Go North West

[markymark2000]

At the risk of rapped knuckles I'm going to make a suggestion regarding Go North West routes 52 and 53. Has it been considered turning these into an "Outer Circle" route? A section of the 52 (Salford Shopping Centre SSC-Cheetham Hill) be linked to the 53 (Cheetham Hill-SSC). The clockwise route would be 53 and the anti-clock become 54. The short 52 journeys could be withdrawn leaving the 52 Failsworth- Trafford Centre intact. Evening 52A would run Failsworth- NM Hospital.
53/54 would be every 30 mins Mon-Sat daytime and hourly Eve's/Suns . Over to you!

A slight amendment under this scheme 52 would run from Failsworth- to Trafford Centre every 20 minutes NSu, and hourly Sunday alongside suggested 53/54.

Looking at how you have said it, you would be looking at very strange frequencies on common sections and overall, it would lead to quite big cuts in the level of service. Between Cheetham Hill and Pendleton (Salford Shopping Centre), you would be going from an even every 10 min service down to 5 buses per hour split over 2 routes on differing frequencies which often leads to 2 buses coming at the same time which then makes the '5bph' reduce.
Between Pendleton and Eccles, you are then proposing to half the frequency. That won't go down well with passengers.
I believe the 52 service as you propose it would have a PVR of 11 (down from current 13).

For a Circular of this length to work, you need a lot of padding and need buses to stop at key stops for a few minutes as timetabled. Based on the current timetable, extending the 53 from Pendleton to Cheetham Hill would take 21 minutes and the service only has 23 minutes to make the trip (IE the bus arrives into Cheetham Hill at 11:32, the bus then does the 21 min journey to Pendleton which makes it 11:53. The next 53 journey leaves Pendleton at 11:55). This means that for a 2 hour round trip, you have only 2 minutes of layover or you need to pass out the timetable to make it 32 minutes (that's a lot of padding and simply isn't viable.
Basing it on best case scenario of only having 2 mins layover on the round trip and running every 30 minutes, you would need 4 buses per circular so 8 buses in all.

Overall, this means there is a saving of 2 buses but it comes at the detriment of punctuality on the circular and a huge reduction in frequency in other areas.


Counter proposal
Make the 52 run 4 buses per hour (half hourly Failsworth to Eccles and half hourly Cheetham Hill to Trafford Centre). This works out as 14 buses.
Run the circulars as per your proposal.
Pros:
This means there is less impact on the frequencies (6bph Cheetham Hill to Pendleton
Same PVR Cheetham Hill to Pendleton (Rather than a reduction)
Less of a reduction between Eccles and Pendleton
No increase in service at the extreme ends of the 52.

Cons:
Doesn't resolve the issue of the circulars running times and punctuality issues.

Other than that counter proposal, I think you would be best leaving it as it is simply because of the punctuality issues with a full circular would have. It only works in Birmingham because the service is so frequent and so a delay or dropping a bus has much less effect on passengers compared to the proposed circulars. The Birmingham outer circular also has 13 minutes of actual layover in the timetable as well as likely some padding. I can see the appeal of a bigger circular around Manchester but I just think it's too tight on the current services as they are. If the 53 was busy enough for an enhancement to every 20 minutes, there is a bit more chance of the circulars being viable as the layover and padding would work easier so punctuality would be better. The 52 however needs to be kind of untouched as the frequency must be justified else it wouldn't be so frequent.

 

[Boo_]

the 53 is painful to use. it far faster to get 2 buses and go in and back out of Manchester. it none stop traffic lights / traffic / waiting at bus stops.

 

[507021]

Looking at how you have said it, you would be looking at very strange frequencies on common sections and overall, it would lead to quite big cuts in the level of service. Between Cheetham Hill and Pendleton (Salford Shopping Centre), you would be going from an even every 10 min service down to 5 buses per hour split over 2 routes on differing frequencies which often leads to 2 buses coming at the same time which then makes the '5bph' reduce.
Between Pendleton and Eccles, you are then proposing to half the frequency. That won't go down well with passengers.
I believe the 52 service as you propose it would have a PVR of 11 (down from current 13).

