Fishguard Rail Service Review

[Rhydgaled]

A review has been launched into the future of the Fishguard rail service, with the 3yr trial due to end in September. I tried to extract the final date of the trial service was ATW but without success, although I'm guessing September 6th is the last day of service under the current arrangement.

Interestingly, the results of the review are not due until August, but ATW have published their full timetable through to December on the assumtion that the service will continue as-is. One wonders what will happen if (heaven forbid) WAG refuses to fund additional trains after the trial ends in September. Will ATW be able to make a last-minute change to the service or will they have to run it at their own expence through to December?

There are three surveys seeking the views of passengers (and potential ones), two online (one of which is for businesses to fill in) and an on-train. Anyone who would like to comment on the service, now seems to be your chance.

One of the questions in the 'community survey' asks what improvements to the service would help improve usage further. This includes suggestions, which would mitigate three of the four major shortcomings of the current Fishguard-Carmarthen service:

1. remaining long gaps in the daytime frequency
2. changes of train at Clarbeston Road
3. train arriving Carmarthen at 08:45 versus 08:57

The remaining shortcoming is of course the lack of Sunday services.

There are two other major shortcomings, bus/rail integration in north Pembrokeshire (and south Ceredigion) and uncompetitive journey times from Carmarthen to stations east of Swansea on most services (with the possible exception of the 'Fishguard Flyer' daytime boat train). These aren't, however, directly related to the provision of a decent Fishguard-Carmarthen rail service.

 

[Gareth Marston]

This was always going to be a difficult one in the Ministers in box as the numbers using Fishguard were never going to look that impressive given its a town of c5k not in commuter distance of a big city. However cancelling the service will give Plaid a stick to beat Labour with in an area that is marginal.

 

[Rhydgaled]

This was always going to be a difficult one in the Ministers in box as the numbers using Fishguard were never going to look that impressive given its a town of c5k not in commuter distance of a big city. However cancelling the service will give Plaid a stick to beat Labour with in an area that is marginal.

Never was going to be hugely impressive I agree, but the few figures that have been released (mainly for the 1st year of service) suggest an increase in line with the consultant's estimate. This despite:

• Changes required at Clarbeston Road
• Not a 2-hourly all-day service (still some very long gaps between trains)
• Withdrawal of Stena Lynx service just prior to launch of rail service
• Delayed openning of Fishguard & Goodwick station

I haven't seen the consultants reports, but would any of the above four shortcomings have been predicted by them and taken account of in the estimate?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Never was going to be hugely impressive I agree, but the few figures that have been released (mainly for the 1st year of service) suggest an increase in line with the consultant's estimate. This despite:

• Changes required at Clarbeston Road
• Not a 2-hourly all-day service (still some very long gaps between trains)
• Withdrawal of Stena Lynx service just prior to launch of rail service
• Delayed openning of Fishguard & Goodwick station

I haven't seen the consultants reports, but would any of the above four shortcomings have been predicted by them and taken account of in the estimate?

It's still a market with a very small finite potential I don't think the scores on the doors will count that much as it was a political choice to fund it in the first place and the WG will be very reluctant to be seen cutting things. I think some sort of service will be kept and this along with the Cambrian and HOW extras will certainly put some pressure on the budget when Gerald comes up for renewal in May next year.

 

[Greenback]

It's still a market with a very small finite potential I don't think the scores on the doors will count that much as it was a political choice to fund it in the first place and the WG will be very reluctant to be seen cutting things. I think some sort of service will be kept and this along with the Cambrian and HOW extras will certainly put some pressure on the budget when Gerald comes up for renewal in May next year.

I agree. I can't see the Fishguard service being axed, but there may be some amendments or tweaks.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I lost count of the other passengers alighting at Fishguard & Goodwick at 18:45ish today, a fair bit over 30 I believe.

 

[quarella]

I lost count of the other passengers alighting at Fishguard & Goodwick at 18:45ish today, a fair bit over 30 I believe.

A goodly number but I would suggest half term week may have increased the number of people travelling. I would be interested to know what a term-time mid week loading is like and how that compares to the usually busier Friday service.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A goodly number but I would suggest half term week may have increased the number of people travelling. I would be interested to know what a term-time mid week loading is like and how that compares to the usually busier Friday service.

I suspect the North Pembrokeshire Transport Forum have a fair idea.

 

[Greenback]

I have seen and heard quite a few saying they are travelling through to Fishguard on my frequent journeys on the 1705 ex Swansea.

 

[merlodlliw]

Had a look at the website through the link,the train times may not have changed but its May 2013 timings.If you really want to keep some of the trains,it may be an idea to show you are on the ball with everything.I do not intend to be picky.

