George Monbiot and a SRN Coach System

[HSTEd]

Well, I am actually a fan of George Monbiot to a much greater degree than most environmentalists because of his not being anti nuclaer power - and I stumbled across a post on his blog from about ten years ago.

http://www.monbiot.com/2006/12/05/life-coaching/

Essentially he refers to the work of a transport economist that suggests a dedicated national network of coach routes that only ever runs on the Strategic Road Network (motorways, major dual carriageways etc) and does not bother running into town or city centres, instead connecting to local public transport at 'coachways' positioned at motorway junctions or similar junctures.

The idea being that there is no need to waste coaches crawling in and out of city centres, and allowing rapid end to end journeys since each person only ever travels in or out of the urban areas at the ends of their personal journey.

Also points out that coaches are sufficiently small load units that you can easily have turn-up-and-go frequencies on a much larger number of routes.

Seems an interesting idea to make more efficient use of motorway capacity, anyone ever given it any thought or know of any bigger scale studies of it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, there's MK Coachway which seems to do reasonable business. A new one was also recently built at High Wycombe.

 

[Wirewiper]

Stagecoach South West's "Falcon" coach service between Plymouth and Bristol operates something like this.

It serves Plymouth Coach Station in the City Centre, and also Bristol's main City Centre bus and coach station. However its Exeter stops are at Sowton and Honiton Road, very close to Park & Ride sites, just a short distance off the M5 as it passes to the east of Exeter - and nowhere near the City Centre. Similarly the Taunton and Bridgwater stops are close to junctions with the M5 and not in the town centres. The coach also stops at several locations like Drumbridges roundabout, where it pulls off the A38, serves a bus stop on the roundabout and goes straight back onto the A38. Drumbridges may appear to be in the middle of nowhere, but there are bus connections to nearby Newton Abbot, Heathfield and Bovey Tracey and passengers can arrange to be picked up there - as most people now carry mobile phones it is easy for them to call and be met off the coach by a friend or family member, or even a local taxi company.

Some National Express stops work in this way too - for years coaches have not fought their way into the centre of Reading and out again, but have served stops just off the M4 - until last year this was at Calcot, just off Junction 12, but now they call at the Mereoak Park & Ride site on the A33 just to the south of Junction 11, from where there are regular buses into the Town Centre.

 

[fowler9]

Well, I am actually a fan of George Monbiot to a much greater degree than most environmentalists because of his not being anti nuclaer power - and I stumbled across a post on his blog from about ten years ago.

http://www.monbiot.com/2006/12/05/life-coaching/

Essentially he refers to the work of a transport economist that suggests a dedicated national network of coach routes that only ever runs on the Strategic Road Network (motorways, major dual carriageways etc) and does not bother running into town or city centres, instead connecting to local public transport at 'coachways' positioned at motorway junctions or similar junctures.

The idea being that there is no need to waste coaches crawling in and out of city centres, and allowing rapid end to end journeys since each person only ever travels in or out of the urban areas at the ends of their personal journey.

Also points out that coaches are sufficiently small load units that you can easily have turn-up-and-go frequencies on a much larger number of routes.

Seems an interesting idea to make more efficient use of motorway capacity, anyone ever given it any thought or know of any bigger scale studies of it?

Sounds like a really good idea. Sadly in Liverpool they have recently closed the coach station meaning loads of coach services have to crawl even further through the town centre to Liverpool One. I guess the council are making money off the sale of the land of the coach station to build more student accommodation. That is a guess on my part.

 

[telstarbox]

London to Manchester:
Train takes just over 2 hours
Coach takes at least 4 hours 30 minutes during the daytime (Megabus non-stop).

Let's assume the new coachways are at Brent Cross tube (start of the M1) and Manchester Airport (just off the M56).

The end to end journey would be:
Tube from Central London to Brent Cross - 20 minutes
Allow 10 minutes connection time
Coach from Brent Cross to Manchester Airport - 3 hours assuming a constant 62mph
Allow 10 minutes connection time
Train to Manchester Piccadilly - 15 minutes

That's nearly 4 hours which isn't much better than the fastest coach now, plus you have to buy three separate fares to cover the journey. The real problem is that coaches aren't time competitive with trains over the same city pair so they are only useful if a) there is a cost-sensitive market or b) there isn't a direct rail connection e.g. the Stagecoach X5.

 

[Temple Meads]

for years coaches have not fought their way into the centre of Reading and out again, but have served stops just off the M4 - until last year this was at Calcot, just off Junction 12, but now they call at the Mereoak Park & Ride site on the A33 just to the south of Junction 11, from where there are regular buses into the Town Centre.

Overnight services have returned to serving Calcot instead of Mereoak P&R.

 

[HSTEd]

London to Manchester:
Train takes just over 2 hours
Coach takes at least 4 hours 30 minutes during the daytime (Megabus non-stop).

Let's assume the new coachways are at Brent Cross tube (start of the M1) and Manchester Airport (just off the M56).

