GWR withdraw some 800's due to cracks (ORR Report now published)

[irish_rail]

And I hate to bang on about it, but quite simply if the west of England line had been all 9 car units from day one, then we would not be suffering all these ridiculous short forms.
Yes there may have been some additional cancellations elsewhere of quieter services but the core intercity routes would keep full length trains. The idea that the main London to Cornwall line is suffering from 5 car sets at this time of year is frankly absurd.

Hypothetically, had GWR gone for all 9 car units and no 5s , with the cracking crisis then we would probably be hiring sets in from whoever in order to run the service. And would that really be such a bad thing? Couple of hired in long HSTs? Would passengers really be worse off than they are now, being crammed onto a 5 car set full and standing for 4 hours or more.....

 

[HST274]

And I hate to bang on about it, but quite simply if the west of England line had been all 9 car units from day one, then we would not be suffering all these ridiculous short forms.
Yes there may have been some additional cancellations elsewhere of quieter services but the core intercity routes would keep full length trains. The idea that the main London to Cornwall line is suffering from 5 car sets at this time of year is frankly absurd.

Hypothetically, had GWR gone for all 9 car units and no 5s , with the cracking crisis then we would probably be hiring sets in from whoever in order to run the service. And would that really be such a bad thing? Couple of hired in long HSTs? Would passengers really be worse off than they are now, being crammed onto a 5 car set full and standing for 4 hours or more.....

Especially when you have 9 cars on the lesser used cotswolds line... that were meant to be 5 cars...

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I've heard this noise in driving carriages, as well as motor carriages without engines on 801s, so it can't be the engines.

No idea then, could be banging bogies or anything really.

I've seen some sagging already on some of the TPE 802s, both on intermediate and driving carriages.

Really? No surpise. If the trailer cars are sagging then that's doens't say great things about the strength of the frames.

The vast majority of contracts aren't written in a way that allows either party to just pull out and no doubt this is no exception, though if Agility remain consistently unable to deliver then there must surely be legal grounds to terminate the contract on that basis. Likewise if they're continuing to suffer large penalty payments for it, Agility may well decide it's no longer worthwhile for them and try to terminate the contract themselves. Either way, if this saga carries on much longer and no drastic improvements are made to reliability then there would be very little benefit to either party for the contract to remain in place.

Then what? You have hundreds of carraiges that can no longer be in service cost millions of pounds a month and no one to take them on. If the IEP contract collapses then that would be a disaster. Neither party will want to pull out first because the other will sue, with good reason as both Agility and the DfT have a right to be angry. Personally though, I would place most of the blame on the DfT.

Unless a new major safety issue was found with them (lets hope not), the 80xs would remain in service until replacements were built. Of course this is much easier for LNER who are already looking for new build units to replace the 91+Mark 4 sets than it is for GWR.

If LNER order more 80x series units then they're off their heads. Anyone sensible would wait until the issues have been ironed out. The reality is that every operator that has ordered a class 80x series train since the IEP contract (including GWR with their 802's) did so not because they were good trains, but because they could get a cheap ish tag along order to a production line that was already well underway. The timescale isn't always the most important consideration. I refer back to OBB's cancellation of the Talent 3 order, of course the quicker option would have been to let Alstom get the fleet into some sort of semi-reliable condition, but that was not the best outcome for the operator nor the travelling public, therefore wasn't taken forward.

The links between DFT and Agility Trains (as well as between the DFT and Hitachi) are definitely worth further investigation. A quick look on companies house a while back suggested there may have been a few conflicts of interest...

I have read about this before and of course there was, there always is regardless of the scale.

Not even 3 years for the 801s and the (non GWR) 802s! Unless Grand Central want them (who knows, they were mad enough to take the 180s!) I agree scrap is the most likely option.

They 80x series is very unlikely to go anywhere for at least 20+ years yet. My prediction is that once they contract runs out they're gone, no refurbishments, no extenions they will just be scrapped and that will be that.

Yeah cos CAFs recent products in UK have all been ultra-reliable and non-problematic huh....

It was a joke, but my point still stands. Train operators and the DfT seem to be brown nosing Hitachi when so far they haven't really proven thier worth.