I wish them the best of luck,The Cambrian was an excellent example of how to do it.


Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Had a look at the website through the link,the train times may not have changed but its May 2013 timings.If you really want to keep some of the trains,it may be an idea to show you are on the ball with everything.I do not intend to be picky.

I wish them the best of luck,The Cambrian was an excellent example of how to do it.


Bob

My arms still sore from filling all those surveys in!

 

[merlodlliw]

My arms still sore from filling all those surveys in!

Spoil sport,we gogs(North Walians) use our fingers,perhaps we should have a survey on the Dee/Seven line

 

[causton]

I have seen and heard quite a few saying they are travelling through to Fishguard on my frequent journeys on the 1705 ex Swansea.

Used it both ways on my ALR trip the other week... was quite busy both ways. Not full and standing but about 2/3 full, like the other trains we had been on in the area

 

[Starmill]

Used it both ways on my ALR trip the other week... was quite busy both ways. Not full and standing but about 2/3 full, like the other trains we had been on in the area

And the sad thing is your cash probably didn't count as far as supporting the service goes because it wasn't to a named station in West Wales!

I wonder how many West Wales Day Rangers are sold?

 

[Olaf]

Used it both ways on my ALR trip the other week... was quite busy both ways. Not full and standing but about 2/3 full, like the other trains we had been on in the area

If the services are managing 2/3 loading, then that is just about enough to justify further funding.

 

[merlodlliw]

If the services are managing 2/3 loading, then that is just about enough to justify further funding.

If some services are two thirds loaded,would ATW assist with reduced funding,as a social gesture to continue the service.


Clarbeston Rd seems an odd service, I wonder what loading is on those.

Interestingly, the results of the review are not due until August, but ATW have published their full timetable through to December on the assumtion that the service will continue as-is. One wonders what will happen if (heaven forbid) WAG refuses to fund additional trains after the trial ends in September. Will ATW be able to make a last-minute change to the service or will they have to run it at their own expence through to December?

If the funding of £1.5million? a year is stopped, ATW will have a choice,run the service at its own expense,I don't think so, or simply put out an addendum to the timetable that services have stopped.
The ball is in WGs corner,no obligation on ATW to continue run the services in its no growth franchise.

 

[Olaf]

If some services are two thirds loaded,would ATW assist with reduced funding,as a social gesture to continue the service.


Clarbeston Rd seems an odd service, I wonder what loading is on those.



If the funding of £1.5million? a year is stopped, ATW will have a choice,run the service at its own expense,I don't think so, or simply put out an addendum to the timetable that services have stopped.
The ball is in WGs corner,no obligation on ATW to continue run the services in its no growth franchise.

Yes the decision rests with the Welsh Government; ATW is not a charity.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Clarbeston Rd seems an odd service, I wonder what loading is on those.

The evening Clarbeston Road to Fishguard working is an essential component of the Fishguard service, providing the only arrival before midnight that allows departure from Cardiff after 5pm. It is a fair bit quieter than the afternoon/evening Cardiff/Gloucester to Fishguard through service, but it suffers from crowding of the connecting service at Cardiff and being the last train of the day. It therefore isn't clear how much having to change at Clarbeston Road impacts on the patronage of that service. The morning Clarbeston Road -> Fishguard service is essentially just a positioning move for the 08:04 FGH-MAN service, and probably runs empty.

If the funding of £1.5million? a year is stopped, ATW will have a choice,run the service at its own expense,I don't think so, or simply put out an addendum to the timetable that services have stopped.
The ball is in WGs corner,no obligation on ATW to continue run the services in its no growth franchise.

Sure, ATW have no obligation to run the service without funding until the end of the franchise. What I'm not clear on is whether publishing the timetable means they have an obligation to run it for the period of the published timetable. Also, if they've rosted staff and stock to work the service, would withdrawing it before they can change the rosters actually save them much money anyway? It would obviously be withdrawn in December, if not before, if WAG don't fund it.

 

[merlodlliw]

Thanks for the info on Clarbeston Rd

Sure, ATW have no obligation to run the service without funding until the end of the franchise. What I'm not clear on is whether publishing the timetable means they have an obligation to run it for the period of the published timetable. Also, if they've rosted staff and stock to work the service, would withdrawing it before they can change the rosters actually save them much money anyway? It would obviously be withdrawn in December, if not before, if WAG don't fund it.

