Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Ediswan]

That relies on the great British public being responsible enough to move the arm back and then secure it in place. Too many will take the lazy option of just unplugging and moving it enough so they can drive off.

Pretty much everybody puts the fuel hose back in the pump, even at self service.

 

[gg1]

Pretty much everybody puts the fuel hose back in the pump, even at self service.

The main difference here is putting the hose back is quicker and easier than folding an arm with a cable back to it's correct position then locking it. Also petrol stations are generally staffed.

 

[Ediswan]

The main difference here is putting the hose back is quicker and easier than folding an arm with a cable back to it's correct position then locking it. Also petrol stations are generally staffed.

When I said 'self service', I should have made it clear that I had in mind automated/unstaffed locations.

However, this is clearly seen by some as 'too difficult' so I will cease debating and wait to see what happens in the real world.

In parting, here is an example from 2016 of roadside petrol pumps using the swinging arm system. I do not know if it is still there.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.9...4!1sVdl8peP33XuAt4jcfgYPWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[Roast Veg]

It is of course perfectly possible to have swinging arms that "fall" into whatever position is most desirable when not held in place by the locking plug...

 

[AM9]

When I said 'self service', I should have made it clear that I had in mind automated/unstaffed locations.

However, this is clearly seen by some as 'too difficult' so I will cease debating and wait to see what happens in the real world.

In parting, here is an example from 2016 of roadside petrol pumps using the swinging arm system. I do not know if it is still there.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.9...4!1sVdl8peP33XuAt4jcfgYPWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

OK, even if it was allowed (which I doubt), that isn't the same as cluttering a continuous length of road with swinging gantries and cables just because every car owner wants to service their vehicle on a public footpath. Don't forget, if one car owner is allowed then every other one would claim the right.

 

[reddragon]

Well said. Long distance driving is impossible with an ev. I t would take me ages to see my family in England, having to charge every 200kms. Also I live I a town where I don't have my own parking space. I have to park where there is a space. It would be impossible to charge an ev unless every parking space has it's own charger. Very expensive.
Also the environmental damage caused by battery manufacturing and disposal is always ignored in discussions about electric vehicles. Quick charging also reduces the lifespan of batteries so you need to replace them more often. The electricity that will be needed to charge them is also never mentioned. It will take more than wind turbines and solar panels to charge up all the electric vehicles on our future roads.

Clearly you knowledge isn't as an EV owner.

This summer I drove my 40kW Nissan LEAF to Portugal and back via the ferry to Spain. 8 hours driving and 2h30 charging whilst we had food breaks in nice facilities. In my last diesel I could drive that in 6h30 plus a 30 min splash & dash. If I had a better longer range EV I could match the time I achieved in my diesel.

Next year I will have a longer range EV so am driving all the way via France.

So exactly what is impossible to then?

Batteries.
Currently batteries have a life of 25 years split between prime use in a car and secondary use as energy storage. Oil is burnt once.
An EV run on the worlds dirtiest power generation has 50% of an ICE emission figure. In the UK an EV charged at night is under 20% of an ICE and is getting better fast
Batteries can be manufactured from a multitude of materials. Oil only has one origin and it's finite.
Quick chargers do not reduce the lifespan of a battery on any cars made today with maybe the exception of a LEAF. Nobody replaces an EV battery except for a higher capacity pack so how can it be more often?
Generation capacity is based on a winters evening peak. There's capacity at night to charge all EVs at once.

 

[HST274]

Well said. Long distance driving is impossible with an ev. I t would take me ages to see my family in England, having to charge every 200kms. Also I live I a town where I don't have my own parking space. I have to park where there is a space. It would be impossible to charge an ev unless every parking space has it's own charger. Very expensive.
Also the environmental damage caused by battery manufacturing and disposal is always ignored in discussions about electric vehicles. Quick charging also reduces the lifespan of batteries so you need to replace them more often. The electricity that will be needed to charge them is also never mentioned. It will take more than wind turbines and solar panels to charge up all the electric vehicles on our future roads.

Does that argument in itself ignore the millions of car pouring fumes into the air? Surely the difference is enough to make them better?

 

[AM9]

Well said. Long distance driving is impossible with an ev. I t would take me ages to see my family in England, having to charge every 200kms. Also I live I a town where I don't have my own parking space. I have to park where there is a space. It would be impossible to charge an ev unless every parking space has it's own charger. Very expensive.
Also the environmental damage caused by battery manufacturing and disposal is always ignored in discussions about electric vehicles. Quick charging also reduces the lifespan of batteries so you need to replace them more often. The electricity that will be needed to charge them is also never mentioned. It will take more than wind turbines and solar panels to charge up all the electric vehicles on our future roads.

