Germany plans to restore TEE

[Stephen Lee]

GERMANY’s transport minister Mr Andreas Scheuer presented proposals to EU transport ministers on September 21 to create a new Trans Europe Express (TEE) network.

apart from potential routes I was wondering how will the specification of TEE 2.0 be?Is it like 1st class only like before?

 

[duesselmartin]

I doubt that Andreas Scheuer even knows what TEE was.
My hope is for a high speed integrated European system. But nothing really specific is in the media.

 

[popeter45]

my Personal suggestion for Day services would be as followed
Velaro's or Velaro Novo's with a 2 class layout of Buisness/First and a Premier Standard (e.g. 2 + 2 seating but with included meals?) and a proper Restaurant car

 

[JonathanP]

The full proposal with route maps and timings is here: https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/D...ernight-21-09-2020.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Before anyone starts dreaming, there is no suggestion anywhere that these trains should be 1st class only luxury trains. It is only about trying to improve multi-country direct connections.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The UK is not part of this, except by incidental connection at Brussels/Paris.
You'd think London would figure at least on a Munich-Brussels-London axis.
But then, we have left the EU.

 

[popeter45]

The UK is not part of this, except by incidental connection at Brussels/Paris.
You'd think London would figure at least on a Munich-Brussels-London axis.
But then, we have left the EU.

Adding London would increase complexity massively as would be mixing Schengen/non-Schengen on same train so would need either segregation of the train,a full unloading at Brussels/Lyon/Paris for Passport checks or Home office allowing Passport checks en-route after Last Schengen stop

 

[MarcVD]

People making this proposal are no fools and therefore understand pretty well that such a train network is not compatible with the way UK wants to manage its borders. Unless this is going to change, UK will be left out of any such proposals.

 

[StephenHunter]

The full proposal with route maps and timings is here: https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/D...ernight-21-09-2020.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Before anyone starts dreaming, there is no suggestion anywhere that these trains should be 1st class only luxury trains. It is only about trying to improve multi-country direct connections.

You can't run a luxury first class only service today; just isn't the demand for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having had a nose at the full proposal, the EN routes appear to be a rough recreation of what was there in the late 90s. Good to see, but not all that innovative!

Looking at the routes, hopefully we will see such names as Orient-Expreß back (EN 31/32 appears to be roughly the Direct-Orient-Express route). Sadly no Donauwalzer (Bruxelles-Koeln-Frankfurt-Muenchen) though.

Edit: Ah, it appears OeBB are running the Donauwalzer, albeit truncated to Duesseldorf.

 

[StephenHunter]

Having had a nose at the full proposal, the EN routes appear to be a rough recreation of what was there in the late 90s. Good to see, but not all that innovative!

Looking at the routes, hopefully we will see such names as Orient-Expreß back (EN 31/32 appears to be roughly the Direct-Orient-Express route). Sadly no Donauwalzer (Bruxelles-Koeln-Frankfurt-Muenchen) though.

Donauwalzer is currently covered by NJ424/425, the Bruxelles-Innsbruck section of the ex-Bruxelles Nightjet, but I believe that's going from the timetable change, possibly as the Austrians don't have enough rolling stock for it.

Direct-Orient-Express was the Simplon route rebranded; Orient-Expreß is the "original" more northern route. ÖBB are looking at a Paris-Wien sleeper from 2024, but their map seemed to suggest going via Metz, not Strasbourg.

 

[Stephen Lee]

my Personal suggestion for Day services would be as followed
Velaro's or Velaro Novo's with a 2 class layout of Buisness/First and a Premier Standard (e.g. 2 + 2 seating but with included meals?) and a proper Restaurant car

What about a Pendolino/Zefiro/Stadler EC250, or proper Intercity-Styled Multiple Units like Twindexx/FLIRT 200/KISS 200?

 

[superalbs]

What about a Pendolino/Zefiro/Stadler EC250, or proper Intercity-Styled Multiple Units like Twindexx/FLIRT 200/KISS 200?

Because nothing says 'luxury' more than a regional unit.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Because nothing says 'luxury' more than a regional unit.

i was just asking if proper IC-styled MUs can be used.....