[/QUOTE]

In a similar vain ATW put out a leaflet when the service started mid timetable,so I am sure they would do the same,publishing the timetable would have no effect on retaining the extra services as they are not franchise trains.
At its worst,I imagine WG would run the service to December as a good will gesture,the Minister could run it to the next WG elections, then its somebody else,s problem as this current Minister is retiring.

This may interest you Rhydgaled, Gwynedd bus Company goes bust and stops running services http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/padarn-bus-company-to-close-7193698 some of the services effect Bangor Rail Station so I understand,

 

[edwin_m]

Sure, ATW have no obligation to run the service without funding until the end of the franchise. What I'm not clear on is whether publishing the timetable means they have an obligation to run it for the period of the published timetable. Also, if they've rosted staff and stock to work the service, would withdrawing it before they can change the rosters actually save them much money anyway? It would obviously be withdrawn in December, if not before, if WAG don't fund it.

That's an interesting one re the timetable - might have been wise to add a footnote saying continuation of the service is subject to extension of the funding.

Unless ATW have made a major dropoff, their agreed price to WG to run the service would cover all their costs and ensure they were not out of pocket if the funding did not continue beyond the agreed date.

 

[Starmill]

What is the Manchester Piccadilly and it's positioning movement generally worked by? A 158?

 

[PHILIPE]

What is the Manchester Piccadilly and it's positioning movement generally worked by? A 158?

A 175 as virtually everything to Manchester is.

 

[Starmill]

A 175 as virtually everything to Manchester is.

Interesting, I tried to google pictures of a 175 on the line to no avail. Seems like you do get a sniff of the good stock then And I think the first departure of the morning is booked a 158 but sometimes turns up as a 150 :/ Sundays particularly lots of 150s have been turning up on Manchester services recently.

 

[PHILIPE]

Interesting, I tried to google pictures of a 175 on the line to no avail. Seems like you do get a sniff of the good stock then And I think the first departure of the morning is booked a 158 but sometimes turns up as a 150 :/ Sundays particularly lots of 150s have been turning up on Manchester services recently.

There are a couple of 150s booked on a Sunday due to a shortage of 175s (they are all stuck in the wrong place). The only 158s booked to Fushguard are the midday Boats and the 14 35 Gloucester to Fishguard Hbr. The first out is the same 175 to Clarbeston Rd and then returning for the Manchester.
The Clarbeston Rds connect in and out of Milford Haven services in order to avoid an extra unit.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Interesting, I tried to google pictures of a 175 on the line to no avail. Seems like you do get a sniff of the good stock then.

If I remember correctly from what others have said on here and the Coffee Shop Forum, the only Mon-Sat Fishguard services which are booked for 150/Pacer (I forget which) are the Fishguard-Carmarthen just before 10am and the working (from Cardiff that splits from a Pembroke Dock train at Whitland) which forms that service.

The Clarbeston Rds connect in and out of Milford Haven services in order to avoid an extra unit.

Except the morning one from Clarbeston Road into Fishguard (the 07:34 from Clarbeston Road), which has no connection and thus runs just to get the 175 into place to work the 08:04 from Fishguard.

 

[PHILIPE]

If I remember correctly from what others have said on here and the Coffee Shop Forum, the only Mon-Sat Fishguard services which are booked for 150/Pacer (I forget which) are the Fishguard-Carmarthen just before 10am and the working (from Cardiff that splits from a Pembroke Dock train at Whitland) which forms that service.

Except the morning one from Clarbeston Road into Fishguard (the 07:34 from Clarbeston Road), which has no connection and thus runs just to get the 175 into place to work the 08:04 from Fishguard.

And the Night Boats.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That's an interesting one re the timetable - might have been wise to add a footnote saying continuation of the service is subject to extension of the funding.

Unless ATW have made a major dropoff, their agreed price to WG to run the service would cover all their costs and ensure they were not out of pocket if the funding did not continue beyond the agreed date.

ATW quoted for this on the basis of a nominal cost per DMU operated mile calculated by dividing all their costs by the total number of unit miles operated to give a £ and p sum per mile. As no new units were acquired for this service and no extra station staff the real additional cost was substantially lower than the nominal average which includes a load of apportioned cost elsewhere on the ATW network which would exist with or without Fishguard.

 

[PHILIPE]

And they went to the expense of building a new station as well, or re-opening an old one at Fishguard and Goodwick.

 

[Kite159]

So the 10:57 saturday service from Cardiff to Fishguard is likely to be a 150?

Hopefully not a 150/1 as those are rather dreadful

 

[Gareth Marston]

And they went to the expense of building a new station as well, or re-opening an old one at Fishguard and Goodwick.

They being Pemrokeshire CC not ATW