GWR Cornish Night Riviera Sleeper and GWR Class 57 updates from Long Rock

[Charlie Smythe]

Is there any passenger information regarding the sleeper or does that specific data not exist/is not accessible?

 

[221129]

Is there any passenger information regarding the sleeper or does that specific data not exist/is not accessible?

In what sense?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Is there any passenger information regarding the sleeper or does that specific data not exist/is not accessible?

What is the point you're trying to make about the sleepers. Are you saying that the 57s are inadequate or perhaps there's no reason for an extra coach? Please could you elaborate?

 

[Energy]

What is the point you're trying to make about the sleepers. Are you saying that the 57s are inadequate or perhaps there's no reason for an extra coach? Please could you elaborate?

There isn't a need for the sleeper right now with covid 19 however when covid is no longer a problem the extra carriage(s) may be useful as the sleeper berths are becoming more popular.

 

[Ashley Hill]

There isn't a need for the sleeper right now with covid 19 however when covid is no longer a problem the extra carriage(s) may be useful as the sleeper berths are becoming more popular.

I'm aware of that.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

What is the point you're trying to make about the sleepers. Are you saying that the 57s are inadequate or perhaps there's no reason for an extra coach? Please could you elaborate?

In what sense?

Ashley Hill and 221129, I think it would be interesting to see how the usage in the past few years compares to lets say 15-20 years ago or maybe before that. Seeing as the sleepers future is often unfairly questioned when the franchise comes up for renewal, It would be good to see if those who wrongfully doubt it have any actual soild ground to stand on. In my opinion the sleeper is a very worth while; profitable operation that, from my limited expirance; seems to be a real credit to those who run it. I do not doubt the capability of the 57's and, as I have mentioned in my previous post, I feel as though they're perfectly suited to the current and future job that is asked of them. My previous posts about their ability to haul load 9+ were just inquisitive ones seeking information from those individuals work on/with them, of which there are many on this thread.

Ashley, without having passenger loading information I cannot comment on the need for an extra coach, but if those who manage the sleeper feel as though one can be justified based of off the demand; then in my opinion that can only be a good thing.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Interestingly if the suggestion of hiring 67s had ever come into fruition, whilst they are better on the flat, or on lighter gradients and have a 5mph advantage including better acceleration they are more risky in poor railhead conditions on heavy trains so in the days of often weekly Eden Project railtours 20 years ago 47s were often still favoured as a 67 had to be piloted from Exeter or restricted to about load 10/11 as per the Lickey and Old Hill in the Midlands plus created fuel worries as they are heavy drinkers when the train supply is in use. They also have slightly more sensitive train heat supply than 57s and 47s which is to protect the loco. Based on all of that 57s are probably the best of the remaining options to continue running the service, even at longer loads (which they can manage generally with ease), and at least that saves re-training drivers or hiring any in off third parties.

The 67's appeared to manage ok with the sleeper on the highland mainline which has a fair bit of climbing and poor rail conditions.

 

[co-tr-paul]

The last weekend of operation was originally fully booked, 5 SLEPs. In the event, it carried 24. The last figure I have of increase rate was a 1 extra in 10 for every journey compared to the previous year. That was early last summer.
57s will not change until early next long term franchise at earliest. Perhaps something bi-modal ?

 

[Charlie Smythe]

The last weekend of operation was originally fully booked, 5 SLEPs. In the event, it carried 24. The last figure I have of increase rate was a 1 extra in 10 for every journey compared to the previous year. That was early last summer.
57s will not change until early next long term franchise at earliest. Perhaps something bi-modal ?

While the idea of bi-mode locos whether it be diesel & battery or diesel & OHLE is a good one and would have benefits. I feel as though it has been discussed a lot on both this an other forums.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

The 67's appeared to manage ok with the sleeper on the highland mainline which has a fair bit of climbing and poor rail conditions.

What coach loading is that and what are the gradients along the route?

 

[47827]

What coach loading is that and what are the gradients along the route?

Usually load 8 on the Highland Mainline beds. They ended up working that job until October last year due to contracts seeing 1 less 73 available due to the mk5 training runs. The Highland Mainline is a taxing route in many ways (I've experienced it enough times and with up to 575 trailing load tonnes for 1 loco to pull) but I think there's a few steeper bits between Totnes and Plymouth even if most of the route between London and Penzance is flatter than the Highland ML.