 

[fgwrich]

They break down a lot more than you'd expect (The MTIN figures are fairly dire). The diesel generator units often conk out which leads to reduced performance. Various other restrictions placed on the units by Hitachi for servicing and even then availability is not where it should be.

They certainly do share their range of faults. I was traveling back on one of LNER's 9 car 800s last month from Scotland to Kings Cross. Upon leaving Edinburgh on Electric it was fine, but with nothing ahead of us, we were certainly reduced to a fairly low speed coming into Dunbar, we then left continuing in electric mode before shortly stopping again (with a number of alarms going off). After around 5 minutes or so and at least one reset, we then carried on our journey again in Diesel Mode. Coupled with a points failure along the route resulting in more lost time (and the same alarms were going off again), we certainly lost nearly an hour coming into Kings Cross. I'm led to believe the technical fault on that was a Dynamic Braking System Fault and that running it in Diesel Mode was the only way to allow it to continue in service, though it was switched back into Electric Mode later in the journey but all hope of making up time was lost by then!

At the expense of the company that screwed it up. These companies know they run these huge financial risks when doing such actions, if they didn't want to take the consequences they should never have signed the contracts in the first place.


I am not certain which is exactly why I used the words "may" and "suggested" rather than claiming it as fact. I was referring to the fact that there appear to have been, if I recall correctly, some directors that had been registered for both the DFT and Agility/Hitachi.

I was very simply saying it was worthy of some further investigation as there could potentially be a conflict of interest, I didn't claim it as fact.

Companies house is a public resource so feel free to look it up yourself.

If I am mistaken then I am happy to stand corrected and correct the record in my previous post.

I do recall many a mention of the then Transport Secretary Phillip Hammond being invited to a number of Japanese Tea Party's, conveniently hosted by the Japanese Ambassador to the UK. I wouldn't be highly surprised if, at the most convenient time when Mr Hammond's department was leading the procurement for a sizeable contract, a representative of Hitachi or two wasn't nearby at the time...

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Too be fair they are still pretty good at keeping to time even with one or even 2 engines out. They may lose a minute on Hemerdon however this is usually clawed back quickly.

This isn't because they're powerful or fast, but rather that the timings are slack. 1 engine out you should be losing time and if you're not it says a lot about your timings.

And I hate to bang on about it, but quite simply if the west of England line had been all 9 car units from day one, then we would not be suffering all these ridiculous short forms.
Yes there may have been some additional cancellations elsewhere of quieter services but the core intercity routes would keep full length trains. The idea that the main London to Cornwall line is suffering from 5 car sets at this time of year is frankly absurd.

Hypothetically, had GWR gone for all 9 car units and no 5s , with the cracking crisis then we would probably be hiring sets in from whoever in order to run the service. And would that really be such a bad thing? Couple of hired in long HSTs? Would passengers really be worse off than they are now, being crammed onto a 5 car set full and standing for 4 hours or more.....

All trains, other than very very off peak, to the West of England should be 9 cars.

All of the IEP and IET should have been 9 cars. 10 cars is grossly inefficient in terms of seats per metre of train and causes issues at Paignton meaning that only 5 and 9 cars can be used. Yes you do need some shorter sets but GWR are overloaded with 5 car sets which is inefficent as I said.

 

[DanNCL]

Then what? You have hundreds of carraiges that can no longer be in service cost millions of pounds a month and no one to take them on. If the IEP contract collapses then that would be a disaster. Neither party will want to pull out first because the other will sue, with good reason as both Agility and the DfT have a right to be angry. Personally though, I would place most of the blame on the DfT.

It's an incredibly poor and financially disastrous situation but that could be argued for if the saga is allowed to carry on too.

If LNER order more 80x series units then they're off their heads. Anyone sensible would wait until the issues have been ironed out. The reality is that every operator that has ordered a class 80x series train since the IEP contract (including GWR with their 802's) did so not because they were good trains, but because they could get a cheap ish tag along order to a production line that was already well underway.

From what I've heard suggested LNER may have seen sense on this one.