 

[duesselmartin]

Because nothing says 'luxury' more than a regional unit.

I think interior fittings do a lot. Of course a 100mph unit would not be sufficient and for the distance proposed it would have to be a TGV ICE type unit.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

my Personal suggestion for Day services would be as followed
Velaro's or Velaro Novo's with a 2 class layout of Buisness/First and a Premier Standard (e.g. 2 + 2 seating but with included meals?) and a proper Restaurant car

Sounds a bit like Thalys services?

 

[peteb]

You can't run a luxury first class only service today; just isn't the demand

The full proposal with route maps and timings is here: https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/D...ernight-21-09-2020.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Before anyone starts dreaming, there is no suggestion anywhere that these trains should be 1st class only luxury trains. It is only about trying to improve multi-country direct connections.

This is a great idea. Pity we voted to leave the EU, they are clearly turning their back on us now with our smaller loading guage and access via a 30 mile drain. And some might say who can blame them after we have messed them about? Rather than rely on what may become an increasingly competitive channel tunnel route in terms of demand for seats if short haul air is cut, with price increases for Eurostar inevitable if demand rises, the UK should be investigating how it can improve passenger links from the north and east by sea to Netherlands and Denmark. I would prefer an additional day sailing Harwich to Hook (or wherever the ferry now docks) at say 1230, to get to Amsterdam by evening and doable from many places in UK north of London. Then use Amsterdam as the springboard for TEE to the rest of Europe.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Maybe guys if a Pendolino/Bombardier Zefiro/Stadler EC250 or Twindexx/Stadler Flirt 200/KISS 200 with Business/1st Class+Premier Standard Class will be a good idea?

 

[popeter45]

Maybe guys if a Pendolino/Bombardier Zefiro/Stadler EC250 or Twindexx/Stadler Flirt 200/KISS 200 with Business/1st Class+Premier Standard Class will be a good idea?

you need a 320-360km/h train for the length of many of the routes that would take HS lines in Spain, France and Germany and thats simply not possible with a twindexx, flirt or unit or even a EC250 or Pedolino

TGV's and Velaro's have a massive approved countries list so make more sense than a Zefiro

 

[StephenHunter]

There's not a huge number of high speed lines in Poland and the former Comecon countries; 300km/h would be fine there. Also, until a single unit for an entire route is available, you're going to be going loco-hauled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds a bit like Thalys services?

Thalys basically is part of the remnant of TEE, isn't it?

DB fell out with Thalys a while ago so they won't likely be involved, even though it might actually make sense.

 

[StephenHunter]

TEE was replaced by EuroCity services, but Thalys now 'control' that section of the old network along with the SNCB/NS IC Direct trains.

 

[30907]

I haven't quite got my head around the concept, but the proposal seems to be for a single train-pair (excuse the Germanism) on each route covering the maximum possible distance in a day.
That's strangely out of line with mainland European practice these days which is based on relatively frequent (2 hourly) services over the whole day, with trains berthing overnight at intermediate main stations (Hamburg-Budapest now has only one daily train, but a 2-hourly service is provided with sets originating at Barlin, Dresden, Prague, Brno and Bratislava (from memory which may be slightly out of date, but you get the idea); internal German and Polish routes work the same way.

The idea of defining the long-distance corridors is fine, but I can't see - for example - Stockholm-Bremen passengers being excited at an 0600-1400 trip just because the train needs to reach Paris for dinner!
Each of these routes serves a whole load of overlapping markets, and I doubt that many of the really long-distance flows have sufficient numbers to warrant running a train for them. Far better to run multiple trains, even if they make more stops.

(With night trains that's less easy, but they are on another thread!)

A minor but related point - the authors are focussed on end-to-end times at the expense of major intermediate stops: I noticed stops at Lyon St-Euxpery (airport) not Part-Dieu and Arth-Goldau not Zürich or Luzern for example.