For a Circular of this length to work, you need a lot of padding and need buses to stop at key stops for a few minutes as timetabled. Based on the current timetable, extending the 53 from Pendleton to Cheetham Hill would take 21 minutes and the service only has 23 minutes to make the trip (IE the bus arrives into Cheetham Hill at 11:32, the bus then does the 21 min journey to Pendleton which makes it 11:53. The next 53 journey leaves Pendleton at 11:55). This means that for a 2 hour round trip, you have only 2 minutes of layover or you need to pass out the timetable to make it 32 minutes (that's a lot of padding and simply isn't viable.
Basing it on best case scenario of only having 2 mins layover on the round trip and running every 30 minutes, you would need 4 buses per circular so 8 buses in all.

Overall, this means there is a saving of 2 buses but it comes at the detriment of punctuality on the circular and a huge reduction in frequency in other areas.


Counter proposal
Make the 52 run 4 buses per hour (half hourly Failsworth to Eccles and half hourly Cheetham Hill to Trafford Centre). This works out as 14 buses.
Run the circulars as per your proposal.
Pros:
This means there is less impact on the frequencies (6bph Cheetham Hill to Pendleton
Same PVR Cheetham Hill to Pendleton (Rather than a reduction)
Less of a reduction between Eccles and Pendleton
No increase in service at the extreme ends of the 52.

Cons:
Doesn't resolve the issue of the circulars running times and punctuality issues.

Other than that counter proposal, I think you would be best leaving it as it is simply because of the punctuality issues with a full circular would have. It only works in Birmingham because the service is so frequent and so a delay or dropping a bus has much less effect on passengers compared to the proposed circulars. The Birmingham outer circular also has 13 minutes of actual layover in the timetable as well as likely some padding. I can see the appeal of a bigger circular around Manchester but I just think it's too tight on the current services as they are. If the 53 was busy enough for an enhancement to every 20 minutes, there is a bit more chance of the circulars being viable as the layover and padding would work easier so punctuality would be better. The 52 however needs to be kind of untouched as the frequency must be justified else it wouldn't be so frequent.

Better still, leave them as they are.

With respect, do we really need threads for news/updates clogged up with route alteration suggestions?

 

[markymark2000]

Better still, leave them as they are.

With respect, do we really need threads for news/updates clogged up with route alteration suggestions?

I agree with you there. I can see the benefits though of a circular. I only opted for counter proposals and trying to explain it as a way to maybe encourage conversation.

With your second point, a speculative bus section would be good I think.

 

[507021]

I agree with you there. I can see the benefits though of a circular. I only opted for counter proposals and trying to explain it as a way to maybe encourage conversation.

With your second point, a speculative bus section would be good I think.

Don't get me wrong, I think speculation and sharing ideas is good, but it'd be better in its own dedicated thread otherwise news/updates may get missed.

 

[upasalmon]

I like markymark2000 counter proposal to mine but the Cheetham to Trafford Centre wo uld only be possible Mon-Sat daytime (as 52A), the evening short being 52E instead. The early eve/Sun 52 would still be needed to run Failsworth-Trafford Centre hourly.
As these suggestions affect Go Ahead NW only this is the best place to put them, even though this was not my original idea.

 

[507021]

Go North West are trialling a Mercedes-Benz Citaro, which is on hire from Go North East, with a view to potentially introducing 23 of the type next year.

 

[NewcastleOne]

Go North West are trialling a Mercedes-Benz Citaro, which is on hire from Go North East, with a view to potentially introducing 23 of the type next year.

5305 I believe. The Crusader and Tynedale express models (08 Regs) are being withdrawn. Interior wise very good however (allegedly, from several local sources) are in poor condition mechanically. So will be interesting to see how they do.

 

[507021]

Go North West are to acquire 23 Mercedes-Benz Citaros from Go North East.

