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Has anyone ever traveled first class on a flight?

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Bald Rick

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Longhaul economy now, on another hand, is in both hard and soft product terms probably about where bucket and spade Spantax charters of the 1980s were. But, in real terms, it's also become incredibly cheap, and a lot of the 'cuts' have been 'disguised' by providing flashy seat back entertainment.

About 20 years ago I flew BA/QF to/from Australia, at the very back of the plane. Fares now are broadly similar in cash terms, ie much cheaper when inflation is taken into account. What differences might I expect if I did the same journey now?


I’ve never really considered Premium Economy worth it. The price difference is huge but you dont get any of the worthwhile perks such as lounge access or a lie flat seat.

I’d say it’s worth it on sectors where you are awake, e.g. westbound transatlantic. Priority check in, more space, a bit of bubbly, bags off the plane earlier (for me at least!) and a little bit of exclusivity.

If you intend to be asleep, it’s just as (un)comfortable as regular economy. Arguably more so, as often the armrests don’t lift so you can’t spread out as easily.
 
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FQTV

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I think it rather depends what you mean by Premium Economy. If you're talking Virgin, it's sort of a faux business class that is vastly superior to "traditional Economy". But on some airlines, most notably US domestics but also KLM at one point (though I think they may have now changed it) it was just regular Economy with more legroom. And on US domestics even "first class" is more like premium economy on a long-haul.

I suspect you might find that like with trains the use-case varies. I'm on the large side so I would consider it for more comfort and would rather pay less for just that than more for a whole package of stuff (which is also my view on railway 1st), but a short, skinny person would probably not gain that value from it and would need the extras to be sold on it.

It's one of the things I've always quite liked about United. They don't bother with Premium Economy, and just have a pile of seats with extra legroom for a fairly reasonable added fee. It's useless for sleeping in, but it's just enough to not feel actively hemmed in for 8 hours, and makes it possible to reasonably use a laptop. If I'm going to pay a premium then I'll go all the way to business every time.

To a greater or lesser extent, the way that the likes of KLM with their Economy Comfort offer (they’ve never had any kind of proper Premium Economy) and United have embodied aircraft with some rows of seats with increased legroom and additional (usually 2 or 3 inches of) recline is mostly about incrementally rewarding their most loyal customers.

Those seats are available, at a dynamic cost, to non-members and lower tier members of their loyalty programmes, but they’re also allocated at no cost to top tier members of their programmes (and comparable alliance programme members).

It’s a different way of approaching the overall market, and indeed it’s a published differentiator between KLM (two class) and Air France (four class) operations, with the latter positioned as the premium operation - despite the statistically higher chance of dying on Air France.

Airlines are constantly changing to try and test, meet and drive markets, and loyalty programmes are an enormously powerful way of promoting and measuring this. Railways are literally left behind in this regard.

As an aside with KLM, there was a time in the late 1990s and early 2000s when they also tested a service system which flexed the soft product on their 747-400 Combi fleet’s World Business Class provision.

The Zone A provision forward of Doors 1 was always curtained and was full WBC. Aft of Door 1L, on the port side, WBC seating continued, with a bank of galleys starboard. There was then a second curtain forward of Door 2L.

On high demand services, full WBC service was offered in both these cabins, but on lower yield/lower demand ones, passengers who were members at the Gold level of the airline’s then Flying Dutchman programme could select those Business Class Zone B Seats at no cost, but receive Economy Class food and beverage.

For a couple of years, this was an incredibly ‘magnetic’ proposition for KLM.

About 20 years ago I flew BA/QF to/from Australia, at the very back of the plane. Fares now are broadly similar in cash terms, ie much cheaper when inflation is taken into account. What differences might I expect if I did the same journey?

Well, from the airline’s point of view, they’d hope ‘nothing’, of course.

In practice, on a like for like basis taking BA, you’d have travelled on a Boeing 747-400 in Economy seats ten abreast an average of 18.5 inches wide, with a pitch of between 32 and 34 inches.

Assuming that the route restarts on October 31st, BA will operate a Boeing 787 with Economy seats nine abreast an average of 17.5 inches wide, with a pitch of 31 inches and narrower aisles.

