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Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

CBlue

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I think they very much will be. To most travellers, 317s are quite visibly ancient.
Exactly. I remember travelling on 317s 15 years ago and they were starting to feel a bit tired then. I think most passengers will board a 720 and be rather delighted that the new trains not only have air con but don't leak like sieves like some of the 317 fleet do. The unrefurbished ones are nothing short of rancid, with seat springs that dig into your backside and a horrible damp dog smell.

But apparently they're better than 720s....?:s
 
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Ianno87

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Exactly. I remember travelling on 317s 15 years ago and they were starting to feel a bit tired then. I think most passengers will board a 720 and be rather delighted that the new trains not only have air con but don't leak like sieves like some of the 317 fleet do. The unrefurbished ones are nothing short of rancid, with seat springs that dig into your backside and a horrible damp dog smell.

But apparently they're better than 720s....?:s

Yes, the unrefurbished 317 seats are truly awful. But, you know, nostalgia 'n' all that...
 

southern442

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I doubt they'll make 'express' versions of the units with armrests and wider seats etc. because that's what the 745s are for. If they're growing the 745 fleet on the GEML by moving the Stansted units across permanently, then there's even less reason to do it.
The reason amongst some posters on here (and probably a decent chunk of the travelling public too) is that whilst the GEML fasts to Norwich would still be all 2+2 intercity style, and the rest 2+3 (leaving no change from the 90/Mk3 and 321/360 era), on the West Anglia route it will be a different story, as Stansted and Cambridge services would be losing the intercity 2+2 379s for 3+2 720s. So whilst the Aventras are very much a step up from the 317s, they are inevitably going to be a step down from the 379s.
 

Astro_Orbiter

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Yes, the Hertford's main business comes from between Cheshunt and Tottenham, its a shame
The Hertford east service used to be great. In peak non stop from broxbourne to Tottenham Hale and Liverpool St. off peak get a Cambridge train to Broxbourne and change to the branch train that had come via seven sisters. They then changed it to the current garbage all stations around 10-12 years ago. Was chaos when they first introduced in the peak with overcrowding then they amended peak to go semi fast via Edmonton
I don't know how they can work it all out any better really, maybe add a 3rd service that calls all stations between HFE and CHN then fast to Tottenham and then Hackney/London. If Crossrail 2 ever happens the idea was to quad track from Tottenham to Broxbourne, but that'll be years off. Sorry for off topic
 

Roger B

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The reason amongst some posters on here (and probably a decent chunk of the travelling public too) is that whilst the GEML fasts to Norwich would still be all 2+2 intercity style, and the rest 2+3 (leaving no change from the 90/Mk3 and 321/360 era), on the West Anglia route it will be a different story, as Stansted and Cambridge services would be losing the intercity 2+2 379s for 3+2 720s. So whilst the Aventras are very much a step up from the 317s, they are inevitably going to be a step down from the 379s.
Thanks Southern442. My comparison with 317s was meant tongue in cheek, but my main point was about comparison with 379s - from which the 720s are a big step-down.
 

TheHSRailFan

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Everything today seems to have gone swimmingly!:D

Sawa tweet and the thread get active about it so I rushed down to Hertford. A bit tight on money at the moment so I oystered from Hertford East to Cheshunt. So far I really like them, I've only been on them once 1 other time and today was a definite must for me. So far ranking 317s, 379s and 720s. They are a HUGE step up from the 317s but I like the 379s better, to be honest. Overall a really nice train and hopefully things are going to go smoothly. Just need to wait for the works on the branch now to start.
PXL_20210825_140034688.jpgPXL_20210825_140137609.jpgPXL_20210825_140211754.jpgPXL_20210825_140521720.jpgPXL_20210825_142926920.jpg
 

Bikeman78

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720s will be a mixed blessing - loads of infrastructure work needed at Hert East, Ware and St Margarets before 10 cars can run there, and no visibility on when it will be done. Meantime peak services will be very sweaty with 5 cars only.
I've seen footage of the 1612 to Hertford East. It looks rather full. Not really a PR win putting out new trains that are shorter than the old ones. Wouldn't it be better to put them on other routes where 10 cars can run at peak times?

Yes, the unrefurbished 317 seats are truly awful. But, you know, nostalgia 'n' all that...
Hornsey looked after their 12 to a reasonable standard. I'd have to agree that the remaining GA units are sinking almost to Connex levels of neglect. There's about a one in three chance that the only toilet will be locked out of use. The seats are now held together by cable ties. Several units are missing doors at the end of the coaches. Hard to believe that they are based at the same depot as the 315s. Presumably not maintained by the same people?
 
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cnjb8

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I've seen footage of the 1612 to Hertford East. It looks rather full. Not really a PR win putting out new trains that are shorter than the old ones. Wouldn't it be better to put them on other routes where 10 cars can run at peak times?


Hornsey looked after their 12 to a reasonable standard. I'd have to agree that the remaining GA units are sinking almost to Connex levels of neglect. There's about a one in three chance that the only toilet will be locked out of use. The seats are now held together by cable ties. Several units are missing doors at the end of the coaches. Hard to believe that they are based at the same depot as the 315s. Presumably not maintained by the same people?
If (and I’m not sure) they can sit more people, does it matter if they are shorter?
 

Bikeman78

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If (and I’m not sure) they can sit more people, does it matter if they are shorter?
I suppose not, so long as there is sufficient legroom. But once you run out of seats then clearly a train that is 40m shorter will have less space for the standees.
 

