GWR Class 800

[ExTankieAaron]

Fair point, but - you can have a dozen or so people stand in the buffet area on HSTs, so in rush hour usually you'll get a load of suits make a beeline for it so at least they can get a drink on their way home.

Will be a bit awkward on the new units as they'll have to find the part of the train the trolley has been hemmed into and try and stand as close as possible! Unless there's a place near the kitchen area perhaps, where the trolley (and some punters) could stand?

The kitchen on car 5 (1st class) has no waiting it's purely at your seat service.
All the GWR unless the 802 has a buffet car is at your seat catering.
Virgin with 801s have buffets.

 

[broadgage]

Fair point, but - you can have a dozen or so people stand in the buffet area on HSTs, so in rush hour usually you'll get a load of suits make a beeline for it so at least they can get a drink on their way home.

Will be a bit awkward on the new units as they'll have to find the part of the train the trolley has been hemmed into and try and stand as close as possible! Unless there's a place near the kitchen area perhaps, where the trolley (and some punters) could stand?

The kitchen on the new trains is in the driving vehicle at the first class end. I can not imagine standing around a static trolley being allowed there.
In practice I expect a static trolley that will run out of the more popular items by Reading.
And of course on a 5+5 train, the trolley will be in the other portion.

 

[deltic08]

Surely, a HST is a HST and a Voyager is a Voyager no matter who operates it - despite the Voyager name originally coming from Virgin. I think that these new Hitachi express trains should have a single common name.

I agree and definitely NOT Azuma.

 

[deltic08]

As the spec was put together by an Civil Service committee. Why not call it a "Camel" after all what is a camel but a horse designed by a committee.

or an elephant as that was designed by the same committee.

 

[IanXC]

I feel like lots of people are making two assumptions here, which I am far from convinced are valid:

(a) there is only going to be 1 trolley on a 5+5 set. There are plenty of operators who have trolleys on 3 and 4 car sets so I am far from convinced it would not be worth having two.
(b) another option, who is to say that we will not be able to order a more extensive menu from an app and have it delivered at seat? If the kitchen is able to do Pullman dining then surely at seat hot options are very doable.

 

[spark001uk]

I think there'll be a bit of moaning from the commuters when they've no way of purchasing and standing having a drink, or indeed getting to a trolley. As for me personally I'm not travelling that way enough in rush hour, and doesn't really matter to me.
They'll have to get a drink before boarding I guess won't they!

 

[Kentish Paul]

I don't think military themes have any place on the railway.

That is your view sir. If it wasn't for the Military you wouldn't be here today.
The defence of the realm is the first priority of any government.
The railway kept the military runnig during two world wars. They have every right to have "themes" on todays railway.

 

[najaB]

That is your view sir. If it wasn't for the Military you wouldn't be here today.
The defence of the realm is the first priority of any government.
The railway kept the military runnig during two world wars. They have every right to have "themes" on todays railway.

Well said. I'm neither militaristic nor jingoistic but I think that the men and women who put their lives on the line in defence of the rest of us have earned our respect. An occasional reminder of what they have sacrificed isn't a bad thing at all.

 

[broadgage]

I feel like lots of people are making two assumptions here, which I am far from convinced are valid:

(a) there is only going to be 1 trolley on a 5+5 set. There are plenty of operators who have trolleys on 3 and 4 car sets so I am far from convinced it would not be worth having two.
(b) another option, who is to say that we will not be able to order a more extensive menu from an app and have it delivered at seat? If the kitchen is able to do Pullman dining then surely at seat hot options are very doable.

As regards (a) I suspect that a trolley in each portion will be promised initially but will gradually become an aspiration, and then a hope and then something that is nice to have but that does not really matter.
Trolley provision seems to be rather hit and miss on other operators that have down graded to trolley only catering.

As regards (b) I suspect that something like this will be trialled but will be steadily downgraded and then abandoned as being too complex.
And what about the passenger who has obtained a table seat, has ordered food, but then been told to stand because the seat has been reserved whilst they were sitting in it.
Or even if they have been ordered to move to another seat perhaps in a different carriage, how is the trolley operative to find them.
What if after the food has been ordered, the train gets too full for the trolley to deliver it.

