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Flexibility of changing - Exeter or Plymouth?

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It is hard to be honest on the suggested services. I use a very frequent line with at train about every 15 minutes so I often get the train before the suggested service to make the connection, why rush over Waverley in 10 minutes when you can give yourself 25 and the chance for some refreshments as well. No-one really cares about that but where do you draw the line, if I left 1 hour before my suggested service I would expect questions to be asked.

Likewise I can change at Haymarket or Edinburgh, if heading North my train arrives in platforms 8 or 9 at Waverley I will stay on to Haymarket rather than get off at Waverley. No-one has ever bothered me but the ticket checks don't take place between those stations anyway. But it would be a different matter if that choice was say Waverley and Inverkiething.
 

Zoe

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If no booking is made then it can't be a booked train. Seat Resverations are NOT required for it to be a book train as SWT issue resevation coupons for their advance fares stating the booked train. If you are not issued with evidence of booking then how are you supposed to know what train to get? I get the imperssion though that the person has made two separate advance bookings and so they would have been issued with a resevation coupon for both and would have to travel on booked trains only.
 

TEW

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It can't be two separate AP tickets. The first train is unreservable and AP tickets for journeys exclusively on that train will not be offered.
 

radamfi

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If no booking is made then it can't be a booked train. Seat Resverations are NOT required for it to be a book train as SWT issue resevation coupons for their advance fares stating the booked train. If you are not issued with evidence of booking then how are you supposed to know what train to get? I get the imperssion though that the person has made two separate advance bookings and so they would have been issued with a resevation coupon for both and would have to travel on booked trains only.

In the days of long 'airline' tickets, it used to say "SUGGESTED SERVICE" next to non-reserved trains. Surely if says 'suggested', then what is debateable about that?

Is it still possible to get 'airline' tickets?
 

island

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Allegedly thetrainline issues them if you get your ticket by post.
 

yorkie

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Yes, the wording "SUGGESTED SERVICE" used to be used on the old large style tickets, and I agree that makes it pretty clear that the service is suggested but if it suits you can get an alternative train to connect. Unfortunately it is less clear on the new style tickets, and there is a myth that you can't get a reservable train without a reservation, yet nowhere is this documented.

We've had situations where people have been 'told off' for taking such trains, indeed someone posted a similar case, I think from Truro, where someone took a different connecting train from Truro to Plymouth, but they were not charged (and nor would I expect them to be).

As I pointed out in previous examples someone from say, Clapham Jn to York, would find at some times for there to be simultaneous trains, one reserveable and one non-reserveable and there would be no way to distinguish the two, nor would anyone care which you caught.
 

Zoe

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Here's a question though: The above person has a booking from Exeter to Paddington. The rules on this are quite clear, they may only use the booked train for this part of the journey. Could they get any train to Plymouth though and then change onto the Paddington train there, using that as the connection to Exeter where the booked part of the journey starts? If they can then the only difference is that they can sit anywhere from Plymouth to Exeter but only in their booked seat from Exeter.

It may be argued that since the connection runs direct to Exeter that you are not allowed to alight at Plymouth.
 

LexyBoy

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Here's a question though: The above person has a booking from Exeter to Paddington. The rules on this are quite clear, they may only use the booked train for this part of the journey. Could they get any train to Plymouth though and then change onto the Paddington train there, using that as the connection to Exeter where the booked part of the journey starts? If they can then the only difference is that they can sit anywhere from Plymouth to Exeter but only in their booked seat from Exeter.

It may be argued that since the connection runs direct to Exeter that you are not allowed to alight at Plymouth.


I was wondering about a similar scenario. If the connection is not specified, then it should be fine. But- what happens if the service is started short at Exeter, and cancelled from Plymouth? I suspect that it could be considered as not leaving enough interchange, even though the passenger was expecting not to have to leave the train.
 

hairyhandedfool

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If no booking is made then it can't be a booked train. Seat Resverations are NOT required for it to be a book train as SWT issue resevation coupons for their advance fares stating the booked train. If you are not issued with evidence of booking then how are you supposed to know what train to get?....

Ask for the travel itinerary??? The vast majority of passengers I sell advance fares to ask for a travel itinerary, even when all services are reserved!

.... Unfortunately it is less clear on the new style tickets, and there is a myth that you can't get a reservable train without a reservation, yet nowhere is this documented....

Are we back here again? If the Op's ticket had a booked change at Plymouth in the first place, would they have a reservation from Plymouth to London or from Exeter?

Given that they are only valid on booked services, it is a clear case of changing travel plans if they do not have a reservation for the service!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
.... But- what happens if the service is started short at Exeter, and cancelled from Plymouth? I suspect that it could be considered as not leaving enough interchange, even though the passenger was expecting not to have to leave the train.

Given the passenger is only booked on the service from Exeter and that there was a train to get to Exeter in time (the one they were on!), I think it is buy new ticket time.
 