Lavatory provision would have been about 50% higher per passenger then compared to now.

Twenty years ago, crew would have been legacy Worldwide Fleet, and would have enjoyed additional rest between flight sectors.

Today it’ll be the new global (hybrid Mixed and Worldwide) crew, on reduced rest.

On that earlier flight, you’d have had full meal service generally every six hours or so, and all services would have been full service.

You should have received printed menus.

Current service would be once every eight hours or so, and the second service would usually be ‘snack’ rather than ‘meal’.

The majority of staff on the ground wearing the airline’s uniform would have been directly employed by the airline, and every airport (‘station’) served would have had a permanent staff and a station manager.

Other than at Heathrow and Gatwick, all ground staff will now be outsourced.

When there was a problem with bags on the belt in Sydney, the station manager was known to stand on the carousel and let passengers know what was going on.

Now, if your bag is misloaded, you might get a text message and a link to the Sita Aero website to enquire after your belongings.

It is now, however, stunningly cheap.
 
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FQTV

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Always direct!!

Everyone will have their own tipping point, but depending on the circumstances, and acknowledging that there are a great deal of different ones, there’s a definite value in direct flight.

There are instances in which it’s definitely beneficial to multi-sector journeys if you’re a member of a frequent flyer programme, but if not, getting on, strapping in and getting it over with has a significant set of advantages.

And again, depending on the individual, x hours of Economy could actually be less chew than x + y (or x +y + z) hours of flat bed travel.

Just get there and get over it.

However, if it’s a special occasion and you’d like to make a memory of the journey and not just the destination - and let's face it you can really enjoy front of the plane travel - or you’re absolutely subject to pressures that mean the cost of the travel is covered by the business advantage - or you’re so well-off that it really doesn’t matter, then please do book the front seats.

It’ll also help mean that those at the back will get from Heathrow to LA with free food and booze, and back, for less than a First Off Peak Return from Euston to Manchester.
 

Bald Rick

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Thanks @FQTV

When there was a problem with bags on the belt in Sydney

Funnily enough there was. We were connecting to Melbourne - bags promised to go straight through. At the last minute I thought I’d check on the belt at SYD, and there they were...
 

FQTV

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Thanks @FQTV



Funnily enough there was. We were connecting to Melbourne - bags promised to go straight through. At the last minute I thought I’d check on the belt at SYD, and there they were...

Who promised, out of interest? Australia operates first port of entry customs clearance, like the US, so generally-speaking you’d collect and recheck as a matter of course.

Funnily enough, my folks arrived hand luggage only on one occasion a couple of years ago, and that blew the Australians’ minds!
 

TravelDream

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Like everything, it's worth what someone will pay for it. What I think something is worth, others would say is a crazy price.

On premium economy, it's very difficult to judge due to the massive variation in what it is.
It can be just economy with extra legroom (KLM etc.) or it can be a wider and more comfortable seat (BA, Singapore, Aeroflot etc.). Service can be the same as economy (KLM) or it can be the same as business (Aeroflot) or something in the middle (BA and Singapore). Often I think the price difference between business, PE and economy is ridiculous. Things where economy is £600, premium £1800 and business £2200. I'd never pay for PE in that circumstance as it is actually much closer to economy than business. An airline to watch, though, if you are going east is Aeroflot. They often price their premium economy cabin *very* competitively. Often a hundred or two more than normal economy. It's not perfect, but you do have a wider seat with more legroom and the business class food/ drink service.
*I use those four example as they are the four airlines I've flown long-haul in premium economy.

Oh well, it was pretty cool anyway. They call it Falcon Class l think, which probably led to my inflated recollections
Modern airline business classes are nothing like the business class cabin of old. Today's business cabins are like first from the 80s/90s. I've not flown Gulf, but did have a look on their website. Their Falcon Gold class hard product looks stunning. Glad you had a nice flight.
 

Bletchleyite

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Modern airline business classes are nothing like the business class cabin of old. Today's business cabins are like first from the 80s/90s. I've not flown Gulf, but did have a look on their website. Their Falcon Gold class hard product looks stunning. Glad you had a nice flight.