 

[ainsworth74]

(b) another option, who is to say that we will not be able to order a more extensive menu from an app and have it delivered at seat? If the kitchen is able to do Pullman dining then surely at seat hot options are very doable.

I believe that when Virgin won the ICEC franchise they stated that that was one of their plans for enhancing the on-board catering offer.

And what about the passenger who has obtained a table seat, has ordered food, but then been told to stand because the seat has been reserved whilst they were sitting in it.

Where and when was it announced that GWR would be introducing ten minute reservations a la XC?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Regarding military themes. If it was not for the sacrifice of our soldiers in past wars we would not be able to express any opinion. There has long been a military connection with the railways so its more a case of why not.

Regarding train catering. I am immune because many years ago I had a few experiences of cancelled buffet services even though advertised on the departure board. We once got an earlier train than planned preferring to eat on the train rather than at the station - but only minutes into the journey the announcement came that there was to be no buffet service. Since then we buy a loaf of bread, cheese spread and sliced ham/chicken. The resulting sandwich is fresher and a lot cheaper. I do not believe in paying a premium for something so unreliable. Mind you I now travel by coach more than I used to because it is far far cheaper. Coach is also quicker and more comfortable anyway than the possible replacement bus service !.

 

[BestWestern]

I feel like lots of people are making two assumptions here, which I am far from convinced are valid:

(a) there is only going to be 1 trolley on a 5+5 set. There are plenty of operators who have trolleys on 3 and 4 car sets so I am far from convinced it would not be worth having two.
(b) another option, who is to say that we will not be able to order a more extensive menu from an app and have it delivered at seat? If the kitchen is able to do Pullman dining then surely at seat hot options are very doable.

Pullman services operate with a dedicated chef, and receive a sizeable delivery of fresh food to create the menu. Neither of those components are likely to become part of the regular service provision on non-Pullman runs.

I expect that a trolley will be routinely provided in both halves of a 5+5.

 

[ExTankieAaron]

what is the criteria the 80x class trains fulfilled to be able to run without the yellow front?
Rumour had it on here Virgin are going with a red front which I can say is highly unlikely but Trans pennine are having a black front to theirs.

 

[najaB]

what is the criteria the 80x class trains fulfilled to be able to run without the yellow front?

High intensity lights. As specified in 1302/2014/EU Locomotives and passenger rolling stock (LOC & PAS) TSI which is implemented as Railway Group Standard GM/RT2131 Audibility and Visibility of Trains.

 

[Mordac]

Will it be the same services currently offering Pullman dining that will retain it on the new regime?

 

[broadgage]

----------

Where and when was it announced that GWR would be introducing ten minute reservations a la XC?

Posters displayed at Taunton station and presumably elsewhere listed the advantages of the new trains including.

"At seat catering offer available to all passengers" i.e. downgrade to a trolley only.
"An improved electronic seat reservation system that will allow reservations shortly before travel" I do not recall any specific mention of "ten minute" but "shortly before travel" does imply AFTER the train has left its origin in the case of passengers boarding at Taunton, the location of the posters.

 

[broadgage]

Will it be the same services currently offering Pullman dining that will retain it on the new regime?

There is a franchise commitment to retain a certain limited number of Pullman services.
I am not aware of any requirement as to on which particular services dining will be provided.
It seems a reasonable assumption the 18-03 and 19-03 from Paddington will retain Pullmans since these are very popular.
That implies retention of two up Pullmans at suitable times for the Plymouth based restaurant crew to work an up train, have a break and then work the 1803 or the 19-03 from London.

In the longer term of course, timetables may be altered, but I would still hope that at least two evening peak services retain proper restaurants.
The Golden Hind used to depart a little earlier than 18-03 IIRC.

I hope that GWR manage to diagram a full length train for Pullman services, I cant see it being viable on a pair of short DMUs coupled together, and certainly not on a single unit.
They have a rather patchy record WRT sending the correct type of HST at present.

 

[Mordac]

There is a franchise commitment to retain a certain limited number of Pullman services.
I am not aware of any requirement as to on which particular services dining will be provided.
It seems a reasonable assumption the 18-03 and 19-03 from Paddington will retain Pullmans since these are very popular.
That implies retention of two up Pullmans at suitable times for the Plymouth based restaurant crew to work an up train, have a break and then work the 1803 or the 19-03 from London.