Zoe

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Ask for the travel itinerary??? The vast majority of passengers I sell advance fares to ask for a travel itinerary, even when all services are reserved!
So the onus is on the passenger then to ask which trains they are allowed to travel on even if a reservation has not been made? If so then I think it should be clearly stated. It should also be made compulsory to carry the itinerary.
Given that they are only valid on booked services, it is a clear case of changing travel plans if they do not have a reservation for the service!
Again, how can it possibly be a booked service when no booking is made? The booked part of the journey is Exeter to London.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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So the onus is on the passenger then to ask which trains they are allowed to travel on even if a reservation has not been made? If so then I think it should be clearly stated. It should also be made compulsory to carry the itinerary....

The passenger makes a commitment to board a certain service, the onus is on the passenger to get on that service, or do you think the railway should force them into car from wherever they are, drive them to the station and push them onto the service?

....Again, how can it possibly be a booked service when no booking is made? The booked part of the journey is Exeter to London.

The ticket is only valid on booked services*, that is fact, it cannot be denied. If the only booked service is the one from Exeter, how does the Op get from Truro to Exeter?


*Unless routed '& connections'
 

Zoe

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The passenger makes a commitment to board a certain service, the onus is on the passenger to get on that service, or do you think the railway should bow to the passengers every whim?
I will ask again, is the onus on the passnger to ask the ticket office staff what restrictions apply other than stated on the ticket?


The ticket is only valid on booked services*, that is fact, it cannot be denied. If the only booked service is the one from Exeter, how does the Op get from Truro to Exeter?
For it to be a booked service then by definition a booking has to be made. Other than the service from Exeter to Paddington no such booking has been made.
 

LexyBoy

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The ticket is only valid on booked services*, that is fact, it cannot be denied. If the only booked service is the one from Exeter, how does the Op get from Truro to Exeter?


*Unless routed '& connections'

How can a service be 'booked' if there are no details of it printed on the ticket? The vast majority of passengers will ask for a printed itinerary because they want a nice smooth journey where it's clear which trains to catch, where to change etc - which isn't always clear from the ticket for non-regular travellers. However it's not required for travel - only the ticket and reservation are.

Armed with the ticket reservation stating the time of the Exeter-Paddington train, how do I know which train I'm supposed to use to get to Exeter? Looking at the timetable I'd expect to get a train which gets me into Exeter as close to the departure as possible (accounting for the interchange time).
 

Zoe

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Armed with the ticket reservation stating the time of the Exeter-Paddington train, how do I know which train I'm supposed to use to get to Exeter?
The above post suggsets the onus is on you to ask the staff for an itinerary to find out which trains you are allowed to travel on. Should you not do this and elect to travel on a train that wouldn't have been on the itinerary had you asked for it then you would be breaking the conditions of your ticket.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I will ask again, is the onus on the passnger to ask the ticket office staff what restrictions apply other than stated on the ticket?....

The ticket office are required to tell the passenger that they can only use the booked services, failure to do so may require a new ticket to be bought. They will also tell the passenger the time of the train they must be on. From this point it is upto the passenger to make sure they get on that service. They have been told the time of the train, if the passenger cannot remember it, they may request a print out of the itinerary.

....For it to be a booked service then by definition a booking has to be made. Other than the service from Exeter to Paddington no such booking has been made.

So your answer is that they can't get from Truro to Exeter then?

How can a service be 'booked' if there are no details of it printed on the ticket? The vast majority of passengers will ask for a printed itinerary because they want a nice smooth journey where it's clear which trains to catch, where to change etc - which isn't always clear from the ticket for non-regular travellers. However it's not required for travel - only the ticket and reservation are.

Armed with the ticket reservation stating the time of the Exeter-Paddington train, how do I know which train I'm supposed to use to get to Exeter? Looking at the timetable I'd expect to get a train which gets me into Exeter as close to the departure as possible (accounting for the interchange time).

Consensus on here seems to be that you can't use any trains to get to Exeter anyway, because you can only use the booked trains and none are booked to Exeter.

The above post suggsets the onus is on you to ask the staff for an itinerary to find out which trains you are allowed to travel on. Should you not do this and elect to travel on a train that wouldn't have been on the itinerary had you asked for it then you would be breaking the conditions of your ticket.

You agreed to use a particular service though, so you should know which service you agreed to use, but as you say the service isn't booked and you can't use services that aren't booked, I guess you can't travel. That really makes a lot of sense to me, thanks for clearing that up, crystal clear that is, superb.
 

Zoe

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You agreed to use a particular service though, so you should know which service you agreed to use, but as you say the service isn't booked and you can't use services that aren't booked, I guess you can't travel. That really makes a lot of sense to me, thanks for clearing that up, crystal clear that is, superb.
So the ticket office staff will read out every single train then and the onus is on the customer to either memorize this or ask for an itinerary?
 

hairyhandedfool

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The clerk may use their discretion ofcourse, but they can't assume that the passenger can read.
 