The end to end journey would be:
Tube from Central London to Brent Cross - 20 minutes
Allow 10 minutes connection time
Coach from Brent Cross to Manchester Airport - 3 hours assuming a constant 62mph
Allow 10 minutes connection time
Train to Manchester Piccadilly - 15 minutes

That's nearly 4 hours which isn't much better than the fastest coach now, plus you have to buy three separate fares to cover the journey. The real problem is that coaches aren't time competitive with trains over the same city pair so they are only useful if a) there is a cost-sensitive market or b) there isn't a direct rail connection e.g. the Stagecoach X5.

A large portion fo the population of London doesn't actually live near Central London however. The population of Outer London is something like 5 million or more.
If you could build slip road coach stops on each and every railway line that crosses the M25 and run buses around it you might be able to shorten the pickeup mode, at which point the tube leg works against the rail option.

Rail is the best at serving a handful of high intensity routes between city-centre locations, coaches can do something rather different.

And if trains have PlusBus fares, why can't coaches?

Additionally there are a lot of potential journeys where the railway connection is simply awkward for historical reasons.
Leaving aside that in the case of the M25 you could create a public transport service in the orbital axis that avoids the crush loaded trips into the centre but still produces a reasonable end to end journey speed.

For example, how do you get from Watford to Barking by public transport? People drive similar journeys all the time.

 

[PeterC]

A great theory but it depends on having good public transport to the parkway from the whole area. In general you just have a link from the nearest town centre which runs only during the main shopping hours.

For travel to central London Lewknor is popular for the Oxford Tube and Tube, X90 and the airport services are well supported at Thornhill.

When commuting on the M25 some years ago my crayon box did come out for a network of local feeders based on hubs at the, then, three service areas with a circular route linking them.

 

[HSTEd]

A great theory but it depends on having good public transport to the parkway from the whole area. In general you just have a link from the nearest town centre which runs only during the main shopping hours.

Well if there was a coach up and down the motorway every few minutes, I imagine having an Optare Solo or two running shuttles most of the day would probably come out rather inexpensive.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Let's assume the new coachways are at Brent Cross tube (start of the M1) and Manchester Airport (just off the M56).

It can take 90 minutes to get from Victoria to Brent Cross on a bad day. Golders Green is such a popular coach stop for a reason. I think it makes lots of sense. I wouldn't advocate getting rid of Victoria- it's great for connections- but coaches would be more competitive if they didn't go into city centres so much. Stagecoach (originally but less so now) understood that with Megabus.

It does, admittedly, put off tourists though. You want to go to Sheffield, not a shopping centre 5 miles away.

 

[edwin_m]

I agree there is some market for this. It's unlikely to touch the train in the business market on most routes due to the city centre access being inconvenient and unreliable, but some scope for the more price-sensitive traveller who may not need to go into the centre.

 

[jammy36]

A great theory but it depends on having good public transport to the parkway from the whole area. In general you just have a link from the nearest town centre which runs only during the main shopping hours.

When the original article was written I think the above issue would prove a major stumbling block. I wonder now, with emerging technology, whether coaches of the type described in the article might work in combination with an Arriva Click style 'smart minibus' connection for the start/final leg?

 

[6Gman]

Sounds like a really good idea. Sadly in Liverpool they have recently closed the coach station meaning loads of coach services have to crawl even further through the town centre to Liverpool One. I guess the council are making money off the sale of the land of the coach station to build more student accommodation. That is a guess on my part.

Did the Council own the site?

 

[fowler9]

Did the Council own the site?

I don't know, it was a guess. I am guessing National Express didn't.

 

[GusB]

I would agree with coaches stopping at outlying areas in principle, but I would insist on a few things beforehand:
- a regular connection from the pick-up/drop-off point to the town/city centre, preferably at no additional charge (integrate the cost with the long-distance journey) and ensure that it covers all arrivals and departures, and not just those within peak periods
- shelter with heating, toilets and basic refreshment facilities (vending machine is fine)
- an information point along with a freephone for local taxis

It has been some time since I did anything resembling a long-distance coach journey. On that last occasion it was travelling from Inverness to Glasgow by Megabus. The first leg of the journey went fairly smoothly. It was a nice high-floor single-deck coach that was comfortable and warm. The only problem was that I had to change at Perth - my fellow Glasgow-bound passengers and I were dumped at a basic bus shelter at Broxden on a freezing cold (and snowy) night until the connecting bus (Olympian, ex-Hong Kong, packed full of students with loads of luggage...) eventually arrived. I had no way of finding out how long it would be before the connecting bus arrived. It was my first (and only) Megabus experience.

In the old days the connection would be made at Perth bus station. Granted, the facilities at Perth were limited, but in the event of significant delays I would at least have had the opportunity to wander to a nearby hostelry. Technology has obviously progressed significantly since then, and mobile phones weren't as sophisticated as they are now, but if I wanted to get information (or have a bit of a moan), there was always Camp Raymond, or one of the other inspectors at hand.