In the longer term of course, timetables may be altered, but I would still hope that at least two evening peak services retain proper restaurants.
The Golden Hind used to depart a little earlier than 18-03 IIRC.

I hope that GWR manage to diagram a full length train for Pullman services, I cant see it being viable on a pair of short DMUs coupled together, and certainly not on a single unit.
They have a rather patchy record WRT sending the correct type of HST at present.

I agree with you that the Plymouth trains you mention should retain it. I'm slightly less optimistic they will continue it on either of the two current South Wales services that carry it, if that's not a franchise requirement.

 

[Sirgerbil]

what is the criteria the 80x class trains fulfilled to be able to run without the yellow front?
Rumour had it on here Virgin are going with a red front which I can say is highly unlikely but Trans pennine are having a black front to theirs.

VTEC will be having a black front.

 

[222ben]

Has a VTEC livery been announced yet?

 

[jzw95]

"shortly before travel" does imply AFTER the train has left its origin in the case of passengers boarding at Taunton, the location of the posters.

I don't think it will be similar to CrossCountry, however. I seem to remember reading somewhere (a long time ago), that Hitachi have developed seat sensors which will determine whether someone is sitting in the seat (and can distinguish between a person and bags). If you sit in an unreserved seat, the system will block it off, and it won't be available for en-route reservations. I think it stays blocked off for some number of minutes after being vacated, to account for using the toilet, visiting the buffet, etc. That is my rough memory – someone here probably knows better.

 

[HowardGWR]

Why would they call a train that goes to the west-most station on the network an 'East'?

For when it's on the way back, from Penzance?

 

[47802]

I don't think it will be similar to CrossCountry, however. I seem to remember reading somewhere (a long time ago), that Hitachi have developed seat sensors which will determine whether someone is sitting in the seat (and can distinguish between a person and bags). If you sit in an unreserved seat, the system will block it off, and it won't be available for en-route reservations. I think it stays blocked off for some number of minutes after being vacated, to account for using the toilet, visiting the buffet, etc. That is my rough memory – someone here probably knows better.

Well lets hope that's the case and it works, because the XC system is absolute disgrace.

 

[Fuzzytop]

VTEC will be having a black front.

The renders I've seen have the black on VTEC covering the same area as in the proposed design for the TransPennine units. A shame to see the back of yellow, but I think black will look less gaudy on the 800s, particularly if the production design keeps a similar look to the mockup VTEC livery they launched last year.

Re. the abovementioned TPE units, I note this year's long-term passenger rolling stock strategy denotes these as Class 803. Is this a thing?
https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/f...m_passenger_rolling_stock_strategy_5th_ed.pdf

 

[DerekC]

As the spec was put together by an Civil Service committee. Why not call it a "Camel" after all what is a camel but a horse designed by a committee.

The Japanese for camel is "Kyameru". I think that sounds rather good!

PS - the spec wasn't put together by a committee, it was put together by a (hitherto) respected firm of engineering consultants working for DfT.

 

[Bornin1980s]

The renders I've seen have the black on VTEC covering the same area as in the proposed design for the TransPennine units. A shame to see the back of yellow, but I think black will look less gaudy on the 800s, particularly if the production design keeps a similar look to the mockup VTEC livery they launched last year.

Re. the abovementioned TPE units, I note this year's long-term passenger rolling stock strategy denotes these as Class 803. Is this a thing?
https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/f...m_passenger_rolling_stock_strategy_5th_ed.pdf

I don't understand. All the renders and publicity images I've seen closely match the current Azuma prototype, with yellow ends.

I don't think black ends would look too good, unless they go for a small black nose. In the absence of yellow, why doesn't anyone just paint the ends body colour?

 

[broadgage]

The external livery is a long way down my list of concerns. Higher priorities include,

Will the trains be long enough ? I rather doubt it in the case of a half length new train in place of a full length HST.

Will the legroom be adequate ? Unlikely in my view, but we shall see.

Will there be a buffet ? confirmed as a NO.

Will there always be a trolley in both portions of a 5+5 train ? Unknown as yet.

