Front line staff: are you worried about job security?

[LowLevel]

I honestly believe they'll be a large push for DOO. I think the Train Managers for TOCs such as CrossCountry have a fight on their hands.

If cuts are to be made I suspect now would be the ideal time especially in the light of low passenger numbers.

Maybe I'm over thinking it but I suspect not.

I think the InterCity train managers have less to worry about. West Coast in calcuations done a few years back actually came back as making a loss over 20 years if DOO was to be implemented. XC is an odd case though as it has tiny trains absolutely stuffed with staff on above average wages. A 4 car voyager with a driver, train manager, retail service manager and first class host is very expensive to operate.

 

[theironroad]

I think the InterCity train managers have less to worry about. West Coast in calcuations done a few years back actually came back as making a loss over 20 years if DOO was to be implemented. XC is an odd case though as it has tiny trains absolutely stuffed with staff on above average wages. A 4 car voyager with a driver, train manager, retail service manager and first class host is very expensive to operate.

And pre covid at least, tHose 4 staff were usually often outnumbered by people standing in one carriage let alone all those seated.

Out of interest, how many staff in total do a pendolino have or LNER azuma?

 

[Steve Laird]

Don't know if anyone can answer this but say there is to be cuts on the number of trains running down the east coast from say Edinburgh to Birmingham due to a longterm reduction in traveller numbers.

Whose timetable from the TOCs would be reduced, CrossCountry, LNER or Transpennine? How is that decision made

 

[DorkingMain]

I'm not frontline staff (I was a guard, then I moved to management and changed TOCs) but I think that fear is being felt at all levels. I'm still very low on the "food chain" but there is a definite feeling that it wouldn't take much of a change of direction for a lot of people not to have the role they currently have anymore.

 

[Steve Laird]

I think the InterCity train managers have less to worry about. West Coast in calcuations done a few years back actually came back as making a loss over 20 years if DOO was to be implemented. XC is an odd case though as it has tiny trains absolutely stuffed with staff on above average wages. A 4 car voyager with a driver, train manager, retail service manager and first class host is very expensive to operate.

First reduction maybe to combine the RSM and First Class Host role as it is done that way at the weekend just now.

 

[DorkingMain]

That doesn’t necessarily mean staff will be made redundant, but they may be redeployed to more visible (and potentially less desirable) roles standing in the ticket hall answering questions, showing people how to use ticket machines etc.

Operational grades are probably at the lowest risk, given the service relies heavily on overtime at the best of times, so even a significant reduction in services (eg to a permanent Saturday timetable) could probably be weathered by reducing RDW and natural attrition.

Agreed. Drivers, dispatchers and the like really shouldn't have much to worry about. There's been a chronic shortage in both grades for as long as I can remember.

Guards / conductors are more worried, where I am. We already have some degree of DOO working, and the current people running the DfT have openly expressed their desire to expand that. However, what the DfT wants and what the DfT can realistically achieve are two very different things.

I know on Southeastern high-speed, most of the station grades were merged together, meaning staff effectively shift between working different parts of the station (dispatching, gateline, ticket office, etc.). I wonder if there might be a long term aspiration to bring this model in elsewhere.

 

[yorkie]

Fully agree. The fact there's another thread elsewhere on the forum throwing round the suggestions that they could save money by closing ticket offices, going DOO more & cutting services hasn't done my anxiety any favours today. I like many give as much effort at work in a job I really enjoy, to read many flagrantly cast us aside isn't nice.

This is under discussion elsewhere on the forum in the Speculative Ideas section, e.g. How could the DfT cut the costs of providing rail services?

If we can avoid too much duplication that would be great, thanks

I would argue that the south and the metropolitan north are all now against Brexit now everyone has seen the reality.
Admittedly , on paper Brexit seemed a nice idea, but now we have all seen the consequences the vast majority see it for what it is. There are pockets of Brexit support in places like Mansfield, Crewe, Burnely etc, but overall I think a second vote would be 70 percent in favour of remain......
(Not that I think the result should be overturned by the way, as democracy is democracy, but I dont think it should be railroaded through in the way it is)

This belongs in General Discussion please

But hopefully numbers will pick up again soon and we can all be ok.