Re: gradients. I think 1:60 is about the steepest the Highland Mainline gets which are the climb to Slochd in both directions (North from Aviemore via Carrbridge and south via Culloden, Moy and Tomatin leaving Inverness for circa 25 minutes on the sleeper). Other parts are about 1:70 or less steep such as the climbs up to Drumochter (going north is continuous for up to about 25 minutes for the sleeper). Devon has long continuous climbs steeper than 1:60 I'm fairly sure although I apologise I can't recall the precise gradients in both directions between Totnes to Plymouth.

Found this which confirmed my suspicions. 1:36 to 1:90 with several variations in between and a good amount steeper than 1:60 as I thought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Devon_Banks

 

[popeter45]

a strange ideas popped to mind for a 57 replacement, use the off-lease class 43's and top and tail to make a sleeper HST of sorts, as well as extra power for more coaches the storage at in each power car could be used as a luggage car

 

[pdeaves]

a strange ideas popped to mind for a 57 replacement, use the off-lease class 43's and top and tail to make a sleeper HST of sorts, as well as extra power for more coaches the storage at in each power car could be used as a luggage car

Either the power cars or the carriages would have to be rewired/re-engineered as HST vehicles are not electrically compatible with non-HST mark 3s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

a strange ideas popped to mind for a 57 replacement, use the off-lease class 43's and top and tail to make a sleeper HST of sorts, as well as extra power for more coaches the storage at in each power car could be used as a luggage car

I must admit that when I heard that the Plymouth portion was being dropped I expected this to happen, with a motor-alternator set in the van area of the power cars, and was quite surprised it didn't. The advantage would have been fleet commonality. Now there are far fewer HSTs this is not really the case any more, though.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Ashley Hill and 221129, I think it would be interesting to see how the usage in the past few years compares to lets say 15-20 years ago or maybe before that. Seeing as the sleepers future is often unfairly questioned when the franchise comes up for renewal, It would be good to see if those who wrongfully doubt it have any actual soild ground to stand on. In my opinion the sleeper is a very worth while; profitable operation that, from my limited expirance; seems to be a real credit to those who run it. I do not doubt the capability of the 57's and, as I have mentioned in my previous post, I feel as though they're perfectly suited to the current and future job that is asked of them. My previous posts about their ability to haul load 9+ were just inquisitive ones seeking information from those individuals work on/with them, of which there are many on this thread.

Ashley, without having passenger loading information I cannot comment on the need for an extra coach, but if those who manage the sleeper feel as though one can be justified based of off the demand; then in my opinion that can only be a good thing.

I think you’re labouring under a big misapprehension if you think the sleeper is profitable. It was only spared a few years ago from being dropped from the franchise requirement after a concerted campaign by those in the south west. (That was when the Plymouth portion was ended.) There is no doubt still a large subsidy implicit within the terms of the franchise and recent direct awards.

Your last paragraph seems to say that you don’t have any information on the subject but if the managers who run the service do and think it makes sense to increase capacity, then you do too. I’m not really quite sure what insight you think that adds to the discussion.

 

[Speed43125]

a strange ideas popped to mind for a 57 replacement, use the off-lease class 43's and top and tail to make a sleeper HST of sorts, as well as extra power for more coaches the storage at in each power car could be used as a luggage car

Ignoring the Voltage for a second, those are not a lot newer than 47s and like them have had an engine replacement in their lives. It's still not a long term solution, they are in effect life expired as they are, even if their numbers mean crew/fitter knowledge and spare parts are plentiful.
Sadly, until Siemens can fit a stage IIIb diesel in to the UK loading gauge, we are going to be in effect, short of good 100 mph diesels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ignoring the Voltage for a second, those are not a lot newer than 47s and like them have had an engine replacement in their lives. It's still not a long term solution, they are in effect life expired as they are, even if their numbers mean crew/fitter knowledge and spare parts are plentiful.
Sadly, until Siemens can fit a stage IIIb diesel in to the UK loading gauge, we are going to be in effect, short of good 100 mph diesels.

If we need to build any, the way to do it is probably a "DMU in a box" like the FLIRT power car, i.e. several engines, not one.

 

[43096]

If we need to build any, the way to do it is probably a "DMU in a box" like the FLIRT power car, i.e. several engines, not one.

Bombardier tried that with the TRAXX multi-engine locos in Germany (Class 245). It hasn’t gone very well...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bombardier tried that with the TRAXX multi-engine locos in Germany (Class 245). It hasn’t gone very well...

But then that's like saying that underfloor-engined 125mph DMUs are non-viable just because the Class 180 is rubbish.

