Great Western to DOR?

[The Planner]

RMT claiming this is possible according to their website.

RAIL UNION RMT revealed today that it has been officially notified of a rescue plan to bring in the publicly owned Directly Operated Railways to run the major Great Western franchise between London, Wales and the South West, fuelling speculation that talks on a contract extension with First Group, due to be announced in the next few weeks, are in trouble.

RMT has received the following notification from DOR:

“GW Railway Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of Directly Operated Railways, has today submitted applications to the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) for a Safety Certificate (Part A and Part B) and Safety Authorisation in respect of undertaking train and station operations on the Great Western Franchise (i.e. the line of route currently operated by First Greater Western), should current negotiations between the Department for Transport and First Group, on a short term extension to the franchise commencing in October 2013, fail to reach a satisfactory conclusion."

First Group are currently receiving taxpayers revenue support of more than £200 million to run the franchise and in May 2011 announced that they would not be taking up an option to extend the Great Western contract in order to dodge more than £800 million in premium payments due to the British taxpayer.

(read more)

 

[SkinnyDave]

I'm preparing for my driver managers interview, I hope this doesn't alter there recruitment plans

 

[swt_passenger]

RMT just reporting the normal practice of DOR to do their administrative stuff on a 'just in case' basis. Exactly the same happened in the lead up to the WCML decision following Virgin's complaints.

I'm remembering discussions about how long it would take DOR to have a safety case in place, with named individuals nominated etc.

 

[richw]

From another forum I visit, I read the following earlier. These are my own words as I cant find the post now!
Its related to FGW having not agreed the short term extension as yet, due to the WCML fiasco the DfT want to happen. It was due to end in March, but was extended to October, however DfT want to extend it further, but as yet no contract has been agreed.
DOR need to be prepared so that they have all their certificates in order should the DfT and FGW not come to agreement, otherwise we could see no operator in October when FGW end their contract, if DOR aren't organised ready to go.

 

[pemma]

If you look at the actual full Patrick McLoughlin made with regards to franchise extensions all it actually confirmed was the start dates for the next franchise awards. It did say the difference between the current franchise end dates and the next franchise start dates would be an extension of the current franchise but if that couldn't be agreed with the current operator they would instead transfer to DOR.

Isn't c2c the only operator which has had the extension actually confirmed?

 

[Brunel]

Add ContentRAIL UNION RMT revealed today that it has been officially notified of a rescue plan to bring in the publicly owned Directly Operated Railways to run the major Great Western franchise between London, Wales and the South West, fuelling speculation that talks on a contract extension with First Group, due to be announced in the next few weeks, are in trouble.

RMT has received the following notification from DOR:

“GW Railway Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of Directly Operated Railways, has today submitted applications to the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) for a Safety Certificate (Part A and Part B) and Safety Authorisation in respect of undertaking train and station operations on the Great Western Franchise (i.e. the line of route currently operated by First Greater Western), should current negotiations between the Department for Transport and First Group, on a short term extension to the franchise commencing in October 2013, fail to reach a satisfactory conclusion. “

First Group are currently receiving taxpayers revenue support of more than £200 million to run the franchise and in May 2011 announced that they would not be taking up an option to extend the Great Western contract in order to dodge more than £800 million in premium payments due to the British taxpayer.

As a result of the collapse of First’s bid to run the West Coast the entire franchising process has been reduced to chaos and as a consequence a whole raft of current route holders have forced their way into a monopoly provider position able to bully the DFT into paying through the nose to keep trains running. That includes First Great Western.

RMT believes that with First having already taken the taxpayer for over a billion pounds in dodged premiums and revenue support in the past two years, that even this pro-privatisation Government is reluctant to stuff their mouths with yet more public cash, hence why DOR have set up a new arm – GW Railway Ltd – and have submitted applications for the certification to run the Great Western route.

RMT believes that the whole expensive and disruptive exercise should be called to a halt now with the Great Western route renationalised using the mechanism established by the publicly-owned DOR rather than waiting for a last ditch public sector rescue operation.

RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said:

“Clearly the talks with First are in trouble, otherwise DOR wouldn’t have set up GW Railways and wouldn’t have applied for the certification and licensing to sweep up the mess created by a another twist in the sorry shambles of rail franchising in the wake of the West Coast fiasco.

“First Group have already soaked up over a billion pounds in taxpayer bailouts and dodged premiums in the past two years and it just makes you wonder what shed loads of cash they are trying to lever out of the Government in the talks currently underway.

“This nonsense could be ended right now with the Great Western route renationalised, East Coast left to operate in public hands, the rest of the franchises brought under public control and the whole lot brought back under one national organisation run in the interests of public service and not private greed.”

 

[F Great Eastern]

Be a shame if it did happen -

Do we know pretty much what the government are looking for?

Some on here said a while ago basically Virgin could name their price and use the situation to their advantage to get a good deal after the whole WCML issues.

Are the government playing more hardball with the other operators?

 

[313103]

First Group are in financial turmoil at the moment, as seen in previous threads their core Bus operations are more or less coming to an end, the loss of the WCML and the current financial climate have hit First group hard.

