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Go North West

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TheGrandWazoo

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I still don't understand what GNW's (inherited) sick pay arrangements are, and what they're seeking to introduce in place of the current arrangements. If that means drivers who are ill, driving vehicles because they don't want to lose pay then I can imagine the union having a valid issue and their standing their ground.

What GNW wants to achieve could be achieved by a different approach - simply draw the line on a fixed date, and everyone employed after that date is on the revised terms, whilst protecting the existing drivers. Over time, there would be less and less of those people (they are dismissed, leave, or retire). Stagecoach were very adept at reducing the numbers of people on such conditions - the opco I worked at continually sent inspectors down to the depot en masse and, surprise surprise, they kept on finding things wrong....

I suspect that this is a bit of a hidden issue. I don't know what the sick pay arrangements are but wonder if levels of sickness absence are considerably higher than the norm? And if so, why?

The concept of red-circling staff so you have a cut off has its draw backs. I managed at a site where we had guys who had transferred in on TUPE (from a number of firms) and then people on our own "new" terms. Of course, you had to have a couple of the ones on historic terms who would lord it over the newer staff which was pretty corrosive for industrial relations.

Purely to put my view to rest, I did slate the strike and all that until it came out that the drivers had voted in favour of industrial action. If drivers go for a strike or whatever they choose to do, sobeit, that is their choice as a union member. As long as it's done legally, that's fine, no issue.
What I do have a problem with however is people who have nothing to do with the situation (in this case Stockport Trade Council) sticking their beak in to cause disruption to thousands of people. By and large, they are reading what a union tells them and (like the majority of us), only know that side of the story. Further to that, the action that is being taken isn't lawful, it is blocking a public road without any prior notice. If you as an employee are not happy with what is proposed, you do what you have to do within the law. 3rd parties who, lets be honest, exist just there to annoy private companies, need to keep out of the situation as it will make it worse for the drivers. Lost revenue from these 'protests' will mean there is less chance of negotiation and slowly, it will create more issues.

I am not ranting at drivers who are well within their right to protest however the 3rd party unionists doing illegal protests are the issue.

Absolutely agree. If staff wish to protest, then they should have the ability to. What isn't on are the activists who turn up to "show solidarity" and "sticking it to the man" whilst not actually having any liability for what happens!

Nigel Featham has put comment to the Manchester Evening News, the last paragraph is quite something though.



Thanks for those. Certainly, for all of Unite's posturing, it's clear that First were losing money and so are GNW. It simply can't go on, and for Unite to use the ploy of "they make money elsewhere" means that somewhere, people are getting paid perhaps less than they deserve.

There are all sorts of implications for the franchising proposal in all this.
 
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M803UYA

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Even with the franchising proposals, if GNW was going after 'new' business then it can hire people on it's 'new' terms and conditions, or TUPE drivers across from other companies, TUPE doesn't always get applied, especially where a new employer offers better terms and conditions than the existing one. The reverse can apply and GNW could end up with TUPE'd staff on superior terms and conditions and the same issue they presently have.

I don't know if Stagecoach practise 'red circling' nationally, but in the opco I worked in the split was 60/40% within 18 months of taking over, I would imagine that it reduces over time and in the end you'd just have a few people in a depot within a few years, if you have high staff turnover.

I suspect that this is a bit of a hidden issue. I don't know what the sick pay arrangements are but wonder if levels of sickness absence are considerably higher than the norm? And if so, why?

There are all sorts of implications for the franchising proposal in all this.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Even with the franchising proposals, if GNW was going after 'new' business then it can hire people on it's 'new' terms and conditions, or TUPE drivers across from other companies, TUPE doesn't always get applied, especially where a new employer offers better terms and conditions than the existing one. The reverse can apply and GNW could end up with TUPE'd staff on superior terms and conditions and the same issue they presently have.