I certainly hope so! This thread explores the issues: Can public transport ever recover from COVID-19?

 

[8rwg]

Agreed. Drivers, dispatchers and the like really shouldn't have much to worry about. There's been a chronic shortage in both grades for as long as I can remember.

Whilst I see a lot of dispatch staff come and go, I always assumed driving roles were hard to come by and generally hard to get. Feels like most people I know who get into the railway get into it for that reason. Definitely something I am trying to work towards in the long term.

 

[DorkingMain]

Whilst I see a lot of dispatch staff come and go, I always assumed driving roles were hard to come by and generally hard to get. Feels like most people I know who get into the railway get into it for that reason. Definitely something I am trying to work towards in the long term.

Nearly every person in a dispatch role I've known is using it as a path to a different role - driver, guard, etc.

However that rapid turnover also means the rate of hiring is often huge.

 

[8rwg]

Nearly every person in a dispatch role I've known is using it as a path to a different role - driver, guard, etc.

However that rapid turnover also means the rate of hiring is often huge.

Aye true, but I feel once people get to driving they rarely leave. I was just saying I didn’t think there was a great deal of shortage for drivers.

 

[the sniper]

Aye true, but I feel once people get to driving they rarely leave. I was just saying I didn’t think there was a great deal of shortage for drivers.

Productive Drivers are expensive to acquire and often have long lead times, while you can lose Drivers very quickly and easily, through the likes of retirements, TOC or depot transfers, ill health, operating incidents, ect...

 

[DorkingMain]

Indeed. Changing TOCs is a big reason we lose a lot of drivers. People get the option of doing max 10-15 stops a day out of Euston / Paddington / St Pancras / Kings Cross, and metro DOO work just doesn't compare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I honestly believe they'll be a large push for DOO. I think the Train Managers for TOCs such as CrossCountry have a fight on their hands.

I agree DOO will be pushed, but I don't think it will primarily be an issue on IC TOCs, I'd be thinking more of regional and commuter TOCs that would be at risk of blanket moves to DOO - for instance I'd be amazed if it wasn't pushed on WMT (both for Birmingham local services and the WCML). Even if the guard loses door control on XC (which they only have through 10-bell anyway) they will still have a second member of staff. IC services need it from a customer services perspective (e.g. sorting out reservation arguments) quite apart from the safety angle. Though I suppose they could "think outside the box" and go for a more airline-style steward, i.e. one member of staff that has evacuation and revenue training but also works the trolley.

 

[LowLevel]

I agree DOO will be pushed, but I don't think it will primarily be an issue on IC TOCs, I'd be thinking more of regional and commuter TOCs that would be at risk of blanket moves to DOO - for instance I'd be amazed if it wasn't pushed on WMT (both for Birmingham local services and the WCML). Even if the guard loses door control on XC (which they only have through 10-bell anyway) they will still have a second member of staff.

Suburban services maybe. I suspect Stonehaven may ruffle a few comfort zones regarding more rural services with the total failure of the theoretical systems in place to alert the railway to a disaster, with a passer by phoning it in and a travelling member of staff turning up injured at a mechanical signalbox while they were still trying to work out what had happened.

With service frequencies on regional lines I think you're as well just keeping the on board crewing - it's not like you're paying for 12 guards an hour on a suburban service. I pay in well over my wages in fares collected most shifts even with the shift to e-tickets etc. That's without all the passenger assistance/general being there and dealing with any incidents.

 

[8rwg]

Indeed. Changing TOCs is a big reason we lose a lot of drivers. People get the option of doing max 10-15 stops a day out of Euston / Paddington / St Pancras / Kings Cross, and metro DOO work just doesn't compare.

As well DOO metro style stuff often have a much earlier and later, or 24hr timetable than intercity trains.

 

[Stigy]

I know it’s a bit different as they’re open access operator, but I saw through a connection on LinedIn that Grand Central trainee drivers have been made redundant. Shocking nonetheless considering what is entailed in trainee driver training. Not sure on any further details or how many have lost jobs. Apologies if this has been spoken about here already, I only scanned this thread.

 

[ST]

That's awful if true.

