Gatwick Express at Clapham Junction??

[BluePenguin]

On my way back to Southampton tonight whilst I was waiting for my delayed train to arrive, I looked over to see a Gatwick Express sat still a few platforms across with people getting off (not very express)

Well, I never thought I would see the day that a Gatwick Express train actually stopped at Clapham Junction as they usually speed straight through!

Does anyone know how or why it stopped? I am curious to find out and know why. The time was 20:50.

 

[MCR247]

I imagine it was just a standard GTR Southern service that is booked to use the 387/2s. A daily occurance AFAIK

 

[yorkie]

On my way back to Southampton tonight whilst I was waiting for my delayed train to arrive, I looked over to see a Gatwick Express sat still a few platforms across with people getting off (not very express)

Well, I never thought I would see the day that a Gatwick Express train actually stopped at Clapham Junction as they usually speed straight through!

Does anyone know how or why it stopped? I am curious to find out and know why. The time was 20:50.

GTR operate all trains on the London to Brighton route and it's often the case that they use their red "Gatwick Express" branded units on trains which are supposed to be branded "Southern" and vice-versa.

You are right that these trains are "not very express" and journey times on this route are slower than they were decades ago. In fact, the company's fastest trains from Brighton to Gatwick are often the ones branded "Southern"; the ones branded "Express" are typically slower as they have extended dwell times at the airport, for tourists. See: http://www.fastjp.com/#journeys?orig=BTN&dest=VIC&odate=20170725&otime=1100&maxres=17&maxch=0

The company also charges higher fares from Gatwick to London, than from Brighton to London.

They also have been known to advertise trains as calling at Gatwick, which then go non-stop through Gatwick.

It's all utterly bizarre. But absolutely normal!

The days of Gatwick Express being a separate train company ended as long ago as 2008 (this amusing video of the franchise handover dated June 2008 is still on Youtube)

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I managed to get on the 18:30 from Victoria to Brighton formed of 3 red Gatwick Express units. This train stops at Clapham Junction, East Croydon and then Haywards Heath (NB missing out Gatwick Airport).

This got me thinking. Are the other advertised services that don’t actually stop at the station or route on the branding? The internal PA was clear it was a Gatwick Express train, and equally clear the train didn’t stop at Gatwick.

My obvious thought is Thameslink, where a number of services do not, yet, go through the Thameslink ore, but are there any others?

 

[yorkie]

I managed to get on the 18:30 from Victoria to Brighton formed of 3 red Gatwick Express units. This train stops at Clapham Junction, East Croydon and then Haywards Heath (NB missing out Gatwick Airport).

This got me thinking. Are the other advertised services that don’t actually stop at the station or route on the branding? The internal PA was clear it was a Gatwick Express train, and equally clear the train didn’t stop at Gatwick.

There is nothing quite as comparable as this.

My obvious thought is Thameslink, where a number of services do not, yet, go through the Thameslink ore, but are there any others?

Yes GTR brand some of their services which operate entirely on the Southern network as Thameslink despite not going through the core, but that isn't quite on the same level as their Gatwick confusion.

 

[causton]

I managed to get on the 18:30 from Victoria to Brighton formed of 3 red Gatwick Express units. This train stops at Clapham Junction, East Croydon and then Haywards Heath (NB missing out Gatwick Airport).

This got me thinking. Are the other advertised services that don’t actually stop at the station or route on the branding? The internal PA was clear it was a Gatwick Express train, and equally clear the train didn’t stop at Gatwick.

My obvious thought is Thameslink, where a number of services do not, yet, go through the Thameslink ore, but are there any others?

Seeing a train described as West Midlands Trains going from London to Tring, for example...

Arriva Trains Wales run trains solely in England, e.g. the 0627 Crewe - Manchester Picc.

Maybe Transpennine Express running services between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Manchester, not really cross-Pennine?

 

[GW43125]

Ahh the pigs, reminds me of the last "Gatwick Express" 442 diagram, fast London Bridge-East Croydon, then the express kicks in straight through Gatwick to Three bridges, before morphing into an all stations to Brighton! Funny "express"

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Seeing a train described as West Midlands Trains going from London to Tring, for example...