I don't know if Stagecoach practise 'red circling' nationally, but in the opco I worked in the split was 60/40% within 18 months of taking over, I would imagine that it reduces over time and in the end you'd just have a few people in a depot within a few years, if you have high staff turnover.

Perhaps that is part of the problem; they can't hire on new T&Cs because of some restrictive union agreement. You can have red circling and there are pros and cons as we've described. Another problem is that they are probably losing so much that even 18 months might be too long get half way along that road. I know that when Stagecoach purchased Busways in the mid 1990s, they did a similar exercise and bought out the drivers terms and conditions.

As regards franchising, will GNW carry on their threat and close the depot and where would that leave franchising in that area?

Do you you assume that essentially, TfGM will tender a package of routes based on QR depot that the successful tenderer gets at a nominal £1 rent plus utilities. If they then have to take the same workforce on the same terms as now but clearly, staff costs (which are the main cost) are in excess of farebox so that "loss" is then going to be reflected in tender prices and charged back to TfGM?

I don't believe individual routes are being proposed for franchising so it wouldn't be a case of being undercut by a neighbouring depot of another firm though?
 

KendalKing

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Perhaps that is part of the problem; they can't hire on new T&Cs because of some restrictive union agreement. You can have red circling and there are pros and cons as we've described. Another problem is that they are probably losing so much that even 18 months might be too long get half way along that road. I know that when Stagecoach purchased Busways in the mid 1990s, they did a similar exercise and bought out the drivers terms and conditions.

As regards franchising, will GNW carry on their threat and close the depot and where would that leave franchising in that area?

Do you you assume that essentially, TfGM will tender a package of routes based on QR depot that the successful tenderer gets at a nominal £1 rent plus utilities. If they then have to take the same workforce on the same terms as now but clearly, staff costs (which are the main cost) are in excess of farebox so that "loss" is then going to be reflected in tender prices and charged back to TfGM?

I don't believe individual routes are being proposed for franchising so it wouldn't be a case of being undercut by a neighbouring depot of another firm though?

The 10 nearest depots to Queens Road are:-

Hyde Road (Stagecoach) – 3-miles

Middleton (Stagecoach) – 4-miles

Eccles (Rotala) – 6-miles

Oldham (First) – 7-miles

Ashton (Stagecoach) – 8-miles

Stockport (Stagecoach) – 8-miles

Sharston (Stagecoach) – 10-miles

Wythenshaw (Arriva) – 11-miles

Bolton (Rotala) – 12-miles

Bolton (Arriva/First) – 13-miles


So, if anything was to happen, to Queens Road depot. Stagecoach would be the best placed operator, to take on extra services.
 

cnjb8

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The 10 nearest depots to Queens Road are:-

Hyde Road (Stagecoach) – 3-miles

Middleton (Stagecoach) – 4-miles

Eccles (Rotala) – 6-miles

Oldham (First) – 7-miles

Ashton (Stagecoach) – 8-miles

Stockport (Stagecoach) – 8-miles

Sharston (Stagecoach) – 10-miles

Wythenshaw (Arriva) – 11-miles

Bolton (Rotala) – 12-miles

Bolton (Arriva/First) – 13-miles


So, if anything was to happen, to Queens Road depot. Stagecoach would be the best placed operator, to take on extra services.
But do Stagecoach have the buses to take on services?
 

Tetchytyke

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Thanks for those. Certainly, for all of Unite's posturing, it's clear that First were losing money and so are GNW.

I don't know, Featham was making the same threats to Arriva Durham County drivers last year, when he was Arriva's boss in the north east. It turns out Arriva could afford a pay rise after all, when the drivers pushed it enough.

It's all posturing. Go-Ahead will have done due diligence, they'll have identified that margins could improve with "efficiencies" (I think that's the correct euphemism for "screwing over staff on pay", anyway), and now they're using hire-and-rehire laws to intimidate negotiate with drivers. Maybe Go-Ahead would take their bat and ball home but I doubt it. Covid is a fantastic opportunity to drive down wages, though.