If would be good in the long run if the operation was handed back, they didn't want the extension in the first place knowing that electrification would lose lots of money, they only wanted to come back when they had a nice new train set to play with.

Will First Group last the year out is now a more pertinent question.

 

[ryan125hst]

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the Great Western franchise handed over to DOR. They run the services through my local station (operating as East Coast of course) and I am impressed with them. They have painted the trains at last (there are very few left to do now, National Express managed to do the HST's but painted a grand total of one Class 91!). They look professional- just look at their timetables, and their uniform is also very smart.

As well as this, they are improving the services. With the introduction of the Eureka timetable and services to Lincoln, they clearly want the best for the ECML. They aren't perfect: Retford's services could be better and, looking at the thread on the complimentary first class catering, I would prefer to see the return of the restaurant car.

I believe they are operating a good service in my opinion, and with the franchise system the mess that it is at the minute, maybe we should start to look at renationalising? After all, aren't East Coast the only profitable Train Operating Company?

That said, while I have never travelled with FGW so can't speak from personal experience, they seem to have spent a lot of money on refurbishing their trains and they look good to me. They are also the only TOC to operate a Pullman dining service. However, if they are in financial difficulties, do we want them to continue operating services? I would be interested to see what DOR could do.

 

[tbtc]

"Rescue"?

What a typically emotive and incorrect word from the master of such hysterical press releases.

 

[ModernRailways]

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the Great Western franchise handed over to DOR. They run the services through my local station (operating as East Coast of course) and I am impressed with them. They have painted the trains at last (there are very few left to do now, National Express managed to do the HST's but painted a grand total of one Class 91!). They look professional- just look at their timetables, and their uniform is also very smart.

As well as this, they are improving the services. With the introduction of the Eureka timetable and services to Lincoln, they clearly want the best for the ECML. They aren't perfect: Retford's services could be better and, looking at the thread on the complimentary first class catering, I would prefer to see the return of the restaurant car.

I believe they are operating a good service in my opinion, and with the franchise system the mess that it is at the minute, maybe we should start to look at renationalising? After all, aren't East Coast the only profitable Train Operating Company?

That said, while I have never travelled with FGW so can't speak from personal experience, they seem to have spent a lot of money on refurbishing their trains and they look good to me. They are also the only TOC to operate a Pullman dining service. However, if they are in financial difficulties, do we want them to continue operating services? I would be interested to see what DOR could do.

I completely agree, East Coast are quite possibly the best TOC. They still have delays regularly but most are at the fault of Network Rail.

They utilise almost all of their stock with only 2 sets on depot at one point (I think it's two feel free to correct me).

Their First Class is great, although I'm a fussy eater so a lot of the food doesn't appeal to me.

As for renationalisation of the whole network, it simply wouldn't work. It would firstly cost an absolute bomb, secondly it would be too much of a farce to setup. The Government would need to pay off the current TOC's who are running franchises, they would need to then pay for a load of new staff to run things behind-the-scenes. Frontline staff would remain but they would need a new uniform. I was talking with a local Labour MP about it last year when (I think Labour) one of the parties was saying they would bring back British Rail. He said it would be ridiculous, and that it would cost at least £6 Billion to do. He also said that when the Government (like right now) has no money to invest, the system would degrade.

DOR aren't a long term replacement, they just hold the franchise until the franchise goes up for renewal. They are already doing too much for the ECML, not that that's a bad thing of course!

 

[DeeGee]

DOR aren't a long term replacement, they just hold the franchise until the franchise goes up for renewal. They are already doing too much for the ECML, not that that's a bad thing of course!

Tell you what. If the new franchisee for ECML has to offer more than what DOR are at the moment, I'll be more than happy with that!

 

[cjmillsnun]

I completely agree, East Coast are quite possibly the best TOC. They still have delays regularly but most are at the fault of Network Rail.

They utilise almost all of their stock with only 2 sets on depot at one point (I think it's two feel free to correct me).

Their First Class is great, although I'm a fussy eater so a lot of the food doesn't appeal to me.

As for renationalisation of the whole network, it simply wouldn't work. It would firstly cost an absolute bomb, secondly it would be too much of a farce to setup. The Government would need to pay off the current TOC's who are running franchises, they would need to then pay for a load of new staff to run things behind-the-scenes. Frontline staff would remain but they would need a new uniform. I was talking with a local Labour MP about it last year when (I think Labour) one of the parties was saying they would bring back British Rail. He said it would be ridiculous, and that it would cost at least £6 Billion to do. He also said that when the Government (like right now) has no money to invest, the system would degrade.

DOR aren't a long term replacement, they just hold the franchise until the franchise goes up for renewal. They are already doing too much for the ECML, not that that's a bad thing of course!

Renationalisation needn't cost a bomb at all. It depends how it is done.

Yes you'd need to set up the administration part, but that could be piecemeal and be done as each franchise expires, rather than buy TOCs out of their franchise.

DOR could quite easily be a long term replacement.

 

[merlodlliw]

Renationalisation needn't cost a bomb at all. It depends how it is done.

Yes you'd need to set up the administration part, but that could be piecemeal and be done as each franchise expires, rather than buy TOCs out of their franchise.

