First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[Busaholic]

It’s perfectly normal practice for circular open tops all over the U.K. to carry passengers through.

I'm not querying the practice, only suggesting that it hadn't happened in this neck of the wood until recently. Actually, I'm not too aware of many circular open top routes in the U.K., as opposed to sightseeing tours, especially since the vexed issue of council recompense for free concessionary pass use raised its ugly head. I've no need to remind you of how the then First local management aborted the previous circular service when Cornwall Council (wrongly,imo) decreed it would be illegal for them to recompense the company.

 

[On the Buses]

I'm not querying the practice, only suggesting that it hadn't happened in this neck of the wood until recently. Actually, I'm not too aware of many circular open top routes in the U.K., as opposed to sightseeing tours, especially since the vexed issue of council recompense for free concessionary pass use raised its ugly head. I've no need to remind you of how the then First local management aborted the previous circular service when Cornwall Council (wrongly,imo) decreed it would be illegal for them to recompense the company.

Illegal? There’s nothing illegal about reimbursing.

 

[Lizard1324]

The turn out today on the L1 has been very good.
With the open top B9tl being nearly full upstairs when leaving the Lizard at 2:45 today, whereas the Tfc E400mmc was sat empty.

 

[Goldfish62]

The turn out today on the L1 has been very good.
With the open top B9tl being nearly full upstairs when leaving the Lizard at 2:45 today, whereas the Tfc E400mmc was sat empty.

Land's End Coaster was rammed today. I've never seen the buses so consistently busy. All open top again, including the Falmouth Coaster interloper.

Are you saying that passengers are being carried across Penzance on the same bus (though presumably with a change of driver)? If so, I think that might be a first in local open top history, though happy to be corrected.

Yes, they're carried across Penzance. The schedule wasn't really set up to do it before.

 

[Busaholic]

Illegal? There’s nothing illegal about reimbursing.

I have a letter from Cornwall Council Transport Department saying that, in their opinion, it would be illegal to reimburse First for passengers travelling on circular route 300 as the service was primarily run for tourists. In conjunction with the Cornishman newspaper, which had more readership and influence in those days, I took exception to that comment and asked why, in that case, the Council had 'illegally' (by their terms) reimbursed the bus company for that service the previous summer, when the law had not changed one jot since then. I never received a reply. Still got the newspaper cuttings, but the letter could be anywhere. The one season special 'vintage vehicle' Lands End to St Ives via Zennor service with a special, premium fare was, I believe, because Cornwall Council had belatedly looked at the whole of the relevant act and belt and braces like had decided that both they and First could get away with not reimbursing, for the simple reason that First was not offering a free ride for passholders in the first place! It was an inglorious period that was brought to a end when, without any public announcement, the Council must have decided it was no longer illegal to reimburse and sanity prevailed.

 

[On the Buses]

I have a letter from Cornwall Council Transport Department saying that, in their opinion, it would be illegal to reimburse First for passengers travelling on circular route 300 as the service was primarily run for tourists. In conjunction with the Cornishman newspaper, which had more readership and influence in those days, I took exception to that comment and asked why, in that case, the Council had 'illegally' (by their terms) reimbursed the bus company for that service the previous summer, when the law had not changed one jot since then. I never received a reply. Still got the newspaper cuttings, but the letter could be anywhere. The one season special 'vintage vehicle' Lands End to St Ives via Zennor service with a special, premium fare was, I believe, because Cornwall Council had belatedly looked at the whole of the relevant act and belt and braces like had decided that both they and First could get away with not reimbursing, for the simple reason that First was not offering a free ride for passholders in the first place! It was an inglorious period that was brought to a end when, without any public announcement, the Council must have decided it was no longer illegal to reimburse and sanity prevailed.

Interesting. There’s nothing illegal
If that’s the word they use. It wouldn’t break any law!

 

[farwest]

I think the Council look a bit (!!) stupid on the Lizard. They are running a subsidised 34 which is empty and then paying for concession holders to use the L1.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think the Council look a bit (!!) stupid on the Lizard. They are running a subsidised 34 which is empty and then paying for concession holders to use the L1.

However, the 34 tender also covers 0630 to 0900, after 1800 to 2400, runs from Helston to Redruth, serves Ruan properly, and also will operate hourly all year round unlike First Kernow.

Knocking off a few journeys whilst the open toppers are working may seem simple enough but it isn't.