I think what you've got (and Virgin Atlantic were first to start the trend) is a bit of "class inflation", the reason being to bring their product into "range" of customers whose employer won't pay for First but will pay the high end of a Business Class fare, and similarly with PE and Business. Eurostar's "Standard Premium" is a railway version of that, sort-of. Which means that I still think (even though not everyone agreed above) that PE is tending towards being what Business was when it was first introduced, and Business towards 1st, and 1st either dropping off the top or being the brand-new Overfinch Range Rover of air travel for the few very rich people who are choosing between it and a private jet.

Always direct!!

I'd say direct to the likes of South East Asia (around the 10-12 hour mark), but I reckon if I was going to Oz I'd probably want a stop-off, ideally for a couple of days rather than straight onto another flight. 24 hours is a long time, even in business or first class.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Upstairs on a 747, wonderful. It's not what you get, its what you don't get!

I've had the privilege to do that a couple of times (Malaysia Airlines business class, which was seated 2+2) and it really is very pleasant, a private jet style experience in what at the time (it was pre-A380) was the world's largest passenger aircraft. The curvature of the hull meant you got a lot of space (including a little "locker" for your stuff) on the window side. Only odd thing about it was that the floor was decidedly bouncy in turbulence which was a bit disconcerting.

Don't know if it'd be as special on the few airlines (BA?) that put economy up there, it'd probably be more like a 737 with lower headroom in the window seat.
 

Bald Rick

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Who promised, out of interest?

Check in @ Terminal 4. It was my first long haul trip, the MEL tags went on, so I believed them!


Funnily enough, my folks arrived hand luggage only on one occasion a couple of years ago, and that blew the Australians’ minds!

Yes I know someone who was flown out for an interview in Auckland (20+ years ago), and for one reason or another couldn’t turn it into s mini holiday - he was in NZ for no more than a few hours. Returning to London with barely even hand luggage, customs got interested...


Don't know if it'd be as special on the few airlines (BA?) that put economy up there,

I’ve done PE up there with Virgin. Front row. Felt pretty special! And the floor was bouncy too.
 

Bungle158

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Modern airline business classes are nothing like the business class cabin of old. Today's business cabins are like first from the 80s/90s. I've not flown Gulf, but did have a look on their website. Their Falcon Gold class hard product looks stunning. Glad you had a nice flight.
Thanks. I am quite pleased with Gulf. Their customer service is very good and they were particularly helpful when flights out of India were curtailed at very short notice.
 

Jimini

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Yes I know someone who was flown out for an interview in Auckland (20+ years ago), and for one reason or another couldn’t turn it into s mini holiday - he was in NZ for no more than a few hours. Returning to London with barely even hand luggage, customs got interested...

Bit off topic (sorry mods) but hopefully one that'll amuse..

Re: hand luggage only on long haul. Back in the 90s / early '00s when Richard Desmond still owned Northern & Shell (Daily Express, Daily Star, OK! Magazine, plus his adult magazine portfolio), Dickie Desmond had a meeting in Brazil. Now in those days (and given the rather large size of his ego), there was one circulation / sales rep in particular who used to travel the globe one step ahead of Desmond, to make sure that wherever in the world Desmond went, he saw OK! Magazine on sale on the newsstand.

Said sales rep flew ahead of Desmond to São Paulo with nothing other than a small bag that contained his personal effects, and a bundle of OK! Magazine to hand over to the news shop in the arrivals hall. Needless to say the story outlined above didn't wash with the security / customs folk at São Paulo, and he spent the best part of 15 minutes bent over a desk with his trousers round his ankles while the full rubber glove treatment was dished out..
 

FQTV

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I think what you've got (and Virgin Atlantic were first to start the trend) is a bit of "class inflation", the reason being to bring their product into "range" of customers whose employer won't pay for First but will pay the high end of a Business Class fare, and similarly with PE and Business. Eurostar's "Standard Premium" is a railway version of that, sort-of. Which means that I still think (even though not everyone agreed above) that PE is tending towards being what Business was when it was first introduced, and Business towards 1st, and 1st either dropping off the top or being the brand-new Overfinch Range Rover of air travel for the few very rich people who are choosing between it and a private jet.