Will the toilets be ample in number, reliable, and have large enough water supply and waste retention tanks ? unlikely based on experience of other new trains

Will cycle and luggage space be sufficient for long distance holiday traffic to the west country ? No way if compared to an HST in which bulky luggage can be, and is stowed in the power cars at peak times.

Will they feel like a proper inter city train ? most unlikely in my view, though I appreciate that this is very subjective and that some will like them.

The external livery that is largely unseen whilst travelling seems rather trivial in comparison.

 

[jimm]

The external livery is a long way down my list of concerns. Higher priorities include,

Will the trains be long enough ? I rather doubt it in the case of a half length new train in place of a full length HST.

Will the legroom be adequate ? Unlikely in my view, but we shall see.

Will there be a buffet ? confirmed as a NO.

Will there always be a trolley in both portions of a 5+5 train ? Unknown as yet.

Will the toilets be ample in number, reliable, and have large enough water supply and waste retention tanks ? unlikely based on experience of other new trains

Will cycle and luggage space be sufficient for long distance holiday traffic to the west country ? No way if compared to an HST in which bulky luggage can be, and is stowed in the power cars at peak times.

Will they feel like a proper inter city train ? most unlikely in my view, though I appreciate that this is very subjective and that some will like them.

The external livery that is largely unseen whilst travelling seems rather trivial in comparison.

Will you ever give the doom-mongering a rest?

Maybe you could at least try until October, when I expect we will be regaled with variations along the lines of 'I told you so', the instant something goes a tiny bit wrong on a GWR service.

How many more times are you going to repeat your fiction about there not being buffets? In case you haven't noticed, rather a lot of IEPs will be delivered with a buffet/shop - for East Coast services. There is a big wide world out there beyond the GWR network.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The renders I've seen have the black on VTEC covering the same area as in the proposed design for the TransPennine units. A shame to see the back of yellow, but I think black will look less gaudy on the 800s, particularly if the production design keeps a similar look to the mockup VTEC livery they launched last year.

Re. the abovementioned TPE units, I note this year's long-term passenger rolling stock strategy denotes these as Class 803. Is this a thing?
https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/f...m_passenger_rolling_stock_strategy_5th_ed.pdf

The 803 designation might be justified, actually. The 800s are the original IEP design, meant for limited diesel running off the core GWML and for ICEC extensions. The 802s are the sets designed for more intensive diesel-only service, including larger fuel tanks and no limiter on the engines. When the TPE order was announced, it was said that the trains will also have bigger resistor banks for rheostatic braking (which is when the motors are used for braking, like regenerative braking, but the energy is dissipated as heat on the roof of the train rather than being fed back into the non-existent overhead lines). If larger fuel tanks and a software tweak are enough to give the 802s their own class number, a slightly different rheostatic braking system might be enough to justify another number on top of that. It's not like the 8xx range is going to be filling up particularly quickly, isn't it?

 

[ExTankieAaron]

The external livery is a long way down my list of concerns. Higher priorities include,

Will the trains be long enough ? I rather doubt it in the case of a half length new train in place of a full length HST.

Will the legroom be adequate ? Unlikely in my view, but we shall see.

Will there be a buffet ? confirmed as a NO.

Will there always be a trolley in both portions of a 5+5 train ? Unknown as yet.

Will the toilets be ample in number, reliable, and have large enough water supply and waste retention tanks ? unlikely based on experience of other new trains

Will cycle and luggage space be sufficient for long distance holiday traffic to the west country ? No way if compared to an HST in which bulky luggage can be, and is stowed in the power cars at peak times.

Will they feel like a proper inter city train ? most unlikely in my view, though I appreciate that this is very subjective and that some will like them.

The external livery that is largely unseen whilst travelling seems rather trivial in comparison.

1. The 9car dwarfs anything else on the network. The 5 is huge and GWR will probably run as a 10 at peak times.

2. I'm 6ft I have loads of room in standard and first.

3. At the moment I can confirm 801 has buffet.

4. Is down to operator but seems suicidal not to have a trolley on both 5 car units in a 10.

5. Yeah there are plenty of toilets. 2 universal in each DPT then smaller ones like in MK4 down the length of the unit .
I'm not sure if I can give out figures but belive me their is plenty of water and room in waste.

I can't comment on the other two.

Lastly the GWR look good in their green and silver. Makes the 800 look smaller though.