What isn't on are the activists who turn up to "show solidarity" and "sticking it to the man" whilst not actually having any liability for what happens!

Whilst I agree in theory, the consequence of using increasingly restrictive laws to try and neuter the unions is that non-union protesters will fill the void.

You know as well as I do that GNW employees can't protest because of laws against wildcat strikes- any sort of protest designed to put pressure on an employer counts as industrial action. Striking in the UK isn't actually a legal right, remember.

The laws around industrial disputes also means protesters must make it very clear they have no connection with Unite or the employees of GNW. So they must be a "community group". It doesn't (necessarily!) make them goons looking for a ruck.
 
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M803UYA

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I'm only surmising here, but Go Ahead have successfully developed lower cost units to tender for work (Damory under GSC has a lower pay rate than the main operations, and Damory vehicles do work out of morebus sites alongside their drivers), so they must have something in mind for 'new work' which could come into the depot. I don't know the capacity of Queens Road, whether it's full, or underused, if the latter they would be looking to spread their overheads among more vehicles and services.

Are TfGM envisaging procuring existing operators depots for their franchise scheme?

There is a lot missing from what both sides are putting out publicly. It doesn't seem logical, to me, that Go Ahead would simply walk away from Greater Manchester having bought this depot and the operations.

Perhaps that is part of the problem; they can't hire on new T&Cs because of some restrictive union agreement. You can have red circling and there are pros and cons as we've described. Another problem is that they are probably losing so much that even 18 months might be too long get half way along that road. I know that when Stagecoach purchased Busways in the mid 1990s, they did a similar exercise and bought out the drivers terms and conditions.

As regards franchising, will GNW carry on their threat and close the depot and where would that leave franchising in that area?

Do you you assume that essentially, TfGM will tender a package of routes based on QR depot that the successful tenderer gets at a nominal £1 rent plus utilities. If they then have to take the same workforce on the same terms as now but clearly, staff costs (which are the main cost) are in excess of farebox so that "loss" is then going to be reflected in tender prices and charged back to TfGM?

I don't believe individual routes are being proposed for franchising so it wouldn't be a case of being undercut by a neighbouring depot of another firm though?
 

LOL The Irony

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It doesn't seem logical, to me, that Go Ahead would simply walk away from Greater Manchester having bought this depot and the operations.
If things continues as is, there's nothing stopping them selling it off to the next sucker. They're trying to make it not a basket case and unite aren't making that possible right now.
 

M803UYA

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If things continues as is, there's nothing stopping them selling it off to the next sucker. They're trying to make it not a basket case and unite aren't making that possible right now.
Are they? There aren't many willing purchasers for bus companies these days. Go Ahead have invested millions into their Manchester operation and I doubt very much they'd write that much off. They have done so in East Anglia, but that is a very different operating territory, being predominantly rural.
 

Boo_

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How you have to lock at is what are the Buses / Queens road worth? as they could just wind it down and sell Queens road. And keep the free buses
 

markymark2000

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Are they? There aren't many willing purchasers for bus companies these days. Go Ahead have invested millions into their Manchester operation and I doubt very much they'd write that much off. They have done so in East Anglia, but that is a very different operating territory, being predominantly rural.
I think that 'walking away' is not what they plan to do and that is more to show the severity of the situation and that if this continues, that may end up being an option.

I don't know much about union negotiations but can a company negotiate 2 parts so they sort out the rollerblind and 'spare' shifts stuff and then separately negotiate the sick pay as that seems to be the straw breaking the camels back. This would help save some money but not as much as the full package and could help GNW overall.


