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From Monday 19th July - Government has laid Regulations revoking (most) restrictions

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stevetay3

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Why are we still getting so much doom and gloom from our so called leaders, they wanted another month to get more of us vaccinated, they got another month , now they say not long enough need longer. They go on about infections going up, of course infections are going up since we have had more freedom since April. Deaths are far far lower now as low as they have ever been. 1k plus a day back in January, now in low double figures , yet they are all forecasting doom and gloom. this winter unless we keep drastic restrictions in place.Why is the media not publishing the much improved death rates at all.We now need to learn to live with covid it’s going to be around a long time , after all today is supposed to be freedom day let’s get on with life with covid in the background.
 

Freightmaster

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Why are we still getting so much doom and gloom from our so called leaders, they wanted another month to get more of us vaccinated, they got another month , now they say not long enough need longer. They go on about infections going up, of course infections are going up since we have had more freedom since April. Deaths are far far lower now as low as they have ever been. 1k plus a day back in January, now in low double figures , yet they are all forecasting doom and gloom. this winter unless we keep drastic restrictions in place...
This is what it feels like to me:


(image of cartoon showing 'back to normal' date being constantly moved forward despite vaccinations)






MARK
 

quantinghome

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This is what it feels like to me:

(image of cartoon showing 'back to normal' date being constantly moved forward despite vaccinations)

MARK
The idea that there is a 'door' we go through and things a suddenly back to normal is fundamentally misplaced. In reality it's a gradual reduction in restrictions as the risks associated with Covid reduce. It's more like walking down a mountain - we're getting closer to the end of the journey but you can't just decide the trek is over - it's over when it's over.

Why are we still getting so much doom and gloom from our so called leaders, they wanted another month to get more of us vaccinated, they got another month , now they say not long enough need longer. They go on about infections going up, of course infections are going up since we have had more freedom since April. Deaths are far far lower now as low as they have ever been. 1k plus a day back in January, now in low double figures , yet they are all forecasting doom and gloom. this winter unless we keep drastic restrictions in place.Why is the media not publishing the much improved death rates at all.We now need to learn to live with covid it’s going to be around a long time , after all today is supposed to be freedom day let’s get on with life with covid in the background.
Because we don't get back to normal by wishing it to be the case. Deaths are low but they're doubling every couple of weeks and will almost certainly hit 100 per day in the next week or so. Of course that trend will stop at some point but no one really knows when. We can't just wish these realities away by arbitrarily declaring 'freedom day'. We can hardly 'get on with life with covid in the background' when hospitals are cancelling operations and reconfiguring ICUs for the increasing numbers of Covid patients.

The paradox is that getting back to normal now depends on people acting as if it might not. The more cautious we are now, the sooner the exit wave will dissipate and the earlier things will get back to normal.
 

trebor79

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The paradox is that getting back to normal now depends on people acting as if it might not. The more cautious we are now, the sooner the exit wave will dissipate and the earlier things will get back to normal.
Actually, that's not the case. The exit wave will be over sooner if more people get infected more quickly - it'll be a much higher peak of course. By "flattening the curve" you end up with a lower, but longer peak and most modellers are now in agreement that this almost certainly means more people infected overall.
If you do things to prevent people getting infected, they will get infected when you stop doing those things. There is no way around this fact, so there's no good reason to continue doing these things.

As COVID is no endemic, we are all going to be exposed to it sooner or later, there's no point hiding behind the sofa.
 

johntea

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BBC News...

Nightclubs for fully vaccinated only from end of September - Zahawi​

Zahawi has announced that people will be required to be fully vaccinated to attend "large crowded settings" such as nightclubs from the end of September - after all over-18s have had the chance to receive both vaccine doses and develop immunity.
"So at that point we plan to make full vaccination a condition of entry to nightclubs and other venues where large crowds gather, proof of a negative test will no longer be sufficient," he said.
"We will ensure the appropriate exemptions for those who have genuine medical reasons of why they can't get vaccinated and I'm clear we will always look at the evidence available and do all we can to ensure people can continue to do the things they love."

Erm...what?!
 

quantinghome

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Actually, that's not the case. The exit wave will be over sooner if more people get infected more quickly - it'll be a much higher peak of course. By "flattening the curve" you end up with a lower, but longer peak and most modellers are now in agreement that this almost certainly means more people infected overall.
If you do things to prevent people getting infected, they will get infected when you stop doing those things. There is no way around this fact, so there's no good reason to continue doing these things.

As COVID is no endemic, we are all going to be exposed to it sooner or later, there's no point hiding behind the sofa.
That would be true if we weren't vaccinating.