Virgin Atlantic wasn't the first with Premium Economy - that honour went to EVA Air of Taiwan. What EVA did was very similar to the KLM trial mentioned above; they did use old Business Class seats initially to give it a go. That only lasted so long, and EVA uses specific Premium Economy seats nowadays - as do all the other majors that offer that type of cabin (ie not the KLM/United et al spaced out Economy).

So, apart from those initial embodiments at EVA and KLM, it remains the case that Premium Economy now is more like Economy of old, not Business.

This is quite a famous picture, courtesy of Qantas, showing their Economy Class in the 1970s:

QF Y.jpg

This is their longhaul Economy now - again courtesy of Qantas:

QF Y Now.jpg

And this is their A380 Premium Economy, courtesy of Airbus:

008-A380-QFA-premium-eco-class.jpg

This fairly clearly shows that their Premium Economy now is closer to their Economy then.

There aren't too many pictures around of older Business Classes, and indeed Qantas was the first airline to offer one in the late 1970s (again actually as a test for full fare Economy ticketholders):

qantas-business-class-seat-1979.jpg

Business Class before flat beds ended up looking like this in most cases, seen here in a Delta-published photograph:

delta j.jpg

So, when it comes to Premium Economy, it's definitely Economy-of-old, not Business-of-old - even if today's Business Classes are incomparable in hard product terms to Business and First of yore.

As I said earlier, though, in soft product terms, modern First Classes aren't as elevated as Business Class was in the past, so it's more complicated than simple comparisons can ever be.

One other thing to mention, perhaps, is that seats and layouts are often, as much as anything else, a product of the basic architecture of the aircraft themselves. The bar in the nose of the Virgin 747s, for example, was put there to try and make use of space that their choice of Business Class seats and galley locations rendered unusable. Now, just imagine that you have paid an Upper Class fare for a flat bed and some valuable sleep on a short overnight flight from the Eastern Seaboard, and right next to you you've got Jeff and Dave on their way back from the Xerox Extravaganza and wanting to travel like rockstars (from Wikipedia):

800px-Virgin_Atlantic_Airways_Boeing_747-400_Upper_class_nose_cabin.jpg

This is also why Emirates A380s have a shower in First Class and Etihad has its The Residence - it's because the A380 has a really awkward forward fuselage profile on the upper deck, rendering the areas either side of the grand staircase almost unusable for any normal purpose. It's therefore dead space from a revenue point of view, unless you can do something that at least drives some PR.

It's also why BA had some 747s with Premium Economy behind First but in front of Club - the space in that Zone 2 was better occupied by the dimensions and layout of the PE seats than it could be by the Club beds. Irked loads of folks that PE customers could disembark before Club ones, but the real estate was valuable and the economics drove the layout.

Though if you want to see maximum utilisation of a 747's passenger cabin space, the old all-Economy Corsair layout was probably unbeatable, with the wonderful unique solo seat constituting the first row of the centre bank of seats at the point where the nose narrowed to prohibit any more seats being squeezed in (credit Eric Fortin from AirTeamImages):

Corsair.jpg

I'd say direct to the likes of South East Asia (around the 10-12 hour mark), but I reckon if I was going to Oz I'd probably want a stop-off, ideally for a couple of days rather than straight onto another flight. 24 hours is a long time, even in business or first class.

All that happens is that you get two body clock upsets rather than one; unless you actually want to visit the connecting point and experience the place, it's generally counterproductive to break the journey - in any class.

Don't know if it'd be as special on the few airlines (BA?) that put economy up there, it'd probably be more like a 737 with lower headroom in the window seat.

It's getting on for 30 years since BA had any Economy seats on the upper deck. Certain versions of the 'Classic' 747-136 had 30 economy seats up there; some -236s had 27 and then, when the -436 came along, some of those had 60 seats. They only lasted a few years, though, before all -436 upper decks became fully Club World.

Even at 60 seats, though, it was half the size of a 737 so was quieter and more 'exclusive' and the side bins were a feature of the aircraft, not the cabin (see above for architecture fundamentals) - so window seats in Economy had the bins too, and therefore sat inboard from the fuselage wall and didn't have any particular headroom issues.

One of the main problems with Economy seats up there was in part also the reason for the side bins - the overheads were very small and with that many passengers, there were often issues with storage, even pre-laptops.