Zoe

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The clerk may use their discretion ofcourse, but they can't assume that the passenger can read.
So the onus is on the customer to ask for written details of the trains they are allowed to use? The only duty of the ticket office is to read out the list?
 

hairyhandedfool

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The passenger must be made aware of all restrictions of the ticket. They must be given all parts of the ticket. The passenger is responsible for arriving at the origin station in good time and getting on the correct service(s).
 

Zoe

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The passenger must be made aware of all restrictions of the ticket. They must be given all parts of the ticket. The passenger is responsible for arriving at the origin station in good time and getting on the correct service(s).
So the ticket office don't have to inform the passenger what trains they are booked on then? The onus is indeed on the passenger to ask for this information?
 
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hairyhandedfool

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All the restrictions have to be given to the passenger, this includes time restrictions.

The passenger has the responsibility on getting the correct train, so if they are told the time of the train, there is no reservation coupon for it and they can't remember it, they should request a printed itinerary, however, the clerk can offer it also.
 

cle

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Wow, so much interest - thanks all. Yorkie very kindly PM-ed me for further info, I'll paste what I replied:
--------------
Hi,

I'm picking it up from the machine so don't have it to hand.

It was an advanced Truro - London ticket, with the change in Exeter, not split tickets or anything fancy. I fear the answer is probably no - and can't ask TM as the HST might not be there or open at Plymouth yet, and then the other connection would be gone.

Suppose I could buy a Plymouth - Exeter single...but am I even allowed off at Plymouth?!
 

hairyhandedfool

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....Suppose I could buy a Plymouth - Exeter single...but am I even allowed off at Plymouth?!

That is a good question. You can't start, break and resume, or end your journey short of the origin/destination. But you can use two or more tickets to make one journey. So provided you did not attempt to leave the station (unless instructed by staff to do so) at Plymouth or Exeter, I think that would be permitted.
 

LexyBoy

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The passenger is responsible for arriving at the origin station in good time and getting on the correct service(s).

So given that they do not have a reservation for the journey to Exeter, why is it not acceptable for them to travel there with a change at Plymouth - which just happens to be onto the train they will be catching from Exeter?

There's a risk that the Paddington train may start at Exeter, but it's not likely and they could just stay on their original train if this is the case.
 

Zoe

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So given that they do not have a reservation for the journey to Exeter, why is it not acceptable for them to travel there with a change at Plymouth - which just happens to be onto the train they will be catching from Exeter?
If you read above you will see that even though you will have no reservation, you will have been told the times for all your trains you must use regardless of if there is a reservation or not. The onus is then on you to remember these times, record them or request a printed copy.
 

LexyBoy

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If you read above you will see that even though you will have no reservation, you will have been told the times for all your trains you must use regardless of if there is a reservation or not. The onus is then on you to remember these times, record them or request a printed copy.

According to hairyhandedfool... My interpretation of the FGW T&Cs suggests that it's only the train(s) specified on the ticket which must be used.

FGW Advance ticket T&Cs said:
Your ticket is only valid for the date, reserved train(s) and reserved seat(s) shown on your ticket(s), plus local connecting train services to and from your reserved train. Advance fares are only available on long distance train journeys across our region.
 

hairyhandedfool

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So given that they do not have a reservation for the journey to Exeter, why is it not acceptable for them to travel there with a change at Plymouth - which just happens to be onto the train they will be catching from Exeter?

There's a risk that the Paddington train may start at Exeter, but it's not likely and they could just stay on their original train if this is the case.

You are permitted to use only the booked trains (unless routed '& connections') and you will always be given reservations for any reservable service you are booked on. So if you board a reservable service without a reservation on a ticket not routed '& connections' you are clearly not following the original travel plans. A change of travel plans incurs a £10 admin charge (plus the difference in fare) and cannot be done on the train.

Of course, the guard may be lenient in this case as the journey is effectively the same, but that is not a right the passenger has.

If the train was cancelled from Plymouth and run only from Exeter the Op's ticket would be useless if they didn't continue on the service they were originally on, to get to Exeter, unless there happens to be another suitable service.
 

Zoe

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In that case then you'd risk a penalty fare and possibly prosecution by joining the train at Plymouth.
 

yorkie

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In that case then you'd risk a penalty fare and possibly prosecution by joining the train at Plymouth.
The two have nothing to do with each other, and neither would apply in the case of breaking journey (including starting/finishing short) when not entitled to.

Megatrain made up a rule suggesting that they felt they were exempt from the usual rules and that they could issue Penalty Fares for such a situation. This was put to the test and the penalty fare was quashed (source: told to me directly by SWT staff).
 
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