Front line staff: are you worried about job security?

[Steve Laird]

I don't think those press releases are particularly helpful to RMT members. No-one knows how any of this is panning out yet, there have been no announcements and all that screaming press releases do is make a lot of RMT members anxious and uncertain for the future. Why start worrying people now. Sure the time may come for robust words and action but that moment hasn't come.

Don't agree the Union have to set out their starting position from the beginning. Make it clear they'll fight for every job.

This Government doesn't care for anyone or anything, christ they'll even break international law if they want to.

Cuts announces at Grand Central today. Every job has to be fought for

 

[Inthe4foot]

Don't agree the Union have to set out their starting position from the beginning. Make it clear they'll fight for every job.

This Government doesn't care for anyone or anything, christ they'll even break international law if they want to.

Cuts announces at Grand Central today. Every job has to be fought for

couldn't agree more!!!!

 

[theironroad]

Don't agree the Union have to set out their starting position from the beginning. Make it clear they'll fight for every job.

This Government doesn't care for anyone or anything, christ they'll even break international law if they want to.

Cuts announces at Grand Central today. Every job has to be fought for

Of course it's important to fight job cuts when they are announced.

However, screaming about job cuts and defending jobs over which no announcement had been made just unsettles people whether that's on here or people scaring people in mess rooms. maybe everyone should be on a permanent war footing and worrying for their whole career and life just in case their job is cut in give years time.
.

AFAIK, the GC cuts you've mentioned are the first among tocs since covid started and as an OA operation, they've always been riskier places than franchised TOCs.

Btw, do you have a link or pointrr to the GA jib cuts? Thanks.

 

[WestRiding]

This whole saga will catch up with every grade before long. The RMT has sealed the fate of guards, because they are not doing ticket checks and selling tickets. The TOCs will use this as an example to get rid of guards. Example, i caught the Direct Moorthorpe to York train via Baghill, (surprisingley well used) the ticket machine was out of order, so myself and the other 7 people who went to York, went for free. This is happening across the network. That, along with the actual railway industry actively encouraging people not to travel. Its rediculous. This will in the longer term will lead to reduced services, which means lack of investment. The network will decay, and eventually it will effect pway, s&t, signallers. The stupidity needs to stop.

 

[Steve Laird]

Of course it's important to fight job cuts when they are announced.

However, screaming about job cuts and defending jobs over which no announcement had been made just unsettles people whether that's on here or people scaring people in mess rooms. maybe everyone should be on a permanent war footing and worrying for their whole career and life just in case their job is cut in give years time.
.

AFAIK, the GC cuts you've mentioned are the first among tocs since covid started and as an OA operation, they've always been riskier places than franchised TOCs.

Btw, do you have a link or pointrr to the GA jib cuts? Thanks.

I totally understand your view and appreciate it. My feeling though is this Government is stumbling from one disaster to the next. I would prefer the Union to be clear that any threats to cut staff will result in an almighty fight. My hope is they just don't have the stomach for it just now.

GC: from a OA the risks are always higher true but still painful to see/hear about. Just the RMT website

 

[theironroad]

I totally understand your view and appreciate it. My feeling though is this Government is stumbling from one disaster to the next. I would prefer the Union to be clear that any threats to cut staff will result in an almighty fight. My hope is they just don't have the stomach for it just now.

GC: from a OA the risks are always higher true but still painful to see/hear about. Just the RMT website

Yeah, just looked at RMT press release about the 51 job cuts at GC. Totally agree that it is painful and hopefully they can get other positions soon.

 

[Steve Laird]

This whole saga will catch up with every grade before long. The RMT has sealed the fate of guards, because they are not doing ticket checks and selling tickets. The TOCs will use this as an example to get rid of guards. Example, i caught the Direct Moorthorpe to York train via Baghill, (surprisingley well used) the ticket machine was out of order, so myself and the other 7 people who went to York, went for free. This is happening across the network. That, along with the actual railway industry actively encouraging people not to travel. Its rediculous. This will in the longer term will lead to reduced services, which means lack of investment. The network will decay, and eventually it will effect pway, s&t, signallers. The stupidity needs to stop.

Tain managers are doing safety checks.

In regards to Tickets this role was stopped for safety reason and is restarting soon. Ticket selling isn't a main function of a TM, well certainly not for CrossCountry. Unsure of other TOCs

 

[WestRiding]

Tain managers are doing safety checks.

In regards to Tickets this role was stopped for safety reason and is restarting soon. Ticket selling isn't a main function of a TM, well certainly not for CrossCountry. Unsure of other TOCs

Cant speak for XC but it certainly isn't helping Northerns battle.

 

[Meerkat]

fair enough the unions dig their heels in some times But they are the reason The railway is such a popular career Choice.
I Agree there’s a lot of problems with the railway and the political side but the positives of the unions massively out weigh the negatives

You think people want to be train drivers because of the union, rather than getting to drive a train?