 

[47827]

For now it's cheaper and less hassle to keep current traction on the sleepers than carry out the work to use hst power cars on them and indeed subsequently operating them afterwards. The only big advantage it would have offered is built in insurance against failures in every train and the ability to make time back easier if delays were ever significant. As neither of those issues tend to be more than an occasional problem and 57s are marginally more reliable than the generally sturdy previous fleet of 47s I don't see any major case for changing anything on the operation within at least the next few years unless other factors change. If there comes a time when the carriages have to replaced beyond the next 5-10 years that is probably the best time to consider what should haul the trains going forward.

The history of the service is such that Cornish politicians have always been instrumental in its survival since BR days. Its been useful to MP's for the area for getting to and from Westminster but also it is seen to aid tourists visiting the area and the Cornish business communities in providing a useful link for both and avoiding them wasting waking hours of the day making the journey and using it in lieu of a hotel at either end. It's never been profitable for the rail firms except during heavily loaded dates mostly in high season. Essentially loco hauled trains have to be quite long to make them more profitable than dmu operations (or profitable in any form) so the lengthening idea in summer time would help subsidise the operation during low season.

 

[317362]

Swap of coaches/engines today it seems, daytime up and down empties via Newbury. 57604 down and I think 57603 up.

 

[gazthomas]

If we need to build any, the way to do it is probably a "DMU in a box" like the FLIRT power car, i.e. several engines, not one.

What's wrong with 68s?

 

[47827]

What's wrong with 68s?

Not much if you wanted something newer, a bit more reliable and nippy than the current locos and they were offered up. Just then the driver training costs, time/hassle involved and whatever leasing costs were involved that would come into it.

 

[BrianW]

I could be wrong but ...
Out of my window between Plymouth and Devonport I thought I saw a diesel loco hauled rake of 4-6 sleeping cars all in GWR livery heading west at lunchtime today?
I think the Sleeper stopped last month re Covid.

 

[43096]

I could be wrong but ...
Out of my window between Plymouth and Devonport I thought I saw a diesel loco hauled rake of 4-6 sleeping cars all in GWR livery heading west at lunchtime today?
I think the Sleeper stopped last month re Covid.

You’re not wrong! There’s been a swap over of sets between Reading and Penzance today with one up and one down.

 

[BRX]

Not much if you wanted something newer, a bit more reliable and nippy than the current locos and they were offered up. Just then the driver training costs, time/hassle involved and whatever leasing costs were involved that would come into it.

What's wrong with 68s is that they can't comply with emissions regs, isn't it?

 

[47827]

What's wrong with 68s is that they can't comply with emissions regs, isn't it?

Perhaps if you were building them right this minute. There's 30 odd of them already built though and a few could probably be released off freight work in the medium term if the right deal was struck. I'm guessing traction training might be as bad as 3 to 4 weeks or so in duration per driver, with the need to train dozens of drivers in total presumably at London, Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance all of which cover various duties including shunting and prep on the depot at either end. Factoring that in for the next few years there is no case to switch to 68s that I could make.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Here we go again. How many pages in this thread have been repeats of the HST/67/68 thing ? Fed up of repeating the reasons why they are NOT happening.
As the O.P. can I ask people to actually use the search function so we don't cover the same things time and time again ? This thread is now more about CURRENT happenings.
I know its a pain nowadays to actually do research into a question before posting one but the facilities are there and they are supposed make life easier.
Some regular followers of this thread may have noticed that I don't respond much any more unless its current. Try the speculative section.
In the mean time, I again repeat, its 57s and current stock until announcements as part of next long term franchise. Rant over.
Set swap to allow heavy cleaning to be done although thats a staff bain of contention regarding is it important at the moment regarding staying safe/reduced working etc. Shan't go there as this thread is not about politics either. Still planned for a May return to service but obviously may change. Still hopeful of increase in train length as originally planned too.
Keep safe and do the right thing.
P.S
Our condolences to all at Reading from the train prep team at Long Rock.

 

[irish_rail]

Well Plymouth men are being made to lose 57 knowledge, the only rationale I can see to this is an upcoming change of traction and thus fewer depots to train up on the new traction. Extremely short sighted that should the down arrive at Exeter and no driver be available , one will need to come from Penzance in future! In the middle of the night. Madness.....

 

[Helvellyn]

Well Plymouth men are being made to lose 57 knowledge, the only rationale I can see to this is an upcoming change of traction and thus fewer depots to train up on the new traction. Extremely short sighted that should the down arrive at Exeter and no driver be available , one will need to come from Penzance in future! In the middle of the night. Madness.....

Or there is less work now the summer service with the day coaches has gone and no need for the occasional move of HST trailers, so reducing the number of depots signing the 57s makes traction knowledge retention easier.