Check in @ Terminal 4. It was my first long haul trip, the MEL tags went on, so I believed them!

Oops.

It (sort of) first happened to me in 1986 flying back from Paris. As it was the first time that I'd flown on my own, and the first time that I'd flown on a 'stopping service', I didn't challenge the agent at CDG when she tagged the bag for the first stop on the flight, but of course the bag got off there and I didn't.

Through-checking of bags is a constant course of bother, especially in places like the US, as bags are tagged to final destination but will still come out on the carousel at the first port of entry, for customs clearance, and then they're rechecked with their original tags for the onward flight.
 

telstarbox

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Thanks for the interesting pics!

I’ve never really considered Premium Economy worth it. The price difference is huge but you dont get any of the worthwhile perks such as lounge access or a lie flat seat.
Is it likely that any carrier would introduce Economy flat "bunk beds" as on Indian Railways sleepers - or is the segmentation of Business class more important for revenue?
 
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Mojo

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Thanks for the interesting pics!


Is it likely that any carrier would introduce Economy flat "bunk beds" as on Indian Railways sleepers - or is the segmentation of Business class more important for revenue?
Air New Zealand has the ‘Skycouch’ which allows customers to stretch out almost like a bed! It’s only 1.55m long though so not possible to fully stretch out.
 

FQTV

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Thanks for the interesting pics!


Is it likely that any carrier would introduce Economy flat "bunk beds" as on Indian Railways sleepers - or is the segmentation of Business class more important for revenue?

Well, to a certain extent, all bets are off in terms of where the market is going to come back, but pre March 2020, yes; Business Class is generally too important a revenue driver to risk dilution or compromise from other products. The notion of bunk beds tends to be promoted by design agencies to get them some free PR, but the key to managing airline yields is to make sure that your aircraft are as flexible as possible.

Bunks on an overnight Eastbound Transatlantic might be sellable, but they’d be useless on Westbound daytime ones. They might be popular with solo travellers, but not with couples or families. They’d be unsuitable for young children (which is a bit of an issue with enclosed Business Class and First Class ‘suites’ as well). There are also issues in terms of safety during take off and landing.

So, there never seems much potential for them in practice.

Air New Zealand has the ‘Skycouch’ which allows customers to stretch out almost like a bed! It’s only 1.55m long though so not possible to fully stretch out.

Skycouch is just a flap that pulls up to close the space where your legs normally go, and the there’s a pad to lessen the contours in the individual seat cushions that you sit sideways across instead.

It’s basically a playpen for kids, and something of a nightmare for nearby passengers on occasion as a result!
 

Bletchleyite

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And this is their A380 Premium Economy, courtesy of Airbus:

View attachment 90178

This fairly clearly shows that their Premium Economy now is closer to their Economy then.

There aren't too many pictures around of older Business Classes, and indeed Qantas was the first airline to offer one in the late 1970s (again actually as a test for full fare Economy ticketholders):

View attachment 90179

Doesn't that kind-of prove my point? That very old business class looks almost identical to the Premium Economy above it. There is one fewer seat across the aircraft than the "old Economy" you showed, which would be 2-4-3 or 3-3-3 in a 747, while premium economy in a 747 is typically 2-4-2 (and normal economy now 3-4-3).

It might be that you're skinny and thus don't notice the extra width, but I certainly do.

The thing that's similar is that both PE and "old Economy" tended to have a 35-38" pitch.

All that happens is that you get two body clock upsets rather than one; unless you actually want to visit the connecting point and experience the place, it's generally counterproductive to break the journey - in any class.

It doesn't as such because you don't have to fully adjust. I went to Canada for 4 days once, and stayed on the "disrupted" time zone (taking advantage of waking up wide awake at 4am to run round the wonderfully empty city, which I'd love to do normally but can never make myself do it!)

To me, 24 hours on an aircraft is insufferably grim, and in Economy might actually be a health risk (I've had 2 DVTs now, definitely don't want any more).
 
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nlogax

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It doesn't as such because you don't have to fully adjust. I went to Canada for 4 days once, and stayed on the "disrupted" time zone (taking advantage of waking up wide awake at 4am run round the wonderfully empty city, which I'd love to do normally but can never make myself do it!)

