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2022
Messages
49
Ouch that sounds like an uncomfortable journey.

I’ve just had a trip to West Lothian. I travelled on 69292 (which looks like it has had a retrim on the seats but the older pattern) this was on the X22.

I also went on E&M Horsburgh RIG 6492 (which smelt damp and water leaking from the roof).

I travelled on Lothiancountry as well and it was strange I witnessed 2 times this evening where a First bus was in front of a Lothiancountry bus and the LC bus couldn’t get past so beeped the horn and the First driver ignored them. Is there really a rivalry going on between the drivers?
I have commented on this before and got quite a roasting for it. First are employing bully tactics, hanging back on LC, jamming them in at stops, driving deliberately slow in front of them, hanging back at Traffic lights in the hope of getting the LC bus stuck on a red. The hogging of bus stops in Livingston Centre, Bathgate etc. especially where the Bathgate Partnership Centre is. Using that stop as a changeover and or a timepoint, given the amount of services that use it, is completely bizarre. Having worked for and against First, I can confirm these are just some of the tactics they use to antagonise competitors. I wish them every failure as they deserve all they get. Just hope the drivers at both First and Lothian realise that if an accident occurs as a result of these stupid tactics, the companies will, pardon the pun, throw them under the bus. First are the worst company for these tactics and believe me when I say I have experienced it first hand on several occasions over the last 20+ years in the industry. This is their game, and like I’ve stated, I wish them every failure.
 

ScotRail158725

Established Member
Joined
27 Nov 2018
Messages
2,175
It was 100% Streetlite operated on Saturday, much to my disappointment. I endured 90 minutes of 63260 from Falkirk to Edinburgh and made sure to grab hold of the pole on the emergency exit to stop the horrendous rattling/vibrating every time the bus sat at idle...
Streetlites are not suited to the Falkirk local routes let alone the X38
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top