 

[mic]

Go North West are to acquire 23 Mercedes-Benz Citaros from Go North East.

that is good to hear this will see of the remaining B7s single decks some of these ones coming will be branded up for the 41 service info from Go North west behind the sences facebook group

 

[Alexbus12]

The drama again is intensifying. Drivers are currently balloting on whether to take industrial action:

Unite, the UK’s leading union, will begin balloting its members at bus company Go North West in Manchester for strike action this week, in a dispute over the company’s decision to impose new contracts of employment by firing and rehiring its workforce, resulting in cuts to jobs, pay and conditions.

Fire and Rehire​

Go North West, which is part of the Go Ahead Group, first threatened to fire and rehire its workforce last summer but Unite was able to get the process halted and entered into negotiations.

The union proposed a million pounds worth of savings and in addition a further saving of £200,000 as a result of accepting a year long pay freeze for the workers based at the Queens Road Depot.

Prepared to negotiate​

However the savings identified by Unite were not sufficient for Go North West and the company is now forcing through its fire and rehire proposals, which will, if implemented, result in:

• A 10 per cent cut in bus drivers
• Workers, who earn an average of £24,000 per annum, forced to work longer for no additional pay, resulting in them being £2,500 a year worse off
• Tearing up the existing sick policy, which will force workers to work when they are sick or should be self-isolating during the Covid-19 pandemic

The ballot for strike action will open tomorrow (Tuesday 26 January) and the ballot will close on Tuesday 9 February. Unite has just under 500 members at the depot.

February strikes a possibility​

If members vote in favour of industrial action then strikes could begin before the end of February.

The company is already forcing workers to attend one-to-one meetings and telling them that if they agree to the new contract within seven days, they will receive favourable routes and schedules.

Unite is highly concerned that this amounts to intimidation, bullying and blackmail and is investigating whether the company’s actions breach employment law.

Totally unacceptable​

Unite regional secretary Ritchie James said: “Go North West has refused to end its threat of firing and rehiring its workers and is instead pushing ahead with its proposals, which will result in job losses, pay cuts and slashed sick pay.

“As a result, Unite has no option but to begin balloting its members for strike action.

“If members vote for industrial action, strikes could begin before the end of February. This would inevitably create a huge amount of disruption to public transport in the Manchester area.

“Unite is committed to returning to the negotiating table but in order to do so Go North West must first remove the threat of firing and rehiring our members.”

Strike ballot in Manchester bus drivers fire and rehire dispute

unitetheunion.org

 

[cnjb8]

The drama again is intensifying. Drivers are currently balloting on whether to take industrial action:

Strike ballot in Manchester bus drivers fire and rehire dispute

unitetheunion.org

Does fire and refire mean fire your employees and then rehire those same employees but reduce pay etc?

 

[Alexbus12]

Does fire and refire mean fire your employees and then rehire those same employees but reduce pay etc?

Automatic rehire with new contracts and slightly different terms

 

[cnjb8]

Automatic rehire with new contracts and slightly different terms

Ah thank you. I assume in this case it was lower pay or more hours

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ah thank you. I assume in this case it was lower pay or more hours

I believe it's a little more nuanced than that. I mean, it's still a cut in pay etc, whichever way you want to look at it.

Go North West (GNW) are losing money (as were First before them) and you either increase fares, or reduce costs by reducing frequencies or trying to change your base costs. They could vacate Queens Road in favour of a lower cost open air depot (as per Bolton or Sharston) but that's neither cheap or quick to do. Fuel is a major cost and they'll squeeze that down as much as they can by improving driving standards, more fuel efficient vehicles, price hedging et.

However, staff costs are by far the largest cost area as we know. GNW inherited all sorts of legacy terms and conditions. Stuff like drivers getting a payment to wind destination screens etc. Also, drivers have the right to not work overtime so if you're delayed on an inbound run to Manchester from Bury and won't be back before the scheduled shift end, then buses run out of service if a driver doesn't want to work over.

