H-Train Proposal for Leeds...

[stuartmoss]

A Leeds Professor has put forth an idea for a H-Bahn style mass transport system for Leeds as an alternative to the trolleybus. He has written a detailed and lengthy proposal which is on Google docs here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8aHDmtcwr3-aXgta0ZhU09MeW8/edit

...Conclusion

The thoughts presented in this proposal show that the H-Train is a feasible solution for the Leeds Transport problems. The material presented here can lead to renewed discussions about how to build a future-proof public transport system for Leeds. Further study is needed about the actual transport streams, in order to select the optimal placement of stations and lines so that the system benefits as many passengers as possible.

He is trying to generate some discussion for solutions to the problems faced by Leeds other than the Trolleybus. If you like his idea he has set up a Facebook page here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Leeds-H-Train/685896068110034

 

[ModernRailways]

Not something I can see taking off myself. In my view Leeds needs a Metro/Tube type service or a tram service, where the tram runs under the city centre - something like Köln maybe? - but then emerges for the suburban run where traffic isn't a big factor and street running is easier.

A great idea, but in practice it's impractical when there are better options for just a little more money.

 

[WatcherZero]

With a conventional line costing about £10m per km Im a bit dubious of his estimate of a suspended railway costing £12m per km.

 

[edwin_m]

Like most monorails I'd take a lot of convincing that this isn't a solution looking for a problem. I see no mention at all of two major questions they normally struggle to answer: safe evacuation of a stuck train and concern about something passing by people's windows at first or second floor level.

 

[AndyHudds]

If this isn't the answer, a tram scheme is not the answer due to cost, a trolley bus is not the answer the what is the answer? Leeds desperately needs summat but what then?

If they did build it they have to make sure it didn't become a blot, visually, on the city centre obstructing views of some of the fine architecture. And it would need to be more than 2 carriages if it was to serve the airport, Elland Road or Elland Stadium as it is referred to in the document and The White Rose Centre.

It need not run so 'high' in the sky either, if you google 'h-bahn', some of the images show it running at practically ground level.

 

[ModernRailways]

a tram scheme is not the answer due to cost

I'm sorry, but London is getting Crossrail and potentially Crossrail 2. Leeds needs a new mode of transport and cost should be on par with that of Crossrail in my view, even though a tram network - similar to Köln's - would be cheaper.

Trams are what Leeds need, plain and simple. Run Underground in the City centre, but then in the suburbs they go onto the road - new alignments possibly similar to Manchester Metrolink? If Trams aren't the answer then I don't know what is, they can't pile more buses in, and something needs to be done. When I was there last transport is great, but incredibly busy.

It still surprises me how little this country has in the way of Tram/Metro/Subway infrastructure when compared to mainland Europe. Almost every city (and quite a lot of towns) over there has a Tram system at the very least. We're a small country, but we have a huge population that needs moving about and right now London seems to be the only place getting any sort of massive new infrastructure.

 

[edwin_m]

Just because £x is being spent in London (population 8m+) doesn't mean that £x must also be spent in other cities with much lower population. Without having detailed knowledge of Leeds I would suggest from looking at similar cities that its problems can be solved at much lower cost than that (for example Northern Hub is well under £1bn and Metrolink extensions are around £1.6bn).

Unlike many other cities, Leeds doesn't have many disused trackbeds that could be used for rapid transit. For any surface mode to work, there needs to be a serious commitment to dedicating roadspace to it despite the likely howls of protest from motorists. Putting transit above or below ground may appear to avoid this difficult choice. But it costs a lot more, is less easy to access and has the potential to attract crime and vandalism (or at least give the impression of doing so) as some of the European "pre-metro" schemes have. And unless grade separation is to extend over the whole route, roadspace must be found in the suburbs too - sometimes that is more difficult.

 

[AndyHudds]

I'm sorry, but London is getting Crossrail and potentially Crossrail 2. Leeds needs a new mode of transport and cost should be on par with that of Crossrail in my view, even though a tram network - similar to Köln's - would be cheaper.

Trams are what Leeds need, plain and simple. Run Underground in the City centre, but then in the suburbs they go onto the road - new alignments possibly similar to Manchester Metrolink? If Trams aren't the answer then I don't know what is, they can't pile more buses in, and something needs to be done. When I was there last transport is great, but incredibly busy.

It still surprises me how little this country has in the way of Tram/Metro/Subway infrastructure when compared to mainland Europe. Almost every city (and quite a lot of towns) over there has a Tram system at the very least. We're a small country, but we have a huge population that needs moving about and right now London seems to be the only place getting any sort of massive new infrastructure.