Arriva Trains Wales run trains solely in England, e.g. the 0627 Crewe - Manchester Picc.

Maybe Transpennine Express running services between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Manchester, not really cross-Pennine?

Yes - I like these. Does anyone know if the 18:30 issue is a regular one? Southern is so random these days that it might just have been a one off.

 

[Bedpan]

The Thameslink situation is a bit different though as the only reason that some running north from Brighton terminate at London Bridge is that they can't get into the High Level side and then run beyond and into the core.

 

[Starmill]

The Thameslink situation is a bit different though as the only reason that some running north from Brighton terminate at London Bridge is that they can't get into the High Level side and then run beyond and into the core.

There have been a great many green and red trains used on "Thameslink" routes in the past. Red trains have been used on the likes of an Eastbourne to Brighton stopping service or stopping services to London Victoria via Redhill. Both green and white trains have been used on non-stop trains from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria.

 

[BzRail]

Yes - I like these. Does anyone know if the 18:30 issue is a regular one? Southern is so random these days that it might just have been a one off.

Yes it is regular, I often use or see it on my commute home. It was usually a 442 before the 387/2s. I have not seen a green 377 used on the 18:30 in the last year, but that doesn't mean it never happens. Station annoucements at Victoria normally say it is a Southern service, but on-board it tends to vary.

Some on-board staff make it very clear over the PA, e.g. "I know it's a red train, and it has Gatwick Express written on the outside but, IT DOES NOT STOP AT GATWICK AIRPORT"

 

[jopsuk]

This got me thinking. Are the other advertised services that don’t actually stop at the station or route on the branding?

The Greater Anglia Class 379 fleet has Stansted Express branding on the outside and and in, and some on the wifi too. The units are used on Liverpool Street to Cambridge services that do not go to Stansted Airport. They're not used for the Cambridge-Stansted local service, so in fact at Cambridge if you want a train to Stansted Airport the ones branded "Stansted Express" are not the right trains.

 

[Ianno87]

Maybe Transpennine Express running services between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Manchester, not really cross-Pennine?

Manchester and Preston sit on opposite sides of Winter Hill, which is part of the West Pennine Moors. So, yes there are.

 

[Bishopstone]

In the space of a year or less, the 17.57 London Bridge-Brighton (M-F), which doesn't stop at Gatwick Airport, has been diagrammed to use:

i) (Gatwick) Express branded 442s
ii) Southern branded 377s
iii) Thameslink branded 700s, and this train is now officially a Thameslink service

 

[jopsuk]

Wouldn't it be more logical to use the 379's which are branded as Stansted Express and use the 317's to work all Cambridge to Liverpool Street services I'd like that

The additional 10 379s were , with the idea of running 12 car Stansed Express having died before they were actually ordered, very much procured to run LST-CBG (and beyond) services- with three peak direction 12 car services each morning and evening in particular.

The current Cambridge-Stansted service started up as an off-peak only service using a 317 that would otherwise be sat in the sidings at Cambridge between peaks, before stock transfers and diagramming allowed it to run all day and all week. But using a 317, as it's a "less important" service and most non-enthusiast passengers do like the air conditioning, plug sockets and wifi of the 379s.

Of course both the LST-CBG and CBG-SSD will, in the near future, be operated entirely using class 720/5

 

[700007]

All the King's Lynn workings to/from London Liverpool Street are also made of 379s I believe.

 

[TheAdelante]

I used to often see 442s call at Clapham on their way to Brighton.

 

[wls1]

All the King's Lynn workings to/from London Liverpool Street are also made of 379s I believe.

Except the one that arrives at 0725 and departs at 1907. This is an 8 car 317.

 

[yorkie]

I used to often see 442s call at Clapham on their way to Brighton.