For those who don't know, Yesterday was the Greater Manchester Combined Authority Transport Committee, Bus Sub Committee meeting (that's a mouthful to say). This exact topic of the industrial action came up.
Link to the meeting (link to view the stream for the meeting is also on this page): https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=193&MId=4124&Ver=4

Nigel was of course there explaining what is going on and to summarise what he has said, the unions have been very uncooperative being against the idea of the condition changes but not putting forward any alternatives and they then stopped going to meetings. The depot loses £2m per year and it's as a result of these conditions so they are keen to sort that. The S118 'fire and rehire' thing was issued to try and kickstart the negotiations as Unite weren't cooperating.
A Councillor replied that he was threatened by union reps to sign a letter of support or they would picket and protest outside his private business. He didn't sign and the union stuck to their word so as well as GNW, he also had to call police to get rid of these unionists out of his computer shop.
 

GusB

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He said, she said... Let's not forget that there are two sides to every story. Let's keep it civil, please.
 

KendalKing

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But do Stagecoach have the buses to take on services?
Before Covid-19, most depots with-in the Stagecoach empire had between 15-20% spare buses. So getting extra buses into Manchester wouldn't be a problem, the problem would be space at the existing depots with-in Manchester.

It not help with the Management at Go-Ahead saying one thing, and the union saying another.

We need to remember that Go-Ahead have spent a lot of much needed money on Queens Road depot, also updating and refurbishing the fleet at Queens Road. Which have been well documented on they Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/search/top... west&__epa__=SEARCH_BOX&__eps__=SERP_TOP_TAB
 

cnjb8

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Before Covid-19, most depots with-in the Stagecoach empire had between 15-20% spare buses. So getting extra buses into Manchester wouldn't be a problem, the problem would be space at the existing depots with-in Manchester.

It not help with the Management at Go-Ahead saying one thing, and the union saying another.

We need to remember that Go-Ahead have spent a lot of much needed money on Queens Road depot, also updating and refurbishing the fleet at Queens Road. Which have been well documented on they Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=behind the scenes at go north west&__epa__=SEARCH_BOX&__eps__=SERP_TOP_TAB
But those 15-20% are being used on extra school services etc for the other Stagecoach companies.
 

carlberry

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If things continues as is, there's nothing stopping them selling it off to the next sucker. They're trying to make it not a basket case and unite aren't making that possible right now.
The big difference now is that the transport authority have stated that they'll compulsory purchase the depots so that all anybody would be purchasing is the staff, and buses if they wanted to keep them.
 

John B

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Don't forget that Abellio have indicated a strong interest in any Manchester franchising.
 

Boo_

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Ah, got you now.

Not be hard for them? Where are the surplus buses???
Dotted all over the place can also lend buses from friends. currently they have 21 Megabus coaches extra on the fleet and there about 30 buses in Reserve at Stagecoach Manchester but they maybe needed when megabus needs there coaches back if they do want them back as number of them are ex NX coaches from SG and if you look at other big fleets they would have a number of Reserves also. and it would just be a stop gap .
 

GusB

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Please remember that the subject of this thread is Go North West - please try to stay on-topic.
 

Boo_

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Coaches can't be used apart from school services with a permit as they have to be DDA so any company that would want to fill in on GNW shoes would need DDA Spec apart from special school services and can't take fares
 

Alexbus12

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Another protest outside the depot this morning, again the police were called and the network has suffered quite severe disruption.
 

upasalmon

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At the risk of rapped knuckles I'm going to make a suggestion regarding Go North West routes 52 and 53. Has it been considered turning these into an "Outer Circle" route? A section of the 52 (Salford Shopping Centre SSC-Cheetham Hill) be linked to the 53 (Cheetham Hill-SSC). The clockwise route would be 53 and the anti-clock become 54. The short 52 journeys could be withdrawn leaving the 52 Failsworth- Trafford Centre intact. Evening 52A would run Failsworth- NM Hospital.
53/54 would be every 30 mins Mon-Sat daytime and hourly Eve's/Suns . Over to you!

A slight amendment under this scheme 52 would run from Failsworth- to Trafford Centre every 20 minutes NSu, and hourly Sunday alongside suggested 53/54.
 
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