They 80x series is very unlikely to go anywhere for at least 20+ years yet. My prediction is that once they contract runs out they're gone, no refurbishments, no extenions they will just be scrapped and that will be that.

I'd be amazed if they last 20 years. Even most of Hitachi's Shinkansen fleets (which are much better built and more reliable than the 80xs) rarely last 20 years. Withdrawal of N700 series trains (some of which were built by Hitachi) have already began, with withdrawn examples often only being 12 years old.

I do recall many a mention of the then Transport Secretary Phillip Hammond being invited to a number of Japanese Tea Party's, conveniently hosted by the Japanese Ambassador to the UK. I would be highly surprised if, at the most convenient time when Mr Hammond's department was leading the procurement for a sizeable contract, a representative of Hitachi or two wasn't nearby at the time...

I've heard that one too. Seems a very unlikely coincidence.

 

[irish_rail]

This isn't because they're powerful or fast, but rather that the timings are slack. 1 engine out you should be losing time and if you're not it says a lot about your timings.


All trains, other than very very off peak, to the West of England should be 9 cars.

All of the IEP and IET should have been 9 cars. 10 cars is grossly inefficient in terms of seats per metre of train and causes issues at Paignton meaning that only 5 and 9 cars can be used. Yes you do need some shorter sets but GWR are overloaded with 5 car sets which is inefficent as I said.

Completely agree with everything you say. The lot south west passengers have been dealt is a terrible one. The odd short form , fine, but they are numerous and on a daily basis and were happening well before the cracking crisis. Whoever specified 22 x 5 cars and just 7 x 9 cars for the wofe should be sacked quite frankly.
The 10 car pairings, when they actually happen, are inefficient and ridiculously expensive in terms of staffing, not to mention the poorer passenger experience.

 

[Wolfie]

And I hate to bang on about it, but quite simply if the west of England line had been all 9 car units from day one, then we would not be suffering all these ridiculous short forms.
Yes there may have been some additional cancellations elsewhere of quieter services but the core intercity routes would keep full length trains. The idea that the main London to Cornwall line is suffering from 5 car sets at this time of year is frankly absurd.

Hypothetically, had GWR gone for all 9 car units and no 5s , with the cracking crisis then we would probably be hiring sets in from whoever in order to run the service. And would that really be such a bad thing? Couple of hired in long HSTs? Would passengers really be worse off than they are now, being crammed onto a 5 car set full and standing for 4 hours or more.....

HSTs hired in from where?

 

[fgwrich]

HSTs hired in from where?

Well, at this rate, ScotRail would almost be a good bet if next years cuts come to fruition...

(a tongue in cheek post)

 

[irish_rail]

HSTs hired in from where?

Well seeing as this is a medium term problem there are plenty of power cars that could have been reactivated and stock wise im sure there are spare trailers that could be reactivated within a relatively short period.
After all if I recall correctly a rake of mk3 stock was sent to Laira in May as standby but wasn't used. Why? I don't know. Plymouth and Exeter crews sign the traction still and really they are the only two depots needed to work a small number of services worked by additonal stock.
But instead we make do with the bare minimum that Hitachi can provide, even if it means passengers having to stand for hours on end, or worse still being left behind. It really isn't acceptable.
I remember the days when commuters used to moan like hell that they were standing on the 20 minute commute. Well standing on 3 hour journeys is a reality to the south west!!

 

[superkev]

Reading the above Hitachi CAF etc bashing isnt the problem to do with that every recent new uk train is effectivly a prototype. Why would any future train for LNER or hs2 fare any better.
All reliable ones are follow on orders from previous like the 387s. Better the devil you know.

As for me as I know a few people with limited mobility the low floor Flirts hove like the Dreadnought battleship before rendered all previous obsolete.
K

 

[Charlie Smythe]

It's an incredibly poor and financially disastrous situation but that could be argued for if the saga is allowed to carry on too.

Anything can be done if the situation is dire enough, but if it gets like that then we have a major issue.

From what I've heard suggested LNER may have seen sense on this one.

Good, they haven't fallen into the same trap that Avanti, Hull Trains, TPE and EMT have fallen into with the cheap add on order micro fleets.