 

[popeter45]

I haven't quite got my head around the concept, but the proposal seems to be for a single train-pair (excuse the Germanism) on each route covering the maximum possible distance in a day.
That's strangely out of line with mainland European practice these days which is based on relatively frequent (2 hourly) services over the whole day, with trains berthing overnight at intermediate main stations (Hamburg-Budapest now has only one daily train, but a 2-hourly service is provided with sets originating at Barlin, Dresden, Prague, Brno and Bratislava (from memory which may be slightly out of date, but you get the idea); internal German and Polish routes work the same way.

The idea of defining the long-distance corridors is fine, but I can't see - for example - Stockholm-Bremen passengers being excited at an 0600-1400 trip just because the train needs to reach Paris for dinner!
Each of these routes serves a whole load of overlapping markets, and I doubt that many of the really long-distance flows have sufficient numbers to warrant running a train for them. Far better to run multiple trains, even if they make more stops.

(With night trains that's less easy, but they are on another thread!)

A minor but related point - the authors are focussed on end-to-end times at the expense of major intermediate stops: I noticed stops at Lyon St-Euxpery (airport) not Part-Dieu and Arth-Goldau not Zürich or Luzern for example.

as many cities along the route already have regular services (e.g. Paris to cologne and cologne to Berlin and Berlin to Warsaw for TEE1/2) i can see these timetabled to fit in with them so e.g. a 2tph route would only run one for that hour and the TEE service would cover the other one

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Are trains in mainland Europe getting busier now in regard to post CV business.

 

[30907]

Are trains in mainland Europe getting busier now in regard to post CV business.

I believe so (see this month's MR too)

 

[Austriantrain]

Are trains in mainland Europe getting busier now in regard to post CV business.

Yes they are. I would estimate that here in Austria we are at about 70-80% of pre-Covid, in some cases much more.

However, revenues lag behind, because business and international tourist travel is still very slow, and those are the Money-earners.

as many cities along the route already have regular services (e.g. Paris to cologne and cologne to Berlin and Berlin to Warsaw for TEE1/2) i can see these timetabled to fit in with them so e.g. a 2tph route would only run one for that hour and the TEE service would cover the other one

The way to make this work is to integrate these trains as much as possible into national timetables. A Takt greatly helps with this.

Above all, when used domestically, same prices and rules should apply to TEE trains as for any other national long-distance services.

If this happens, these services will work. However, I see no chance of e.g. running a separate Stockholm - Paris daytime train with its own fares and not open to domestic travelers.

 

[popeter45]

The way to make this work is to integrate these trains as much as possible into national timetables. A Takt greatly helps with this.

Above all, when used domestically, same prices and rules should apply to TEE trains as for any other national long-distance services.

If this happens, these services will work. However, I see no chance of e.g. running a separate Stockholm - Paris daytime train with its own fares and not open to domestic travelers.

I 100% agree with you on that, this really needs to be a High speed Eurocity instead of a Orient express kind of service, the old style First class only TEE just wont work in the 21st centaury

 

[Austriantrain]

First steps, press conference of SNCF/DB/SBB/ÖBB today, 8 December 2020, together with transport ministers.

Statement about new Night train routes:

The parties plan to offer new night trains such as
December 2021: Vienna-Munich-Paris and Zurich-Amsterdam December 2023: Vienna/Berlin-Brussels/Paris
December 2024: Zürich-Barcelona

BMDV - Joint Statement to expand Night Train services in Europe

www.bmvi.de

__blob=publicationFile

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The UK is not part of this, except by incidental connection at Brussels/Paris.
You'd think London would figure at least on a Munich-Brussels-London axis.
But then, we have left the EU.

Not wanting to be that guy-but the EU isn't Europe. We're still part of Europe and decent rail connections to the Continent are surely still a plausible idea. The biggest trouble, I would expect is that we're not in Schengen as already said-but that's another coversation.

 

[Stephen Lee]

First steps, press conference of SNCF/DB/SBB/ÖBB today, 8 December 2020, together with transport ministers.

Statement about new Night train routes:

BMDV - Joint Statement to expand Night Train services in Europe

www.bmvi.de

__blob=publicationFile

What about Zurich-Rome??????