But these were not branded "Gatwick Express" except in the very early days at Southern. It soon became apparent that Southern (and latterly GTR) were going to be using them a lot on services that were not on their Gatwick Express route and which did not always call at Gatwick, and so fairly early on the "Gatwick" branding was - very sensibly - removed, so the trains simply had "Express" written on the sides.

They were regularly used on Brighton Express services branded "Southern" that called at Clapham Junction but not Gatwick. I don't see any issue with that, as they did not have Gatwick written on them.

However the difference now is that the company's red trains do have the word "Gatwick" all over their units that they normally allocate to their GX branded route, however they regularly use them on trains that do not all at Gatwick. The same mistakes are being repeated!

 

[TCDD]

Yes - I like these. Does anyone know if the 18:30 issue is a regular one? Southern is so random these days that it might just have been a one off.

Happened when I was on this same train a month or so ago!

 

[yorkie]

It's been a regular thing for at least 14 months:
The most confusing service on the network - GTR's 18.30 Victoria-Brighton

This evening I travelled from Victoria to Clapham Junction on the 18.30 Victoria-Brighton - nothing odd about it you would think. However, the train, which is marketed as a 'Southern' service is formed of Class 387/2 (Gatwick Express tomato liveried) stock, and the screens at Victoria mention that it does not call at Gatwick Airport.

Unfortunately, the on board screens and announcements think otherwise. The on-board displays listed Gatwick Airport as one of the stops, and it was even announced before departure as being the Gatwick Airport service - in various so different languages. I can imagine a few foreigners heading for their flights home ending up being overcarried. As the train left Clapham Junction, I noticd the display screen on the unit also showed it as stopping at Gatwick Airport.

This whole situation has probably come about by several franchises being merged to form GTR, but the firm attempting to run them independently in some ways, but not in others. It's hardly surprising the poor passenger is confused!

I'd love it if @AlterEgo could do a (perhaps tounge-in-cheek) trip report? I would even be prepared to pay to see that...

 

[A Challenge]

That link produces an serror - do you mean https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...network-gtrs-18-30-victoria-brighton.136901/?

 

[nw1]

Of course both the LST-CBG and CBG-SSD will, in the near future, be operated entirely using class 720/5

Why are they replacing the 379s incidentally, they're not exactly old?
Seems to be the case for other examples of the early-21st-century Electrostar/Desiro generation, apparently the 360s are leaving East Anglia too.
I can see Thameslink needs new trains as it's expanding significantly and the existing types might not be cleared to cross London, but why the lines out of Liverpool Street?

Some sort of cascade allowing the 360s, 379s etc to replace older types like 317s and 321s elsewhere? If so, why not just replace the 317s/321s directly and leave the 360s and 379s as they are and where they are?

 

[methethpropbut]

"Gatwick Express" and "Stansted Express" - so Express, they tear right through Gatwick and Stansted (Mountfitchet...) without stopping!

 

[swt_passenger]

Why are they replacing the 379s incidentally, they're not exactly old?

Simply because the incoming franchisee discovered a whole fleet replacement made more sense than numerous small sub-fleets. It's similar to SWR replacing new units (707s) and recently modified units (458/5s), as well as ye olde 455/456.

 

[jopsuk]

Why are they replacing the 379s incidentally, they're not exactly old?
Seems to be the case for other examples of the early-21st-century Electrostar/Desiro generation, apparently the 360s are leaving East Anglia too.
I can see Thameslink needs new trains as it's expanding significantly and the existing types might not be cleared to cross London, but why the lines out of Liverpool Street?

Some sort of cascade allowing the 360s, 379s etc to replace older types like 317s and 321s elsewhere? If so, why not just replace the 317s/321s directly and leave the 360s and 379s as they are and where they are?

There's a thread in the Rolling Stock forum on the GA stock, but it essentially it means taking current fleet of six different classes of EMU and replacing with just two, with Norwich and Stansted each getting a small fleet of 240m long express units of one class, two different interiors- whilst everything else gets a single class, mainly 120m long units with a small number of 240m ones.

The franchise bidders did not have any duty to care about what happens to the stock their proposals displaced.