 

[Stigy]

That's awful if true.

It’s definitely true of at least one trainee as he had been furloughed and just been told he’s not going to return. It’s such a difficult and competitive job to get in the first place, to have the opportunity taken away after initial training (10 weeks for him) must be really hard to take.

 

[theironroad]

I know it’s a bit different as they’re open access operator, but I saw through a connection on LinedIn that Grand Central trainee drivers have been made redundant. Shocking nonetheless considering what is entailed in trainee driver training. Not sure on any further details or how many have lost jobs. Apologies if this has been spoken about here already, I only scanned this thread.

That's awful if true.

I think that's probably in specific relation to the cancelling of GC Blackpool services that should have commenced (being discussed in own thread). Qualified drivers as well as trainee's, TM and other staff are either being redundant or attempting to transfer within Arriva.

 

[ST]

It’s definitely true of at least one trainee as he had been furloughed and just been told he’s not going to return. It’s such a difficult and competitive job to get in the first place, to have the opportunity taken away after initial training (10 weeks for him) must be really hard to take.

Very sad. Let's hope anyone affected can be deployed within Arriva. Like you say Stigy, this will have been a dream and so tough to get into, people giving up other careers etc to be faced with this. Fingers crossed and best wishes to anyone affected and reading this.

 

[Steve Laird]

RMT sounding the war cry with their recent news release. The next 18 months is going to become messy with lots of stand offs. More important than ever to join your union and stand beside your colleagues. This Government doesn't care, sad and worrying times

 

[donpoku]

Is almost as if Covid has given this Govt a carte Blanche to push its agendas - DOO, Nationalisation, etc..

Oh how I wish we find a vaccine soon!

 

[8rwg]

RMT sounding the war cry with their recent news release. The next 18 months is going to become messy with lots of stand offs. More important than ever to join your union and stand beside your colleagues. This Government doesn't care, sad and worrying times

Yes, I saw the recent article with the quotes from Mick Cash. I am hoping it is just scar mongering on their part, although rationally, there is little to no reason to believe that. I believe we could be in for a hard time, but at least compared to other unions we are fairly strong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is almost as if Covid has given this Govt a carte Blanche to push its agendas - DOO, Nationalisation, etc..

Oh how I wish we find a vaccine soon!

Nationalisation of the railways is about the most popular public policy you could imagine - almost nobody other than people who profit from the present structure opposes it. It's very un-Tory, but it would be a definite vote grabber.

 

[Meerkat]

i only support nationalisation if the government use it as a temporary opportunity to finally sort out the railways and the unions. Otherwise I am against the state doing anything more than they absolutely must.

 

[theironroad]

RMT sounding the war cry with their recent news release. The next 18 months is going to become messy with lots of stand offs. More important than ever to join your union and stand beside your colleagues. This Government doesn't care, sad and worrying times

I don't think those press releases are particularly helpful to RMT members. No-one knows how any of this is panning out yet, there have been no announcements and all that screaming press releases do is make a lot of RMT members anxious and uncertain for the future. Why start worrying people now. Sure the time may come for robust words and action but that moment hasn't come.

 

[Need2]

i only support nationalisation if the government use it as a temporary opportunity to finally sort out the railways and the unions. Otherwise I am against the state doing anything more than they absolutely must.

How and Why do the unions need 'sorting out?'

 

[8rwg]

I don't think those press releases are particularly helpful to RMT members. No-one knows how any of this is panning out yet, there have been no announcements and all that screaming press releases do is make a lot of RMT members anxious and uncertain for the future. Why start worrying people now. Sure the time may come for robust words and action but that moment hasn't come.

Agreed.

 

[Meerkat]

How and Why do the unions need 'sorting out?'

Because they have far too much influence over the industry and it’s (lack of) advancement, whilst also pricing the industry out of competitiveness.

 

[Inthe4foot]

Because they have far too much influence over the industry and it’s (lack of) advancement, whilst also pricing the industry out of competitiveness.

fair enough the unions dig their heels in some times But they are the reason The railway is such a popular career Choice.
I Agree there’s a lot of problems with the railway and the political side but the positives of the unions massively out weigh the negatives