I'd be amazed if they last 20 years. Even most of Hitachi's Shinkansen fleets (which are much better built and more reliable than the 80xs) rarely last 20 years. Withdrawal of N700 series trains (some of which were built by Hitachi) have already began, with withdrawn examples often only being 12 years old.

Not looking good is it, but we won't know until we get there. They should (hopefully) last the 27.5 year contract.

Completely agree with everything you say. The lot south west passengers have been dealt is a terrible one. The odd short form , fine, but they are numerous and on a daily basis and were happening well before the cracking crisis. Whoever specified 22 x 5 cars and just 7 x 9 cars for the wofe should be sacked quite frankly.
The 10 car pairings, when they actually happen, are inefficient and ridiculously expensive in terms of staffing, not to mention the poorer passenger experience.

The South West always gets left out and it's a bloody good thing that GWR ordered the 802's for the WoE as the DfT wasn't intereted in getting anything for us down this way. My guess would have been 2+8 refurbihsed PRM modified HST's which as nice as they are wouldn't have last (although the Castle sets may still out last the IET's)

The 5 cars were a mistake. They would have been better of ordering all nine cars and just using 2+4 HST's on route where 9 cars cannot be justifed. The HST's would have been a micro fleet which isn't ideal but they ended up sticking around anyway.

 

[irish_rail]

Reading the above Hitachi CAF etc bashing isnt the problem to do with that every recent new uk train is effectivly a prototype. Why would any future train for LNER or hs2 fare any better.
All reliable ones are follow on orders from previous like the 387s. Better the devil you know.

As for me as I know a few people with limited mobility the low floor Flirts hove like the Dreadnought battleship before rendered all previous obsolete.
K

But the low floor flirt trains are absolutely awful for the majority of intercity passengers and feel more like trams. Lets hope that stadler isn't the way forward. The vast vast majority of people don't give two hoots about level boarding.
Its not too late for the 80x fleet. It just needs tweaking and could yet still be a highly successful train eventually.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

But the low floor flirt trains are absolutely awful for the majority of intercity passengers and feel more like trams. Lets hope that stadler isn't the way forward. The vast vast majority of people don't give two hoots about level boarding.
Its not too late for the 80x fleet. It just needs tweaking and could yet still be a highly successful train eventually.

The Stadler fleet isn't great in practice, but as a concept (powercar in the middle, Jacob bogies etc.) they're good. The central powercar is a very neat idea and is really quite innovative.

 

[43096]

They should (hopefully) last the 27.5 year contract.

(although the Castle sets may still out last the IET's)

So using your logic, the HST sets will be around for another 25 years!?

Not a chance. The Castle sets will be gone as soon as sufficient DMUs (158/175 or similar) can be found: they’re a very expensive way of providing regional services.

But the low floor flirt trains are absolutely awful for the majority of intercity passengers and feel more like trams. Lets hope that stadler isn't the way forward.

Like a tram? What nonsense. They are far superior to an IET.

And low floor/level boarding is how it should be. It benefits far more people than wheelchair users.

 

[irish_rail]

The Stadler fleet isn't great in practice, but as a concept (powercar in the middle, Jacob bogies etc.) they're good. The central powercar is a very neat idea and is really quite innovative.

But the passenger experience is poor. And don't talk to me about the ride when sitting near the bogies! Imagine that on the b and h!!! Itd be goodbye pullman dining thats for sure!!!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The Stadler fleet isn't great in practice, but as a concept (powercar in the middle, Jacob bogies etc.) they're good. The central powercar is a very neat idea and is really quite innovative.

Stadler eating layout and seat comfort are superior though so if IETs make mid life upgrade they can put in a decent interior

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Stadler eating layout and seat comfort are superior though so if IETs make mid life upgrade they can put in a decent interior

Mid life being around 10 years time. I am hoping that the 80x’s do work out eventually. As much as I hate them, the passengers (the main losers in all this), deserve a decent service and having to buy and build a new fleet is not only a waste of their tax money but a waste of everyone time as well.