The modelling I've seen suggests the opposite to what you've said - the more rapidly it spread, the greater number of deaths:

1626711155197.png1626711280227.png
S1303_Imperial_College_London_Evaluating_the_Roadmap_out_of_Lockdown_for_England_modelling_the_delayed_step_4.2_of_the_roadmap_in_the_context_of_the_Delta_variant__7_July_2021__1_.pdf (publishing.service.gov.uk)

Of course there are likely to be contradictory predictive models given the uncertainties, but it would seem sensible that if a greater proportion of the population are immunised by vaccination rather than infection, the better the overall outcome will be.
 

WelshBluebird

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BBC News...

Erm...what?!

I know my views will conflict with a lot on here, but I see no problem with the idea in general.
What I don't get is why from the end of September? That is literally two months from now - by which point it hopefully should be a pointless exercise! If you are going to do such a scheme it needs to be from now (with the options to show a negative test or a historic positive test for those who can't get vaccinated), otherwise it is just pointless.
 

Bantamzen

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I know my views will conflict with a lot on here, but I see no problem with the idea in general.
What I don't get is why from the end of September? That is literally two months from now - by which point it hopefully should be a pointless exercise! If you are going to do such a scheme it needs to be from now (with the options to show a negative test or a historic positive test for those who can't get vaccinated), otherwise it is just pointless.
Maybe because this is some nudge tactics to get some more adults to take up the vaccine?
 

Bertie the bus

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I know my views will conflict with a lot on here, but I see no problem with the idea in general.
What I don't get is why from the end of September? That is literally two months from now - by which point it hopefully should be a pointless exercise! If you are going to do such a scheme it needs to be from now (with the options to show a negative test or a historic positive test for those who can't get vaccinated), otherwise it is just pointless.
Boris Johnson referenced it in his press conference. The reason he has given is because everybody will have had the opportunity to have had both doses by the end of September. Whether you agree with vaccine passports or not you can't really argue with if they are to be introduced then people should be given the opportunity to get vaccinated first.
 

Failed Unit

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I know my views will conflict with a lot on here, but I see no problem with the idea in general.
What I don't get is why from the end of September? That is literally two months from now - by which point it hopefully should be a pointless exercise! If you are going to do such a scheme it needs to be from now (with the options to show a negative test or a historic positive test for those who can't get vaccinated), otherwise it is just pointless.
I am double vaccinated. But I don’t agree with discrimination, so I can’t agree with this. I really feel for the hospitality industry here.
 

PTR 444

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Those who haven't been jabbed will fall into one of these groups:

1. Anti-vaxxers - at this point nothing will convince them.
2. Those who want to get the jabbed but haven't been able to access. This group needs attention.
3. Those who aren't against vaccines per se and could get vaccinated but don't see the point - the "I'm 50 and as fit as a fiddle" type. This group needs incentives.
4. Those who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons.
5. Those who want to protect themselves and others but are scared of needles.
6. Those who want Covid to go on forever so they can stay on furlough indefinitely.
 

Yew

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So the US is having lotteries for getting vaccinated, and we're threatening to make people second class citizens? Is Chris Whitty even aware of the existence of Carrots, or does he just have a fetish for using the Stick?
 

MikeWM

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BBC News...

Erm...what?!

Well, we know those who have had the vaccine can still get the thing. We know that those who have had the vaccine can still transmit the thing.

Presumably, if the tests are of any use whatsoever, we also know that someone testing negative doesn't have the thing.

So, you accept vaccination but not tests? Yes, that makes perfect sense.

Anyone who still thinks this is about preventing spread of a virus - as opposed to social control and the introduction of a 'papers please' society - is really not paying attention anymore.
 

takno

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Maybe because this is some nudge tactics to get some more adults to take up the vaccine?
When nudge comes to shove this is a pretty awful move. Boris has probably already lost the support of anybody who is likely to approve of it, and by announcing new measures in September he's making abundantly clear to people who want this over and done with that he doesn't have their backs.
 

brick60000

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Vaccine passports make me thoroughly uncomfortable. I will be double jabbed by September. I won’t be affected whatsoever. But we are supposed to live in a democracy - how on earth can we claim to be that when we are wilfully coercing people into having vaccinations?

am I right in reading that negative tests are no longer acceptable? If this is the case, then this is a truly outrageous turn of events.
 

XAM2175

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There's some suggestion that the tactic gets results:

Within 72 hours of the French learning they would soon need to be vaccinated or tested to go to the cafe, more than 3 million had booked appointments and France had broken its vaccination record, administering 800,000 shots in a single day.

At the same time, daily infections, driven by the more contagious Delta variant, continued to climb, reaching nearly 9,000 on Wednesday – and on Bastille Day, about 20,000 demonstrators nationwide protested against what some called a “dictatorship”.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...astille-day-amid-anger-at-tighter-covid-rules
Polls show more than 65% public support for the range of measures unveiled by Emmanuel Macron on Monday, aimed, in the president’s words, not at “making vaccination immediately obligatory for everyone … but at pushing a maximum of you to go and get vaccinated”.

...