Exactly. This is how to survive a long weekend in NYC and return to work on a Monday or Tuesday morning vaguely intact.
 

miami

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Funnily enough, my folks arrived hand luggage only on one occasion a couple of years ago, and that blew the Australians’ minds!

I've been to Austraila 3 times. Twice for work, once with the family. Both times for work it was hand luggage only, with the family we checked in 18 items.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've been to Austraila 3 times. Twice for work, once with the family. Both times for work it was hand luggage only, with the family we checked in 18 items.

I always check a bag. Just that bit more civilised than having to cram stuff in, and if the flight is 6+ hours then half an hour waiting for a bag is nothing. Only time I didn't was when we had a company flat I was weekly commuting to so I could keep clothes etc over there.

That said, I reckon (like with seats) there's a "size of person" thing in how feasible hand luggage only is. XL and XXL clothes take up a lot more space than S, same with if I want to put my size 13 running shoes in.
 

Bald Rick

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It doesn't as such because you don't have to fully adjust. I went to Canada for 4 days once, and stayed on the "disrupted" time zone (taking advantage of waking up wide awake at 4am to run round the wonderfully empty city, which I'd love to do normally but can never make myself do it!)

Going West is one thing. Going east quite another!

My trips east I’ve generally done in one go - even to Australia (with an hour refuelling stop). However I did do Australia once with a 2 night stop in Singapore. Spent the whole time in Singapore half asleep, and then just as I was getting used to it went on to Oz and spent the first few days there half asleep too.

If going to eastern Oz or NZ it’s definitely better to do it in one go (jet lag wise), as you just kid your system you are in a time zone 12/13 hours west rather than 11/12 hours east.
 

Bletchleyite

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If going to eastern Oz or NZ it’s definitely better to do it in one go (jet lag wise), as you just kid your system you are in a time zone 12/13 hours west rather than 11/12 hours east.

Of course you can still do that with a stop - just don't attempt to adjust to it at all. One day won't adjust you by any more than about an hour.
 

ainsworth74

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with the wonderful unique solo seat constituting the first row of the centre bank of seats at the point where the nose narrowed to prohibit any more seats being squeezed in

Now that's a throne seat! :lol:

I actually think I'd find that seat rather uncomfortable. I like having the thought something (or someone!) next to me other than just aisle on both sides!
 

miami

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I always check a bag. Just that bit more civilised than having to cram stuff in, and if the flight is 6+ hours then half an hour waiting for a bag is nothing. Only time I didn't was when we had a company flat I was weekly commuting to so I could keep clothes etc over there.

I went to New York in 2012 with a computer on a carnet, so I figured I might as well check my hand luggage in and avoid the liquid idiocy. I had a small bag with laptop/charger for the flight and that was about it.

Landed at an empty Newark, one of the last 3 flights to arrive before Hurricane Sandy. Collected the computer, and a text message saying one of my bags hadn't made it.

That left me in New York, with the city shutting down, no change of clothes or even a toothbrush. Fortunatly I found a Duane Reede still open which sold some underwear, toothbrush etc. Eventually got my bag back a week later (by which time I'd moved on to Washington)


Yeah, I'd quite like a single seat, but ideally next to something e.g. the window or bulkhead.

BA's Hi-J 747 had 2 seats in WTP, row 28 seats B/J which were on their own at the front of the cabin. There wasn't an A/K because of the escape slide taking the room up.

There was a gap to the right though and the person in 29A/K sometimes tried to squeeze through, so it wasn't all roses.
 

peteb

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No, but having walked through first class on an international flight, silent except for someone's toddler having a tantrum why would you bother?!!!
 

GodAtum

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I used to travel First class on Emirates from Heathrow to Kuala Lumpur via Dubai. That was OK, but hated my sleep getting interrupted! When BA put on direct flights, I started taking them in First as it was much more enjoyable. When I travel to NYC, I take Virgin Upper Class as I prefer their lounges and it's a short flight.
 

miami

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but hated my sleep getting interrupted

I find a middle east stopover great - If I have a bed heading to the far east I'll sleep well, but I'll end up jet lagged far worse than if I either have a change of planes in the gulf, or have a poor night sleep in a seat direct.
 
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