 

[Master29]

And I hate to bang on about it, but quite simply if the west of England line had been all 9 car units from day one, then we would not be suffering all these ridiculous short forms.
Yes there may have been some additional cancellations elsewhere of quieter services but the core intercity routes would keep full length trains. The idea that the main London to Cornwall line is suffering from 5 car sets at this time of year is frankly absurd.

Hypothetically, had GWR gone for all 9 car units and no 5s , with the cracking crisis then we would probably be hiring sets in from whoever in order to run the service. And would that really be such a bad thing? Couple of hired in long HSTs? Would passengers really be worse off than they are now, being crammed onto a 5 car set full and standing for 4 hours or more.....

Which is precisely what the likes of you and me have been saying all along. I knew they would get found out this summer as last year cannot really count and as someone has rightly pointed out the timings are slack. HST journeys to Cornish stations were quicker with certain services so the daft average 15 minutes off train times doesn't exist. Today particularly had many 5 car services which must have been hell quite frankly. I have heard some real horror stories coming from people about the W of E. The Totnes bridge hit is irrelevant as that has nothing to do with short forms. GWR should have had the same 2/3rds 9 car ratio as LNER instead of 1/3.
Someone was saying earlier only 27 years of this left. I simply don't believe they will last that long, unless there is a huge overhaul.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Which is precisely what the likes of you and me have been saying all along. I knew they would get found out this summer as last year cannot really count and as someone has rightly pointed out the timings are slack. HST journeys to Cornish stations were quicker with certain services so the daft average 15 minutes off train times doesn't exist. Today particularly had many 5 car services which must have been hell quite frankly. I have heard some real horror stories coming from people about the W of E. The Totnes bridge hit is irrelevant as that has nothing to do with short forms. GWR should have had the same 2/3rds 9 car ratio as LNER instead of 1/3.
Someone was saying earlier only 27 years of this left. I simply don't believe they will last that long, unless there is a huge overhaul.

It was me who mentioned the slack timing and it was also me who mentioned the length of the contract.

They’re definitely slack and that has probably been done to make it look like they’re on time when and engine is out. Sneaky but at the same time it’s an absolute joke. These trains should slaps them HST’s about but instead the timing have slackened to allow for engine issue. Joke.

27.5 years was the length of the initial contract but we’re 3 years in now so it’s more like 24 ish years left.

10 cars not being able to fit in Paignton really annoys me because it means that it has to be 5 or 9 cars and seeing as 9 cars are in demand most of the time you seem to get a lot of 5’s which isn’t ideal.

It’s a bad job when I ask my girlfriend, her friends, her family, my friends and family (none of them are railway enthusiasts) which train they prefer between the IET’s and the Castle Sets and they all reply with something along the lines of “the old train with carriages missing” or “the train with non passengers bits at each end” or the train with the engines at the ends” and not “the new one”. I haven’t influenced anyone and still not a single person that I have asked has said the IET and seeing as they aren’t enthusiasts, they aren’t biased as they just judge it on comfort and how pleasant they are to ride in.

I know those who I have spoken to are a tiny slice of the passengers, but it’s still sad that people prefer 70’s trains to their 21st century counterpart.

 

[Wolfie]

Well seeing as this is a medium term problem there are plenty of power cars that could have been reactivated and stock wise im sure there are spare trailers that could be reactivated within a relatively short period.
After all if I recall correctly a rake of mk3 stock was sent to Laira in May as standby but wasn't used. Why? I don't know. Plymouth and Exeter crews sign the traction still and really they are the only two depots needed to work a small number of services worked by additonal stock.
But instead we make do with the bare minimum that Hitachi can provide, even if it means passengers having to stand for hours on end, or worse still being left behind. It really isn't acceptable.
I remember the days when commuters used to moan like hell that they were standing on the 20 minute commute. Well standing on 3 hour journeys is a reality to the south west!!