 

[Steve Laird]

Cant speak for XC but it certainly isn't helping Northerns battle.

I would think any argument that during a pandemic because TMs weren't doing tickets/checks whilst the trains were 15% full means they aren't needed is a awful argument though with this Government I wouldn't be surprised.

Are the Northern TM/Guards worried?

 

[Meerkat]

Every job has to be fought for

That’s the kind of argument that makes people roll their eyes up!
You think every job should be ‘fought for’ even if that job turns out to be no longer necessary and even if doing so could result in taking a large chunk of the industry down the pan?

 

[Steve Laird]

That’s the kind of argument that makes people roll their eyes up!
You think every job should be ‘fought for’ even if that job turns out to be no longer necessary and even if doing so could result in taking a large chunk of the industry down the pan?

Yes I do, I will fight and stand up for every working class person, especially when you see the worst transport secretary in history walks into a 100k part time job!

But of course the ticket seller not being made redundant takes a huge chunk of an industry down not the greed and mismanagement of Politicians and their pals.

 

[WestRiding]

I would think any argument that during a pandemic because TMs weren't doing tickets/checks whilst the trains were 15% full means they aren't needed is a awful argument though with this Government I wouldn't be surprised.

Are the Northern TM/Guards worried?

Slightly off topic, is a TM basically a guard?

 

[Steve Laird]

Yes basically TMs/Guards are safety critical i.e trains can't run without them. CrossCountry trains all run with TMs, I believe LNER and Transpennine are the same. I think to remove them the train drivers would need to agree.

Scotrail have a mixture of Guards/TMs and ticket inspectors depending on the route

 

[WestRiding]

Yes basically TMs/Guards are safety critical i.e trains can't run without them. CrossCountry trains all run with TMs, I believe LNER and Transpennine are the same. I think to remove them the train drivers would need to agree.

Scotrail have a mixture of Guards/TMs and ticket inspectors depending on the route

Ah, so its not like some unofficial 'im better than thou' term. Cheers, genuinely didn't know.

 

[tiptoptaff]

The RMT are over zealous and do more harm than good to their members. You typify that attitude. Many of my back of the train colleagues have lost faith in them.

They've gone off all guns blazing in their usual belligerent style, well before they need to. And they've said absolutely nothing constructive. Fighting for every job isn't always the best option, sometimes it just isn't a feasible outcome. A good set of reps will fight for the best possible outcome, there's no point fighting to save 10 jobs if it causes the collapse of the company and 1000people lose out.

Fortunately, apart from their politics, ASLEF are fairly sensible with this sort of thing. Far more pragmatic than RMT.

To expand, RMTs negotiation style is very much "give us everything we want or we will go on strike immediately and forever" which is a pretty useless tactic after the first time. Especially as the TOCs can use their managers to cover it AND perpetual strikes, as seen on Southern DOO disputes eventually achieved nothing but turning public opinion against RMT

 

[Inthe4foot]

You think people want to be train drivers because of the union, rather than getting to drive a train?

I didn’t say because of the union, the union have made it an attractive job if that makes sense -
Just Think back in the day when pay and conditions weren‘t very good no where near the amount of applicants applied. I believe (and before you get on you high horse it’s my opinion) that the unions have built up a great amount of conditions and pay over the years in every grade not just driver. you compare that to outside the railway, the railway wins every time. Hence why it’s such a popular career. not only that they defend And help employees in times of need.

I’m not saying it a perfect system though

 

[Steve Laird]

The RMT are over zealous and do more harm than good to their members. You typify that attitude. Many of my back of the train colleagues have lost faith in them.

They've gone off all guns blazing in their usual belligerent style, well before they need to. And they've said absolutely nothing constructive. Fighting for every job isn't always the best option, sometimes it just isn't a feasible outcome. A good set of reps will fight for the best possible outcome, there's no point fighting to save 10 jobs if it causes the collapse of the company and 1000people lose out.

Fortunately, apart from their politics, ASLEF are fairly sensible with this sort of thing. Far more pragmatic than RMT.

To expand, RMTs negotiation style is very much "give us everything we want or we will go on strike immediately and forever" which is a pretty useless tactic after the first time. Especially as the TOCs can use their managers to cover it AND perpetual strikes, as seen on Southern DOO disputes eventually achieved nothing but turning public opinion against RMT

"You typify that attitude" lovely response.

Tell me a time when fighting for 10 jobs have cost the jobs of 1000s and taking down a company I'll wait doubt you can give me one example

This country wastes billion of pounds, example the millions spent on a World Beating Test and Trace app but jeez don't fight for the working class

 

[8rwg]

Don't agree the Union have to set out their starting position from the beginning. Make it clear they'll fight for every job.

This Government doesn't care for anyone or anything, christ they'll even break international law if they want to.