I wouldn't actually disagree with any of what you've said. It's just that the tram idea is constantly 'poo pooed' over cost. Although I don't think the 'h-bahn' system is a bad idea to be fair. It can be ran close to the ground in the suburbs to avoid visual impact and would be a good way of connecting 'high traffic' areas like Elland Road, The White Rose Centre, the Airport (surely this would be ideal for the airport? Metro are desperate for some kind of rail link to the airport.)

Sheffield has the Supertram but Leeds is more of an economical powerhouse than Sheffield but is left lagging behind in the public transport stakes. The bus services in Leeds are great, most services run every 10 minutes or so and the airport has a good service run by Yorkshire Tiger, in terms of frequency and quality of the bus in use but Leeds, for its size, needs a little more now.

I also think Metro have never focused their energies on achieving a 'rapid transport' system, Manchester and Sheffield have had their tram services for well over 20 years, although Sheffield doesn't seem to have developed theirs any further like Manchester has, until now, with the Trolley Bus. The Trolley Bus just feels a second rate answer for a big question.

 

[Deerfold]

I also think Metro have never focused their energies on achieving a 'rapid transport' system, Manchester and Sheffield have had their tram services for well over 20 years, although Sheffield doesn't seem to have developed theirs any further like Manchester has, until now, with the Trolley Bus. The Trolley Bus just feels a second rate answer for a big question.

Well, Metro thought they were getting a Tram System until the last government did a U-turn in 2005 and told them to come up with something cheaper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_Supertram

Manchester's early days were pretty much all conversions from heavy rail whereas Metro had focussed on improving its heavy rail services (and besides, almost all the lines in West Yorkshire continue out of the county).

 

[HSTEd]

This looks like another attempt to scotch the trolleybus and ensure nothing challenges the dominance of big bus operators in public transport in Leeds.

 

[stuartmoss]

This looks like another attempt to scotch the trolleybus and ensure nothing challenges the dominance of big bus operators in public transport in Leeds.

It isn't, I can assure you. The Prof in question is a colleague and a big rail fan. Trams would have been his preferred option, but as that's been ruled out, he wants to present this as something to consider as an alternative to the trolleybus.

 

[Deerfold]

It isn't, I can assure you. The Prof in question is a colleague and a big rail fan. Trams would have been his preferred option, but as that's been ruled out, he wants to present this as something to consider as an alternative to the trolleybus.

I'm a little unsure about his costings figure. He seems to think we can build this for the same price as they can in China. I'm sceptical about that.

I'm also unsure of the point of only building as far as Headingly - I can't see people from further out choosing to get off their bus which will be going into the city anyway. It barely seems worth bothering for such a short stretch.

He seems to be wanting to attract car drivers, but only in that they go to park and ride centres (with mostly seem to be other people's car parks, presumably to reduce costs).

Whilst there's a point to P&R, I'd rather provide public transport to a large number of people, not just car drivers and those who already live very near the city centre.

 

[AndyHudds]

It isn't, I can assure you. The Prof in question is a colleague and a big rail fan. Trams would have been his preferred option, but as that's been ruled out, he wants to present this as something to consider as an alternative to the trolleybus.

Has he put this to Metro?

 

[stuartmoss]

Deerfold - I'd like to see the Headingley branch extended to Leeds Bradford Airport via Holt Park and Cookridge.

AndyHudds - I don't think so, he's away at the minute, but when he get's back I'll suggest that to him.

 

[Oswyntail]

...Whilst there's a point to P&R, I'd rather provide public transport to a large number of people, not just car drivers and those who already live very near the city centre.

At the same time, reducing car parking in the central areas (yes, I know pigs might fly, but one can hope). It is ridiculous to see how many people drive into Leeds from Ilkley each morning, but the excuses are that there is insufficient space on the trains and no easy transport from the station onward. There should be no reason to take a private car into any city centre regularly.

 

[AndyHudds]

At the same time, reducing car parking in the central areas (yes, I know pigs might fly, but one can hope). It is ridiculous to see how many people drive into Leeds from Ilkley each morning, but the excuses are that there is insufficient space on the trains and no easy transport from the station onward. There should be no reason to take a private car into any city centre regularly.

On Look North last week there was a report on Leeds City Council introducing congestion charges to access the city centre, if this was the case then public transport issues would need addressing.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Does this mean they are seriously looking at bringing back trolley buses to Leads? That would be good.

 

[Deerfold]

Does this mean they are seriously looking at bringing back trolley buses to Leads? That would be good.

To, Leeds yes. It's all planned and will go ahead assuming the current public enquiry doesn't go against it.

www.ngtmetro.com

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

To, Leeds yes. It's all planned and will go ahead assuming the current public enquiry doesn't go against it.

www.ngtmetro.com

Oh right, tks.

 

[Yew]

How about a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six car monorail?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhpO_WcR_jE

 

[Oswyntail]

How about a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six car monorail?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhpO_WcR_jE

Yup, that just about sums up Leeds' approach to transport matters.:roll: