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France to ban some domestic flights where train available

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miklcct

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Is there a similar ban related to ferry as well in any country? - i.e. air service is not allowed if there is a ferry linking two sides of a sea under certain hours. For example, these kind of restrictions can rule out Helsinki to Tallinn flights.
 
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Bald Rick

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Is there a similar ban related to ferry as well in any country? - i.e. air service is not allowed if there is a ferry linking two sides of a sea under certain hours. For example, these kind of restrictions can rule out Helsinki to Tallinn flights.

Aren’t ferries worse for CO2 over short distances than flights? (On a per passenger basis).
 

miami

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I presume the French proposal relates to city centre times, in which case Newcastle (just), Plymouth and Newquay are the only English air routes that would survive.

Travel from Altrincham to Windsor, that's 4 hours each way. Plane is by far the most sensible route timewise (under 2 hours door to door), followed by the car.

Bradford to Central London is 3 hours, so even by the "city centre to city centre" argument, a LeedsBradford->LondoHeathrown service would be fine (if it resumed)

Fundamentally there are very few flights operating in the UK where there's a train that does even a named city centre - city centre route in under 2h30, because they aren't commercially viable. Manchester hangs on because of the connecting traffic, especially with how hard it is to get the Heathrow on public transport.
 

MattRat

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Fundamentally there are very few flights operating in the UK where there's a train that does even a named city centre - city centre route in under 2h30, because they aren't commercially viable. Manchester hangs on because of the connecting traffic, especially with how hard it is to get the Heathrow on public transport.
With how hard it is to traverse London full stop. Pretty certain you could cover the 35 miles between Liverpool and Manchester before you could traverse across London.
 

S&CLER

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There is an interesting article in today's Le Figaro about SNCF's plans for fares reform. I haven't got the link to hand, but if you Google Le Figaro you will soon find it. It is not one of the articles behind a subscribers'-only paywall.
 

miami

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With how hard it is to traverse London full stop. Pretty certain you could cover the 35 miles between Liverpool and Manchester before you could traverse across London.

Fastest cross London trip would probably be Finsbury Park to East Croydon, 40 minutes by train averaging about 25 mph, and even that isn't the full length.

37 minutes will get you Lime Street to Victoria at 51mph.

HS2 should signal the end for Manchester-Heathrow flights and possibly even Glasgow/Edinburgh-Heathrow.
 

A0wen

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HS2 should signal the end for Manchester-Heathrow flights and possibly even Glasgow/Edinburgh-Heathrow.

Given alot of the Manchester - Heathrow traffic is connecting traffic, I'm not sure that will be appreciated. You'd basically be telling the north of England if you want to travel anywhere longish distance, then you'll have to get a train to London to then get the plane - can't see that going down particularly well. The connecting flights also mean people can be immigration and customs cleared before arriving at Heathrow.

On the Scottish ones - no chance. The SNP would be up in arms arguing that the UK government was 'cutting off Scotland from the rest of the UK' and would demand a few (more) squillion quid be spent up there.
 

Ianno87

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Given alot of the Manchester - Heathrow traffic is connecting traffic, I'm not sure that will be appreciated. You'd basically be telling the north of England if you want to travel anywhere longish distance, then you'll have to get a train to London to then get the plane - can't see that going down particularly well. The connecting flights also mean people can be immigration and customs cleared before arriving at Heathrow.

However, HS2 will make the rail journey easier and quicker than today (though still not as good on paper as a connecting flight). Especially if you're somewhere (such as Preston) where you'd have to get a train to Manchester then the flight (which could be replaced by a train to Old Oak then to Heathrow then flight)

On the Scottish ones - no chance. The SNP would be up in arms arguing that the UK government was 'cutting off Scotland from the rest of the UK' and would demand a few (more) squillion quid be spent up there.

Depends whether it is legislation-driven (Which a green-minded government may be), or commercially driven if HS2 does have a significant impact on connecting traffic (which i think it will, but not by all that much).
 

43096

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On the Scottish ones - no chance. The SNP would be up in arms arguing that the UK government was 'cutting off Scotland from the rest of the UK' and would demand a few (more) squillion quid be spent up there.
As the SNP wants independence they haven’t really got a leg to stand on for “cutting off Scotland from the rest of the U.K.”.
 

MattRat

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Given alot of the Manchester - Heathrow traffic is connecting traffic, I'm not sure that will be appreciated. You'd basically be telling the north of England if you want to travel anywhere longish distance, then you'll have to get a train to London to then get the plane - can't see that going down particularly well. The connecting flights also mean people can be immigration and customs cleared before arriving at Heathrow.
Depends where the flight is from. If from Europe, it's possible you'd be connecting to HS2 from HS1, removing planes from that equation entirely. Unlikely, but still possible.
 

rf_ioliver

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Is there a similar ban related to ferry as well in any country? - i.e. air service is not allowed if there is a ferry linking two sides of a sea under certain hours. For example, these kind of restrictions can rule out Helsinki to Tallinn flights.

I'd say not, for a start the ferry here serves a very different market - mainly freight - to the flights, which are mainly there for connecting traffic: Helsinki has connections to the far-east, USA etc, which Tallinn does not.

Looking at the timetable there are two HEL-TLL flights per day with ATR72 aircraft compared to (pre-COVID) some 20 crossings with 2000+ passenger capacity ferries.

Now if you had a train as is planned then this would likely kill off the flights but certainly not the ferries.
 

miami

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Given alot of the Manchester - Heathrow traffic is connecting traffic, I'm not sure that will be appreciated.

I've flown MAN-LHR or back 189 times in the last decade, most of that connecting to BA from Terminal 5. That just about works on the way out when I lived in Hale Barns -- 30 minutes from sofa to plane, 60 minutes to T5, then 60 minute minimum connection. However that relies on high frequencies. I've been sat in a lonely T5 F lounge waiting 90 minutes+ for the flight to Manchester to even start boarding.

Knowing I could have exited, hopped on a Heathrow Express, and within 60 minutes of leaving passport control be on a train with less than an hour to go is far better, and this assumes you're living near Airport or getting a taxi from there. Live nearer Crewe, Warrington, Wigan and HS2 wins far more.

As for customs - Manchester is far worse than Heathrow. If you have something to declare, having to do that at Manchester on arrivals is a major pain (it's a pain at heathrow as they don't care, but you're more likely to get sorted in half an hour or so in my experience)

To flights from T2/3/4, forget it.

From Hale Barns HS2 station it will be 90 mintues to T5 and planning to arrive an hour before takeoff, so same time if the flight connection is perfect, but on average your connection will be 2 hours, HS2 frequency makes it faster.

Setting aside T5, going to T2/3/4 it will be better to get the train, and there will be a train every 20 minutes rather than a plane every 2 hours, and no need for 2 lots of security.

When we flew to Singapore/Sydney with 18 pieces of checked baggage, sure, flying from Manchester was great - the only other option would be driving to Heathrow (or flying direct from Manchester to Singapore). But for the other 187 times I did that route, HS2 would be just as good if not better.

(Now I live in South Cheshire, I drive to Heathrow rather than going to Manchester and flying, which is bad for tier points, but good for time and flexibility)
 

Bald Rick

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I agree that some Manchester to Heathrow connecting traffic will transfer to HS2. But there will always be those BA passengers with enough hold baggage to make it awkward for them on and off the train, changing at Old Oak and then negotiating Heathrow. I’d expect MAN - LHR to have at least a couple of rotations for the North America morning wave and the Far East evening wave. And there will always be som residual domestic traffic heading to places near LHR for which the plane is easier. If BA can make a morning connection from MAN to Gatwick work, they can surely do so to LHR.
 

JamesT

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As I understand it, connecting flights are still allowed by the French law. So a British equivalent wouldn’t change much for LHR-MAN if it’s mostly connecting.
I could see London/Birmingham to Scotland’s central belt being vulnerable if HS2 can reduce the travel time sufficiently.
 

Bald Rick

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As I understand it, connecting flights are still allowed by the French law. So a British equivalent wouldn’t change much for LHR-MAN if it’s mostly connecting.
I could see London/Birmingham to Scotland’s central belt being vulnerable if HS2 can reduce the travel time sufficiently.

Correct - strictly speaking the French ban isn’t on flights, it is on selling point to point domestic tickets within the 2 1/2hr limit.

You might suggest it is slightly protectionist, in that Air France will have many more connecting passengers via CDG / Orly than their main competitor (easyJet), and therefore AF will suffer less, whilst EZY will probably pull out of the routes altogether. But in reality, it’s not many routes.
 

miami

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If BA can make a morning connection from MAN to Gatwick work, they can surely do so to LHR.

Gatwick is a right pain to get to from the North West - worse than Heathrow. Didn't realise they were back, but given how few services they have (and indeed for many years had none)

I guess the question is
1) Will BA subsidise MAN-LHR flights with just connecting passengers with large amounts of baggage given that many will prefer to take HS2 once OOC opens because of the increased connectivity and trains often going closer to your destination (why wait around at heathrow for 60-120 minutes for your plane when you could be home before you'd even board the flight at heathrow)

2) If so will it continue with the number of flights it does. If it drops to 2 per day (from something like 9?) that's still a win from a co2 perspectic.

3) Will it do a deal with HS2+Hex to offer through tickets from HS2 stations (with associated mile earnings)

On the other hand, KLM/LH always a threat for regional sourced flights - flying via AMS isn't much different to flying via Heathrow, and FRA isn't a lot worse, and they can have more flights as they get end-to-end traffic too.

Of course if HS2 goes 'booked seat only' as some want, the question is moot as the train will be worthless.
 

XAM2175

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1) Will BA subsidise MAN-LHR flights with just connecting passengers with large amounts of baggage given that many will prefer to take HS2 once OOC opens because of the increased connectivity and trains often going closer to your destination (why wait around at heathrow for 60-120 minutes for your plane when you could be home before you'd even board the flight at heathrow)
In my mind BA have the advantage in the present arrangement because a flight-to-flight connection at Heathrow on the same itinerary is protected, compared to the risk of something going astray in a rail journey from Manchester that causes you to miss your flight.

Obviously other people may view the risks and rewards differently but for me, even as a rail enthusiast, I'd be on the MAN-LHR flight unless I was prepared to leave a lot of padding in the train-to-flight transfer.

(Actually - in complete honesty I'd probably be flying out of Manchester with KLM in preference to BA, but that's another matter entirely :lol:)
 

plugwash

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Fundamentally there are very few flights operating in the UK where there's a train that does even a named city centre - city centre route in under 2h30, because they aren't commercially viable. Manchester hangs on because of the connecting traffic, especially with how hard it is to get the Heathrow on public transport.
Though HS2 will reduce the number of changes needed to get from Manchester city center to Heathrow from 2 to 1.
 

miami

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Though HS2 will reduce the number of changes needed to get from Manchester city center to Heathrow from 2 to 1.

And makes it easier to get to pretty much anywhere at Heathrow from anywhere near manchester airport easier by train - with the possible exception of T5 and maybe places like Staines and Windsor.
 
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