Cuts announces at Grand Central today. Every job has to be fought for

I agree with what you’re saying. I think their intention was to make union members feel more secure and protected - but through some poor wording it perhaps had the opposite effect. Although tbh I think most union members don’t read every statement they put out so.

Very sad to see other commenters here downplaying or looking down upon trade unionists too.

 

[Steve Laird]

I agree with what you’re saying. I think their intention was to make union members feel more secure and protected - but through some poor wording it perhaps had the opposite effect. Although tbh I think most union members don’t read every statement they put out so.

I understand your point and others views about the RMT I just look at it differently. I suppose I get annoyed when I read about the amount spent and wasted at Government level, 100s of millions then people turn around and say look at how much the railway costs.

 

[8rwg]

I understand your point and others views about the RMT I just look at it differently. I suppose I get annoyed when I read about the amount spent and wasted at Government level, 100s of millions then people turn around and say look at how much the railway costs.

Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m very pro union. I think RMT does a good job of protecting its members when you compare them to say Unite or Unison and like you mentioned, was a drawing point for me wanting to join the railway.

I was just on about that recent statement there. Overall they could of course improve some bits but overall I’m glad I have it.

I do get where the others are coming from but at the end of the day you can’t please everyone and while I’m sure many union members would like to see a railway work for everyone - a trade unions position is to ultimately protect its members.

 

[Steve Laird]

Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m very pro union. I think RMT does a good job of protecting its members when you compare them to say Unite or Unison and like you mentioned, was a drawing point for me wanting to join the railway.

I was just on about that recent statement there. Overall they could of course improve some bits but overall I’m glad I have it.

I do get where the others are coming from but at the end of the day you can’t please everyone and while I’m sure many union members would like to see a railway work for everyone - a trade unions position is to ultimately protect its members.

The City of Edinburgh Council is a great example of were unions and organisations can work together. I was reading that CEC have a no redundancy policy meaning unions can protect their members whilst supporting reorganisation were required.

For example all staff are supported to retrain, are redeployed or natural wastage takes care of redundant roles. This can happen on the railway to and elsewhere. It is to easy for wealthy individuals at the top just to say cut staff.

As I've said in previous posts this country wastes billions of pounds at Government level, my god has much did the Williams report cost! Nick Grayling 100k a year! Yet frontline staff are worried, its just not right

 

[the sniper]

They've gone off all guns blazing in their usual belligerent style, well before they need to. And they've said absolutely nothing constructive. Fighting for every job isn't always the best option, sometimes it just isn't a feasible outcome. A good set of reps will fight for the best possible outcome, there's no point fighting to save 10 jobs if it causes the collapse of the company and 1000people lose out.

If you were in the booking office, revenue, cleaning or maintenance, why would you pay your subs if the RMT weren't intending to fight for every job?

Fortunately, apart from their politics, ASLEF are fairly sensible with this sort of thing. Far more pragmatic than RMT.

ASLEF also have a far easier task and far more options/power. ASLEF don't make as much noise as the RMT because they can rely upon the fear of their bite, there's no need to bark.

 

[dk1]

ASLEF also have a far easier task and far more options/power. ASLEF don't make as much noise as the RMT because they can rely upon the fear of their bite, there's no need to bark.

Absolutely spot on with that response.

 

[Steve Laird]

From the Dft statement earlier:

"The new contracts allow us to make an early start on key reforms, including requiring operators to co-ordinate better with each other and driving down the railways’ excessive capital costs."

Driving down excessive capital costs, the first thing I think of us staff cuts across the board.

 

[Meerkat]

From the Dft statement earlier:

"The new contracts allow us to make an early start on key reforms, including requiring operators to co-ordinate better with each other and driving down the railways’ excessive capital costs."

Driving down excessive capital costs, the first thing I think of us staff cuts across the board.

Staff aren’t capital

 

[Steve Laird]

Staff aren’t capital

Excessive capital cost, as in overspend. One of the largest spend would be staff salaries.

I doubt they'd release a statement directly referring to staffing cost.

Maybe I'm wrong but that is how I read it

 

[Meerkat]

Excessive capital cost, as in overspend. One of the largest spend would be staff salaries.

I doubt they'd release a statement directly referring to staffing cost.

Maybe I'm wrong but that is how I read it

Staff aren’t a capital cost, they are an operating cost.
In this instance I wouldn’t be totally sure if the DfT mean the cost of building and buying stuff or the cost of borrowing the money, possibly NRs massive debt???

 

[Steve Laird]

Staff aren’t a capital cost, they are an operating cost.
In this instance I wouldn’t be totally sure if the DfT mean the cost of building and buying stuff or the cost of borrowing the money, possibly NRs massive debt???

Ah thanks for explaining, appreciated

 

[Meerkat]

Ah thanks for explaining, appreciated

No worries, BUT....it was the DfT so who knows what they really meant and it would be very odd for the government not to want to reduce operating costs (they might not want to start that fight yet.....)