 

[Goldfish62]

On Twitter Marc Morgan Huws has just posted that a third bus is being acquired for the Exmoor Coaster. LX60DXH (36100) a Volvo B9TL/Gemini 2, formerly with London City Tour and new to GoAhead London.

 

[richw]

On Twitter Marc Morgan Huws has just posted that a third bus is being acquired for the Exmoor Coaster. LX60DXH (36100) a Volvo B7TL/Gemini 2, formerly with London City Tour and new to GoAhead London.

It’s a B9TL not a B7TL

 

[83G/84D]

On Twitter Marc Morgan Huws has just posted that a third bus is being acquired for the Exmoor Coaster. LX60DXH (36100) a Volvo B7TL/Gemini 2, formerly with London City Tour and new to GoAhead London.

Interesting choice of vehicle, I wonder how it will manage on Porlock Hill. I thought that if another bus was required a similar type would be chosen.

 

[baza585]

However, the 34 tender also covers 0630 to 0900, after 1800 to 2400, runs from Helston to Redruth, serves Ruan properly, and also will operate hourly all year round unlike First Kernow.

Knocking off a few journeys whilst the open toppers are working may seem simple enough but it isn't.

Indeed it isn't. I'm not familiar with the terms of the contract, so the council may not care if GA are not getting the money they expected to take.

 

[Goldfish62]

It’s a B9TL not a B7TL

I actually thought that's what I'd written but Spellchecker obviously decided otherwise!

 

[swifty]

On Twitter Marc Morgan Huws has just posted that a third bus is being acquired for the Exmoor Coaster. LX60DXH (36100) a Volvo B9TL/Gemini 2, formerly with London City Tour and new to GoAhead London.

Although DXH is pictured (from the Ensign website) it was actually sold to D&E Coaches and is in use on City Sightseeing work around Inverness as S90 YST. I think the only one of that batch left in store at Ensign is LX60 DXB.

Wishful thinking but there are some Omnicities in stock at Ensgin that could be converted to open top if it continues to do well this summer?

 

[TechDan2002]

Interesting choice of vehicle, I wonder how it will manage on Porlock Hill. I thought that if another bus was required a similar type would be chosen.

That’s if it sees Porlock Hill. My assumption would be that it’s for the Watchet to Minehead feeder service.

 

[Lizard1324]

I think the Council look a bit (!!) stupid on the Lizard. They are running a subsidised 34 which is empty and then paying for concession holders to use the L1.

As said the 34 is needed early morning and late evening, but could easily only run from Redruth to Helston after 10 when the L1 starts.
The only issue I see is the L1 doesn't return to ruen on the way to Helston like the 34, but I can't see why the council doesn't give first some money to add it to the L1. This would save money as you aren't paying for the entire round trip for the 34 and you don't have two polluting buses.

 

[cnjb8]

Interesting choice of vehicle, I wonder how it will manage on Porlock Hill. I thought that if another bus was required a similar type would be chosen.

Not really, it’s basically 37729 with an updated front

 

[vla50]

Although DXH is pictured (from the Ensign website) it was actually sold to D&E Coaches and is in use on City Sightseeing work around Inverness as S90 YST. I think the only one of that batch left in store at Ensign is LX60 DXB.

Wishful thinking but there are some Omnicities in stock at Ensgin that could be converted to open top if it continues to do well this summer?

I think it's on loan to Stagecoach East (DXB)?

 

[Trainfan061193]

That’s if it sees Porlock Hill. My assumption would be that it’s for the Watchet to Minehead feeder service.

Exactly because I really wonder how it can get up Porlock Hill…

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As said the 34 is needed early morning and late evening, but could easily only run from Redruth to Helston after 10 when the L1 starts.
The only issue I see is the L1 doesn't return to ruen on the way to Helston like the 34, but I can't see why the council doesn't give first some money to add it to the L1. This would save money as you aren't paying for the entire round trip for the 34 and you don't have two polluting buses.

All you will save is not running the 34 for a few months between Helston and Lizard, so that will largely just the fuel; not that great a saving as you still have to pay the full standing charge for the vehicle.

Now you're saying that any saving would be given to First as a de-minimis diversion? However, as has been explained, not only would the L1 then require an additional vehicle (so more than outweighing any saving) AND also jeopardise all the connections in Helston.

That probably explains why they aren't doing anything

That’s if it sees Porlock Hill. My assumption would be that it’s for the Watchet to Minehead feeder service.