GNW's approach is to effectively reduce the drivers' pay by buying out the terms and conditions - here's a sum of £5k up front (saving £3.5k per driver per year so an 18 month payback). That will remove the more archaic terms though it seems there was some playing of the sick scheme too, as well as losing less mileage. Now, they could have simply "red circled" the existing drivers - they retain their current terms but all new entrants would arrive on new terms. That has happened elsewhere. Why not here? You'd have to ask GNW but perhaps they feel they need to act now OR there is the issue (which I've seen before) where you have people doing the same job for different money and it become acrimonious.

Why move to fire and rehire rather than the buying out as originally envisaged? Again, you can only speculate on why GNW are pursuing this strategy? Pressurising the drivers to accept the original offer? Or perhaps feeling that patience is running low and that Unite are drawing things out? Again, you'd have to ask GNW!

I know this has been discussed earlier (and hope I don't draw the ire of the mods) but thought it worth a reprise.

 

[Bwsbro]

From the recently published route map, routes 67 & 100 are to be branded as Salford’s Reds

 

[cnjb8]

From the recently published route map, routes 67 & 100 are to be branded as Salford’s Reds

Using what buses? Nearly all the buses are in GNW livery or a brand so I'm struggling to see which buses they'll brand.

 

[Mothball]

I seem to remember GNW briefly had a partnership with the Salford Red Devils running buses to the stadium that I think the 67/100 run past. Obviously there hasn't been any matches to run buses for since Covid but I wonder if its just a advert, for want of a better word. I imagine the partnership will still stand once sporting events reopen to the public

 

[Bungle965]

I seem to remember GNW briefly had a partnership with the Salford Red Devils running buses to the stadium that I think the 67/100 run past. Obviously there hasn't been any matches to run buses for since Covid but I wonder if its just a advert, for want of a better word. I imagine the partnership will still stand once sporting events reopen to the public

Only the 100 runs past the AJ Bell stadium, the 67 stays on Liverpool Road.

 

[gnolife]

Only the 100 runs past the AJ Bell stadium, the 67 stays on Liverpool Road.

That's still pretty close to the stadium

 

[Alexbus12]

Manchester bus drivers vote for strike action in Go North West fire and hire dispute

Bus drivers at Go North West, who are members of Unite, the UK’s leading union, have overwhelmingly voted for strike action, in response to the company’s plans to fire and rehire them on vastly inferior contracts and in reaction to the company’s extremely aggressive and hostile approach towards them.​

Huge yes vote​

The workers recorded an 82 per cent yes vote in support of strike action on a 77 per cent turnout.​

Unite is now consulting with members about how we go forward in light of this decisive ballot result. In the meantime the union is calling upon Go North West to tear up its fire and rehire plans and return to the negotiating table.​

Last month Go North West summarily ended negotiations with Unite over cost saving proposals at its Queens Road depot and immediately began individual consultations with workers over its fire and rehire proposals.​

Pay and conditions slashed​

If implemented, Go North West fire and rehire plans would result in:​

• A 10 per cent cut in bus drivers
• Workers, who earn an average of £24,000 per annum, forced to work longer for no additional pay, resulting in them being £2,500 a year worse off
• Tearing up the existing sick pay policy, which will force workers to work when they are sick or should be self-isolating during the Covid-19 pandemic

If strike action is held than it will inevitably cause a huge amount of disruption to bus passengers throughout Greater Manchester and beyond.​

Members' anger​

Unite regional secretary Ritchie James said: “This is an excellent result and underlines the anger of our members who are being forced by Go North West to choose between their jobs and huge cuts in their pay and conditions.​

“Unite is now providing Go North West with a very short window of opportunity, where it can tear up its fire and rehire plans and return to the negotiating table.​

“If the company fails to grasp this opportunity than Unite will not hesitate in calling strike action.​

“Strike action will inevitably cause huge disruption to Manchester commuters but I hope that it is understood this is entirely a result of Go North West cynically trying to use the Covid-19 pandemic as cover to hire and rehire workers and slashing their pay and conditions.​