Meanwhile, non-essential free coronavirus testing will also end in September, “to further encourage vaccination”, and healthcare professionals and retirement home workers who have not been vaccinated by 15 September will be suspended for a month to allow them to do so. Thereafter, they risk dismissal.

The big stick approach to vaccination, which goes further than that adopted by most governments, has had an immediate impact on take-up.

While 66% of French adults have received one dose and 53% are fully vaccinated, the number of first doses being administered had, in common with many western countries, started slowing as the campaign came up against more vaccine-hesitant or hard-to-reach groups.

However, in the hours after Macron’s announcement more than 20,000 slots a minute were being booked via Doctolib, France’s main medical appointments website, and Stanislas Niox-Chateau, the site’s chief executive, said vaccinations were set to accelerate rapidly to about 4.5m shots a week.

...

Though I share a certain level of scepticism around the practicality of actually checking vaccination status at any business or venue that doesn't already perform security/ticketing/proof-of-age checks at the door.
 

MikeWM

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Vaccine passports make me thoroughly uncomfortable. I will be double jabbed by September. I won’t be affected whatsoever. But we are supposed to live in a democracy - how on earth can we claim to be that when we are wilfully coercing people into having vaccinations?

As horrific as that is, we will *all* be affected by the introduction of a 'papers please' society, which is what this really is. Vaccinations are merely the mechanism into that nightmare - it won't end here.
 

quantinghome

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4. Those who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons.
Yes, definitely.
5. Those who want to protect themselves and others but are scared of needles.
Fair enough. Some positive encouragement needed. I was scared of needles but plumped up the courage to become a blood donor after imagining trying to explain that to someone needing a transfusion.
6. Those who want Covid to go on forever so they can stay on furlough indefinitely.
These people do not exist.
 

brad465

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BBC News...

Erm...what?!
I don't agree with passports like this at all, but it seems ludicrous to introduce this then, when there'll supposedly be 2 months of using them with no such condition at all. If passports were to be the only way they could open, then the logic would be to keep nightclubs closed until then, or bring passports in now along with their reopening.
Maybe because this is some nudge tactics to get some more adults to take up the vaccine?
That's what I hope this is and no more.
 

eastdyke

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They said about 50% on the press conference.
The BBC are reporting 60%:
Sir Patrick Vallance says 60% of those admitted to hospital have been fully vaccinated but he stresses this is "not surprising" as most people have now been vaccinated.

Vallance goes on to say the vaccines are most effective at stopping severe disease - and while they do help prevent you get it in the first place, that is not their main aim.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I am not sure if it was on this website or another one where someone said "old people" who were twice-vaccinated were one of the types of offenders who did not wear face coverings as they felt that they were "immune from the virus." That is one urban myth now proved to be false.
 

sjpowermac

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Well, we know those who have had the vaccine can still get the thing. We know that those who have had the vaccine can still transmit the thing.

Presumably, if the tests are of any use whatsoever, we also know that someone testing negative doesn't have the thing.

So, you accept vaccination but not tests? Yes, that makes perfect sense.

Anyone who still thinks this is about preventing spread of a virus - as opposed to social control and the introduction of a 'papers please' society - is really not paying attention anymore.
Yes, agree with what you’ve put there. This is the next step in the state sponsored bullying that started with demanding care workers get vaccinated.

For those saying ‘it won’t affect me’, well maybe it won’t this time around, but ‘thin end of the wedge’ describes it perfectly.

I’ve had both jabs, but find the notion of a two tier society absolutely abhorrent.
 

brad465

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Well, we know those who have had the vaccine can still get the thing. We know that those who have had the vaccine can still transmit the thing.

Presumably, if the tests are of any use whatsoever, we also know that someone testing negative doesn't have the thing.

So, you accept vaccination but not tests? Yes, that makes perfect sense.

Anyone who still thinks this is about preventing spread of a virus - as opposed to social control and the introduction of a 'papers please' society - is really not paying attention anymore.
What's interesting about the timing is the end of September is also when the emergency legislation is due for renewal. I don't know whether this decision comes under it, but it'll be interesting to see if any MPs try and force the issue to be dropped as a condition of voting for its renewal (I doubt the opposition, minus the Lib Dems perhaps, will be against the legislation unless cases have crashed down by this point).
 

Nicholas Lewis

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BoJo on his briefing pushing the need to get vaccinated and talking about other countries using vaccine passports for certain settings - might be warming us up for something?

Vallence starts off quite gloomy about cases and it risks but then shows how hospitalisations and mortality are significantly down on last wave so ends on a positive.

JVT reinforcing that vaccination of 18-30 year old needs to improve currently 3m without any dose. Clearly all pushing the line about what will happen if you don't get vaccinated.

Consensus from wise men is we will have to see how things stand in early September to know whether there will be issues going into autumn.
 

XAM2175

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As horrific as that is, we will *all* be affected by the introduction of a 'papers please' society, which is what this really is.
For people who don't look look and sound British it's been that way for years already.
 
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