DOR could quite easily be a long term replacement.

remember ATW & Scotrail come under different Governments now,so rule them out from Westminster.

 

[wbbminerals]

I see no reason to renationalise East Coast. Well, actually, I do: Tory ideology. Shame they don't seem to realise that "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

 

[kylemore]

"Rescue"?

What a typically emotive and incorrect word from the master of such hysterical press releases.

I'm no fan of Bob Crow but what he says on this is spot on.

The sooner First Group are history the better!

 

[43074]

The sooner First Group are history the better!

They haven't been *that* bad on Great Western. Many of their faults are down to the DfT, like not having enough carriages since the order for 2000 diesel carriages was cancelled in 2008 (?). I'll be glad to see the back of First Group on Thameslink & Great Northern though.


I really don't see why there is a hurry to privatise East Coast. They have been very good, especially when compared to their predecessor National Express East Coast.

 

[swt_passenger]

Railway Eye gives this story the treatment here:

http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/great-western-franchise-dor-activated.html

So nothing new really, this could happen with any or every franchise extension in the current climate...

 

[SkinnyDave]

Could this not just be a negotiating tactic by the DFT?

 

[swt_passenger]

No, it is just normal practice - DfT taking sensible precautions, and RMT are just using it to stir things up as if it is different for the GW...

 

[Pumbaa]

Railway Eye gives this story the treatment here:

http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/great-western-franchise-dor-activated.html

So nothing new really, this could happen with any or every franchise extension in the current climate...

Quite. Move along, nothing to see here.

 

[cjp]

£6 Billion[/B] to do. He also said that when the Government (like right now) has no money to invest, the system would degrade.

This is just not true
If the will was there to stop putting profits into big business then as a franchise comes to an end, for whatever reason, Direct Operated Railways take it over with no premium payable.
Staffing is no problem as TUPE will apply.
Uniforms are trivial in the short term.

Some lines may well still require support but there would be no percentage of that support going for private shareholders' dividends.

What is actually happening is Cameron's gang wish to re-privatise DOR East Coast so the profit it is reporting goes to his Private Buisiness Pals rather than to all to us, the tax payer.

Think carefully before you vote in 2015.

 

[Railsigns]

As for renationalisation of the whole network, it simply wouldn't work. It would firstly cost an absolute bomb, secondly it would be too much of a farce to setup [set up]. The Government would need to pay off the current TOC's who are running franchises, they would need to then pay for a load of new staff to run things behind-the-scenes. Frontline staff would remain but they would need a new uniform. I was talking with a local Labour MP about it last year when (I think Labour) one of the parties was saying they would bring back British Rail. He said it would be ridiculous, and that it would cost at least £6 Billion to do. He also said that when the Government (like right now) has no money to invest, the system would degrade.

£6 billion to renationalise the railways sounds like a bargain and would be money well spent. If you think £6 billion is 'an absolute bomb', just bear in mind that this is how much of our money the government pours into the privatised rail industry every single year, compared to the £1 billion British Rail managed with. The government subsidises the rail industry by this amount not because it wants to but because the fragmented privatised industry requires that much money to function.

Remember how the Tory government in the 1990s repeatedly claimed that privatising British Rail would result in a better deal for taxpayers? That's the real farce. That £6 billion spent renationalising the railways now, as a one-off cost, would pay for itself within about two years, after which we'd be saving billions of pounds of taxpayers' money each and every year beyond, for ourselves and future generations. Even if the true cost of renationalisation is higher, there will be huge savings to be had after just a few years. Or have the British people lost the ability to plan ahead for long term advantage?

 

[Morgsie]

Problem with the dreaded R word is that you have to pay the shareholders

 

[tbtc]

I'm no fan of Bob Crow but what he says on this is spot on.

The sooner First Group are history the better!

Go on then, I'll bite, what have First Group done so badly on the GWML franchise?

(since we can't blame them for DfT decisions over stock etc or the state of the rails or IEP!)

 

[6Gman]

Problem with the dreaded R word is that you have to pay the shareholders

Renationalising at the end of franchises wouldn't involve any payments to shareholders.

 

[Michael.Y]

Problem with the dreaded R word is that you have to pay the shareholders

No you don't. Shares go down as well as up. It happened with Railtrack, it can happen again.

 

[Railsigns]

Problem with the dreaded R word is that you have to pay the shareholders

The problem with privatisation is that you have to pay the shareholders.

 

[island]

I see no reason to renationalise East Coast. Well, actually, I do: Tory ideology. Shame they don't seem to realise that "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

Renationalise? East Coast is already nationalised...

 

[Eagle]

Renationalisation needn't cost a bomb at all. It depends how it is done.

Yes you'd need to set up the administration part, but that could be piecemeal and be done as each franchise expires, rather than buy TOCs out of their franchise.

DOR could quite easily be a long term replacement.

So under your scheme, all the TOCs are state-owned, but the rail infrastructure is still owned by a private company (Network Rail)? Sounds a bit of a silly way to do it.

Anyone know what it would cost for the Government to buy up Network Rail and all its billions of pounds' worth of debts?