MCR247

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379s also seem to be on the route a lot at the moment, an 8 car formation would offer quite a bit of standing space
 

hwl

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Potentially silly question which might have been answered along time ago:

Did the proposed tip down seats in the vestibules at the design stage ever get fitted?
 

iphone76

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Potentially silly question which might have been answered along time ago:

Did the proposed tip down seats in the vestibules at the design stage ever get fitted?
Yes. They are present, although most have "do not use" stickers on after Covid.

Hornsey looked after their 12 to a reasonable standard. I'd have to agree that the remaining GA units are sinking almost to Connex levels of neglect. There's about a one in three chance that the only toilet will be locked out of use. The seats are now held together by cable ties. Several units are missing doors at the end of the coaches. Hard to believe that they are based at the same depot as the 315s. Presumably not maintained by the same people?
I think the TfL style concession and associated fines, help focus minds to keep the 315s in good condition.
 

Bikeman78

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I think the TfL style concession and associated fines, help focus minds to keep the 315s in good condition.
It seems to work! The 315s are gleaming. Very few creaks or rattles. Even the exterior paint is cleaner than the 317s/379s. How long will it take for the 720s to get grubby and dilapidated?
 

dk1

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It seems to work! The 315s are gleaming. Very few creaks or rattles. Even the exterior paint is cleaner than the 317s/379s. How long will it take for the 720s to get grubby and dilapidated?
Stadler fleet is clean & shiny.
 

jfowkes

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Got the 0728 from Whittlesford to Cambridge today.

First impressions: Wow, the aisle is narrow. Large people or people with luggage are going to really struggle to move through the train. I had a small shoulder bag and it was difficult. It's definitely been designed with commuters in mind.

The bike spaces are decidedly average. A poor showing compared to the 745s. They're shared with tip up seats means that inevitably cyclists will have to annoy people by moving them.

Also they have pedal holder things which are, in my opinion, unhelpful. They just get in the way.
 

Class 170101

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If (and I’m not sure) they can sit more people, does it matter if they are shorter?

I suppose not, so long as there is sufficient legroom. But once you run out of seats then clearly a train that is 40m shorter will have less space for the standees.

Good point, those 2+3 seats won’t help

First impressions: Wow, the aisle is narrow. Large people or people with luggage are going to really struggle to move through the train. I had a small shoulder bag and it was difficult. It's definitely been designed with commuters in mind.

One hopes the commuters return but I can't see it with all the home working now bedding in after 18 months. Of course if they don't these people movers might need to be refreshed to allow greater aisle access and fewer seats and more space between them
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Got the 0728 from Whittlesford to Cambridge today.

First impressions: Wow, the aisle is narrow. Large people or people with luggage are going to really struggle to move through the train. I had a small shoulder bag and it was difficult. It's definitely been designed with commuters in mind.
700's have been designed with commuters in mind these devices have been designed to fulfil the criteria that you have a seat for longer journeys no matter it will be cramped and feel like your on a charter flight or worse without armrests. Dwell time will be pushed up due to narrow aisle but never mind it has the oomph to make up time between stations albeit using extra energy.
 

Bletchleyite

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700's have been designed with commuters in mind these devices have been designed to fulfil the criteria that you have a seat for longer journeys no matter it will be cramped and feel like your on a charter flight or worse without armrests. Dwell time will be pushed up due to narrow aisle but never mind it has the oomph to make up time between stations albeit using extra energy.

700s have been designed for fast boarding and alighting with very high standing loads, and they do that well.

You could have a very similar thing by removing the third seat on the 3 side in a 720. Does anyone know if the cantilever support extends under the third seat? It's hard to see for certain from photos online but it doesn't look like it does. If not this might potentially be a relatively easy job, as was done on e.g. Merseyrail 507/508s in the 90s.

If you did that (and removed the tip-ups) a 5-car would cope better with a standing load, and thus some trains could be shortened, saving costs.
 

jfowkes

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If you did that (and removed the tip-ups) a 5-car would cope better with a standing load, and thus some trains could be shortened, saving costs.

Don't we want to be adding capacity rather than removing it though? The long-term aim must still be to get more people on the railways...
 

KC1

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Don't we want to be adding capacity rather than removing it though? The long-term aim must still be to get more people on the railways...
A lot of people are short term thinking, having that thought process that because of the pandemic, train travel will never be the same again (in terms of volumes of people).

Wrong. It will be.

Maybe not this year or not even next but it will. Look back into history and see what happened in the 60s and into the 70s and 80s. Worked well didn’t it.
 

Kite159

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Don't we want to be adding capacity rather than removing it though? The long-term aim must still be to get more people on the railways...
3+2 is great on paper at all those seats it provides

In practice a good number of people will prefer to stand than to squeeze into the middle seat, or on a 720 prefer to stand rather than trying to make their way down the narrow aisles to reach a seat.
 

dk1

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A lot of people are short term thinking, having that thought process that because of the pandemic, train travel will never be the same again (in terms of volumes of people).

Wrong. It will be.

Maybe not this year or not even next but it will. Look back into history and see what happened in the 60s and into the 70s and 80s. Worked well didn’t it.
Always going to get the doom mongers. They give people like me something to laugh at.
 

Adrian1980uk

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Commuting is basically dead. You won't attract discretionary travel with poor comfort levels.
Not convinced, knowing how bosses tend to think about work from home and speaking to people, I think it will be more of a hybrid system where office is 3 days a week rather than the full 5. The railways will need to adjust their season tickets to suit. Time will tell.

Agreed you won't attract discretionary travel with poor comfort levels.
 

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