Exactly because I really wonder how it can get up Porlock Hill…

It's a Volvo B9, so it really should have enough grunt for those hills; after all, B9s have managed to operate the Jurassic Coast services for many years. I imagine that the plan is that they have the three open toppers for the route and that when a vehicle is VOR, the Watchet feeder will be single decked unlike today when any failure means the main route is singled as well.

Hopefully, it indicates how well the service is doing that it justifies some extra investment.

 

[LAIRA]

PCB 67 left Milehouse today being towed by Wigleys wrecker and driver said he is going to Cambourne next week to collect buses. They normally come west on a Tuesday.

 

[Whiteway215]

What candidates do we have to go to Wigleys? 33143 or 33172 or 33181?
Are there any other scrappers at Camborne at the moment?

 

[83G/84D]

What candidates do we have to go to Wigleys? 33143 or 33172 or 33181?
Are there any other scrappers at Camborne at the moment?

Only the vehicles for Ensign that I can think of.

 

[Goldfish62]

Exactly because I really wonder how it can get up Porlock Hill…

I've not experienced Porlock Hill, but how does it compare with Chywoone Hill in Newlyn or the hill out of Sennen Hill, both of which are renowned for their steepness even for secondary roads?

 

[swifty]

I've not experienced Porlock Hill, but how does it compare with Chywoone Hill in Newlyn or the hill out of Sennen Hill, both of which are renowned for their steepness even for secondary roads?

Porlock Hill is the steepest A road in England and has a maximum gradient of 25%. Chywoone Hill is ‘only’ 14% and Cove Hill’s maximum is 20%.

Not really, it’s basically 37729 with an updated front

Which operates on the Atlantic Coaster and not in Somerset. Marc has previously said, about the Scanias, that they’d waited along time for suitable vehicles to come on the market to use on the route.

 

[SeveerYeliab]

One of the replies on his tweet asks whether it will be on the feeders. He replied that it won't be, and will be used as engineering spare and duplicate cover.

 

[Goldfish62]

One of the replies on his tweet asks whether it will be on the feeders. He replied that it won't be, and will be used as engineering spare and duplicate cover.

Which makes perfect sense because running a service with no engineering spares of the advertised type of bus is not generally a good idea.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've not experienced Porlock Hill, but how does it compare with Chywoone Hill in Newlyn or the hill out of Sennen Hill, both of which are renowned for their steepness even for secondary roads?

As @swifty says, it is appreciably steeper than Cove Hill out of Sennen, and not to forget that Countisbury Hill out of Lynmouth is also a 1:4!

I'd imagine that the Scanias will be the preferred vehicles for the Lynmouth run, with the B9 acting as back-up on the Watchet feeder but being put on the Lynmouth service when a Scania is VOR. EDIT: just seen that it's not going to be on the feeder.... we shall see.

Roger French did a good write up on the service when one of the Scanias was VOR and a Solar had to deputise, and said that he hoped a third vehicle could be sourced. I've not been down since the service commenced (though drove the A39 in mid May) and on the photos I've seen, it seems to be doing a good trade. It's on my "to do" list. Seems that the route needs duplication at times so well done to FSW for identifying the opportunity and then executing it with good operational disciplines and top notch marketing.

 

[Goldfish62]

As @swifty says, it is appreciably steeper than Cove Hill out of Sennen, and not to forget that Countisbury Hill out of Lynmouth is also a 1:4!

So it's steep then!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So it's steep then!

Oh yes - it's steep. In fact, as the gradient is calculated on the centre line, the actual bends are a bit steeper still as this photo (credit to photographer) illustrates

Digging into the climb.

The precipitous road that scales the side of Porlock Hill in Somerset, has gone down in British transport history in a similar way to that of Shap. There however the comparison ends, for whilst the Shap route climbed for many miles onto the wild and unpredictable Cumbrian Fells, Porlock Hill...

www.flickr.com

As for Sennen, I remember getting one of the A-VAF Olympians and never thought it would make it! Mind you, it was 25 years old. The vehicle policy makes a lot of sense - elderly O/T Tridents on less demanding and more experimental services, the newer e400s on the Atlantic as that's fairly demanding (and they have an existing knowledge of likely patronage) and then some hard core stuff for the punishing Exmoor Coaster route. I wonder if the EC is even beating FSW's expectations for a commercial punt?

Out of interest, when does the season finish on the Exmoor Coaster?