You may want to read what was said about HSTs in this thread.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-realistic-changes-would-you-like-to-see-on-cross-country-trains.221080/page-14#post-5294184

 

[Charlie Smythe]

After all if I recall correctly a rake of mk3 stock was sent to Laira in May as standby but wasn't used. Why? I don't know. Plymouth and Exeter crews sign the traction still and really they are the only two depots needed to work a small number of services worked by additonal stock.
But instead we make do with the bare minimum that Hitachi can provide, even if it means passengers having to stand for hours on end, or worse still being left behind. It really isn't acceptable.
I remember the days when commuters used to moan like hell that they were standing on the 20 minute commute. Well standing on 3 hour journeys is a reality to the south west!!

So I was, up until earlier today, a huge fan of more HST’s for XC and also GWR but there are whole range of reasons why it cannot happen.

I won’t go through them all but I was told that there is a massive shortage of trailer cars (which after a bit of digging turns out is true), the PC’s themselves are very corroded and the whole idea of it doesn’t make sense financially, not now anyway. ScotRail and GWR have pretty much all the mk3’s that are left.

 

[Ashley Hill]

We certainly won't see a class 800 preservation movement

We thought that about HSTs in the 70s and Pacers in the 80s,don't hold your breath.

They are surprisingly unreliable actually. Mainly down to the cheap fixtures and fittings.
Drivers seats for example have led to countless failures

When I learnt IETs our trainer claimed the drivers seats cost 40K each. If that's true then I'd want my money back as they're already very rickety in the rear cab (never sat in one going forward).

 

[Charlie Smythe]

We thought that about HSTs in the 70s and Pacers in the 80s,don't hold your breath.

Yeah but, the HST’s and Pacers lasted long enough to be preserved, I don’t think the IET will get that far.

When I learnt IETs our trainer claimed the drivers seats cost 40K each. If that's true then I'd want my money back as they're already very rickety in the rear cab (never sat in one going forward).

You what?
40k for a seat?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Yeah but, the HST’s and Pacers lasted long enough to be preserved, I don’t think the IET will get that far.

You what?
40k for a seat?

So we were told. It's quite a thing when you see it with several types of adjustment. Perhaps IrishRail could add more to this.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

So we were told. It's quite a thing when you see it with several types of adjustment. Perhaps IrishRail could add more to this.

I would want a lot of adjustment for 40k that’s for sure.

 

[Ashley Hill]

3 options for vertical dampening,hight,distance from desk,seat tilt,back recliner,adjustable lower and upper back support,and angle of arm rest.
All that and it creaks and groans and plenty of sideways movement on rough track.

 

[DanNCL]

They’re definitely slack and that has probably been done to make it look like they’re on time when and engine is out. Sneaky but at the same time it’s an absolute joke. These trains should slaps them HST’s about but instead the timing have slackened to allow for engine issue. Joke.

I had a look at some East Coast running times for them and compared them to what the HSTs and 91s managed on them. I am yet to find a single 80x worked service that has matched the journey times that 1S07 (08:00 Kings Cross - Edinburgh) was achieving on a near daily basis between Kings Cross and York when it was 91 worked last summer, which is really poor considering that on electric they're supposed to be outpacing the 91s by a long shot. They are also not matching the HST timings on the Highland Main Line, indeed the timings had to be adjusted for the 800s to cater for the fact that they're slower over the gradients.

Yeah but, the HST’s and Pacers lasted long enough to be preserved, I don’t think the IET will get that far.

I would be surprised if at the very least a driving carriage wasn't preserved. Several APT vehicles made it into preservation, and it seems unlikely that the 80xs won't last longer in service than the 370s did.

You what?
40k for a seat?

Yep. Nothing cheap about the 80xs, pretty much every part of them cost a bomb, despite the poor quality and cheap feel of it all.

 

[Pete_uk]

I was told, rightly or wrongly that the 40k was incorrect and that they were more like 7k.

 

[irish_rail]

I was told, rightly or wrongly that the 40k was incorrect and that they were more like 7k.

Even so, 7k was not money well spent.
The seat doesn't do the basics. For example should you want it as high as possible to give a decent view out the front over the dashboard, most of the time it just sinks back down of its own accord.
It is also very bouncy, and even with the various adjustments that can be made, on many sets it is impossible to stop the bouncyiness, which is very annoying on routes like the b and h which are , shall we say less than smooth!