“Unite’s members have been forced into this position by the company which has waged an extremely aggressive and hostile campaign against its own workers.” ​

​

Manchester bus drivers vote for strike action in Go North West fire and hire dispute

unitetheunion.org

​

 

[Towielad]

What’s current situation at Go North West, seeing increasing numbers of their own fleet operating daily

 

[markymark2000]

What’s current situation at Go North West, seeing increasing numbers of their own fleet operating daily

I believe that GoNorthWest are giving their buses to the contracted firms to operate services with using GNW ticket machines and buses, the contractor then providing the driver for the buses and I presume fuel. Basically not providing their own vehicle though.

Adding to that, GoNorthWest are running more buses on some routes as drivers start returning to work off strike.

 

[Robertj21a]

I believe that GoNorthWest are giving their buses to the contracted firms to operate services with using GNW ticket machines and buses, the contractor then providing the driver for the buses and I presume fuel. Basically not providing their own vehicle though.

Adding to that, GoNorthWest are running more buses on some routes as drivers start returning to work off strike.

It's looking like this long running dispute is beginning to collapse. Not too surprising I guess.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I believe that GoNorthWest are giving their buses to the contracted firms to operate services with using GNW ticket machines and buses, the contractor then providing the driver for the buses and I presume fuel. Basically not providing their own vehicle though.

A post I saw on social media appeared to indeed show a line up of Go North West (GNW) vehicles parked up at the Red Rose depot, alongside Red Rose’s own fleet. So what would appear to be an increased GNW presence on the road, might actually still be partially subcontractors drivers at the wheel.

 

[M60lad]

Apparently there's also a number of B9TLs from Go Northwest being operated at the moment from Selwyn's Sharston Depot and according to someone on social media one even appeared on Selwyn's Tendered 44 Manchester-Wythenshaw Hospital service yesterday.

Other news service wise is that apparently Go Northwest or a subcontractor using their vehicles was doing the majority of daytime 93s in place of Midland Classic yesterday.

Midland Classic along with Go Northwest were operating 97 Bury-Manchester service yesterday

2 Red Routemaster former Stagecoach Dennis Dart Plaxton SLFs were sighted on 98s yesterday along with an Orbit liveried Go Northwest E200.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Apparently there's also a number of B9TLs from Go Northwest being operated at the moment from Selwyn's Sharston Depot and according to someone on social media one even appeared on Selwyn's Tendered 44 Manchester-Wythenshaw Hospital service yesterday.

I also saw a Selwyns bus on the 135 in Manchester on Saturday.

 

[43055]

Other news service wise is that apparently Go Northwest or a subcontractor using their vehicles was doing the majority of daytime 93s in place of Midland Classic yesterday.

Midland Classic along with Go Northwest were operating 97 Bury-Manchester service yesterday

Only recently came across Midland Classic helping in Manchester on bus times. Seems like a very long way to me as most of the runs from Burton are around 2 hours.

 

[cnjb8]

Only recently came across Midland Classic helping in Manchester on bus times. Seems like a very long way to me as most of the runs from Burton are around 2 hours.

It's an interesting one, they've drafted in an extra bus from Centrebus yet they are running GNW replacements

 

[43055]

It's an interesting one, they've drafted in an extra bus from Centrebus yet they are running GNW replacements

Not one but 3 on loan and I presume the Versa is staying. From Derby bus depot news page:

Some vehicles are currently on loan here.Near normal school day timetables resuming this week and three vehicles are still being used in Manchester daily, covering services effected by the ongoing Go North West strike. Vehicles on loan are:
Dart Plaxton Pointer 222 (DE54 LUX) - White (from Deluxe coach hire).
DAF Wright Commander 220 (FD52 GGV) - Arriva livery (ex chase, now privately preserved).
VDL Centro 120 (FJ56 YBW) - Centrebus livery.

the former Ipswich Versa is number 20 (YK08 EPA).