 

[philthetube]

London to Manchester:
Train takes just over 2 hours
Coach takes at least 4 hours 30 minutes during the daytime (Megabus non-stop).

Let's assume the new coachways are at Brent Cross tube (start of the M1) and Manchester Airport (just off the M56).

The end to end journey would be:
Tube from Central London to Brent Cross - 20 minutes
Allow 10 minutes connection time
Coach from Brent Cross to Manchester Airport - 3 hours assuming a constant 62mph
Allow 10 minutes connection time
Train to Manchester Piccadilly - 15 minutes

That's nearly 4 hours which isn't much better than the fastest coach now, plus you have to buy three separate fares to cover the journey. The real problem is that coaches aren't time competitive with trains over the same city pair so they are only useful if a) there is a cost-sensitive market or b) there isn't a direct rail connection e.g. the Stagecoach X5.

Exchange Brent cross for Golders Green and you can do this, amd expect 45 min delay at closing time ir using Brent Cross.

 

[PeterC]

I am not sure where you would put a coachway to be in reach of Brent Cross tube station by people with lugguage. The present bus station is in the shopping centre a fair walk on the other side of the A41 even without lugguage. Any possible development site is nearer the Midland Main Line than the Northern Line.

Of course if you are going the whole hog with proper feeder services then just kick Sheerings out of London Gateway and you have a ready made coach terminus with all the facilities that GusB would expect. (Not feasible but I do sometimes wonder if better use could be made of the Sheerings facility at London Gateway)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nat Ex operated Liverpool Coach Station, but it was probably leased as almost all business premises are.

 

[edwin_m]

I am not sure where you would put a coachway to be in reach of Brent Cross tube station by people with lugguage. The present bus station is in the shopping centre a fair walk on the other side of the A41 even without lugguage. Any possible development site is nearer the Midland Main Line than the Northern Line.

Of course if you are going the whole hog with proper feeder services then just kick Sheerings out of London Gateway and you have a ready made coach terminus with all the facilities that GusB would expect. (Not feasible but I do sometimes wonder if better use could be made of the Sheerings facility at London Gateway)

If it was to be rail served it would need a new station on the MML I think. Although it's adjacent it would involve slewing the tracks and possibly modifying a bridge or two.

I wonder about Luton Airport and Parkway - obviously not in the existing cramped forecourt but is there anywhere nearby that could connect to the station and the airport, perhaps with an intermediate stop on the proposed automated shuttle? Already quite well served by train and bus to various destinations.

Then again, we're almost getting into the territory of MegaBusPlus at East Midlands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure how worthwhile it would be for London because near enough everyone wants central London, and if you're on a coach in the first place that's a clear statement that journey time is not your priority, even with this concept, simply because mainline trains operate at more than twice the speed.

The concept works better for intermediate stops required by only some of the people on board.

 

[HSTEd]

If nothing else, facilities around the M25 and such would permit an orbital pseudo-tube line, which would partially flatten the traffic curve on the radial underground and rail system.

(Loads currently decrease from the centre outwards since most journeys involve going into the centre and out again, this way people in outer London would be heading outwards more often for orbital journeys).

Probably apply the same principle on other orbital motorways line the M60.

 

[padbus]

Whilst for many inter city journeys trains will be faster way to travel, coaches do have some significant advantages: you will get a seat and there will be space for your luggage. Finishing your journey to a city centre by having to haul your luggage on to a bus or train is the last thing you need.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst for many inter city journeys trains will be faster way to travel, coaches do have some significant advantages: you will get a seat and there will be space for your luggage.

To be fair, those two things are only because of operational decisions. Trains could satisfy those requirements if they had more luggage racks and compulsory reservations, both of which you will find in place on trains in France.

 

[PeterC]

Whilst for many inter city journeys trains will be faster way to travel, coaches do have some significant advantages: you will get a seat and there will be space for your luggage. Finishing your journey to a city centre by having to haul your luggage on to a bus or train is the last thing you need.

Every time I make an inter city rail journey I end up hauling my lugguage by bus or train to my final destination at one or both ends of the return journey. How many "inter city" journeys really are between city centres with no onward travel?

 

[fowler9]

there was always Camp Raymond, or one of the other inspectors at hand

Is Camp Raymond a person or a place?

 

[WideRanger]

I am not sure where you would put a coachway to be in reach of Brent Cross tube station by people with lugguage. The present bus station is in the shopping centre a fair walk on the other side of the A41 even without lugguage. Any possible development site is nearer the Midland Main Line than the Northern Line.

Of course if you are going the whole hog with proper feeder services then just kick Sheerings out of London Gateway and you have a ready made coach terminus with all the facilities that GusB would expect. (Not feasible but I do sometimes wonder if better use could be made of the Sheerings facility at London Gateway)

I have always thought Stonebridge Park would be a suitable location. A station on the Tube and Overground that's not especially congested, with easy access to both the M40 and M1, and a large piece of empty land just accross the road that is crying out for redevelopment.