This post indicates little research into the subject and it seems to me that it is driven by an unwillingness to accept that in a relatively short time, driving ICE vehicles will start getting quite expensive and far less convenient. The average mileage per day in private cars is about 20 miles, That would take around an hour to replace the charge on a basic (8kW) charger. On a medium speed charger (22kW - 50kW) it would take between 22 and 10 minutes. That's about how long it would take to do a 20 item food shop. So if off-street parking spaces with chargers were located in neighbourhoods where on-street parking is current, an average 2-3 hour stint per-week would satisfy almost everybody. Those who want to do that 400 mile holiday journey twice a year can easily charge on these neighbourhood chargers or go to a high-speed station (150kW-250kW) and give themselves that 200 mile range in less than 30 minutes, as would a necessary mid journey refill at a service area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does that argument in itself ignore the millions of car pouring fumes into the air? Surely the difference is enough to make them better?

Particulate reduction at the point of use makes EVs better if they were charged on 100% coal fired energy.

 

[HST274]

Particulate reduction at the point of use makes EVs better if they were charged on 100% coal fired energy.

As I thought yes. Plus they are very quiet

 

[reddragon]

Particulate reduction at the point of use makes EVs better if they were charged on 100% coal fired energy.

Also EVs only emit 10% of the brake dust due to regen braking.

 

[Ediswan]

Also EVs only emit 10% of the brake dust due to regen braking.

What is the current thinking on particulates from tyre and road wear ? Some articles say it will be greater due to greater weight. Others say it will be less due to more sophisticated traction control. Credible numbers are ellusive.

 

[reddragon]

What is the current thinking on particulates from tyre and road wear ? Some articles say it will be greater due to greater weight. Others say it will be less due to more sophisticated traction control. Credible numbers are ellusive.

That is a tricky one as nobody has done verifiable research.

EV drivers drive smoother so less
EVs are heavier so more
Cars are getting bigger so more
EVs use harder tyres so less
EVs will soon weight less than an ICE so less

For me tyres have worn out 10% faster

 

[Bald Rick]

What is the current thinking on particulates from tyre and road wear ? Some articles say it will be greater due to greater weight. Others say it will be less due to more sophisticated traction control. Credible numbers are ellusive.

Either way, an EV produces considerably fewer particulates than an ICE car.

 

[reddragon]

For most of my life I drove old second hand cars, usually bough at 5-7 years old and run them until uneconomical to repair / maintain. I kept good records on costs, capital, maintenance, tax and fuel.

When I decided to switch to EV in 2016 I looked at my real long term monthly cost and the cost of PCP plus 'fuel', no taxes and minimal maintenance for a brand new EV was lower than my old bangers. I switched.

Each time I have switched to the next EV, my third is ordered, the monthly cost has gone down and the product features have gone up. Range has gone from 107 to 150 and next 250 miles each for a lower cost.


What I do worry about is the original question posed. EVs cost almost nothing to run. Summer rates for me are free and winter costs 1.25p/mile. Tyre wear actually costs me more per mile each year than 'fuel'. As a result, no public transport trip will ever cost me less and that is a key issue.

Where I live all public transport has faded away, the station needs a car to reach and bike storage facilities are pitiful. Even then I'd need an e-bike to climb the 120m steep hill home on an unlit twisty 60 mph road packed with blind SUV drivers. To make matters worse we have an appalling train service every day since all the 387s were diverted away to cover for failed 800s. Services are hourly at best and used to be 4 an hour at peaks. Oxford used to take 30 mins, now its 2-3 hours by train.

We need a transport policy!

An excellent place to keep up on this is from Robert Llewelyn on the Fully Charged show.

In his news show he talks about over sized SUVs, talks to Energy UK about the energy crisis, our failure on domestic heating (what Insulate Britain are on about) etc

 

[DustyBin]

What I do worry about is the original question posed. EVs cost almost nothing to run. Summer rates for me are free and winter costs 1.25p/mile. Tyre wear actually costs me more per mile each year than 'fuel'. As a result, no public transport trip will ever cost me less and that is a key issue.

In addition to this, some drivers such as myself avoid very short trips as they don’t do the vehicle a lot of good and they are highly inefficient as the engine doesn’t get up to normal operating temperature (these aren’t the only reasons I hasten to add!). Neither is an issue with an EV so a two minute trip to the corner shop etc. is as good as “free” and I’m sure some people will take advantage.

 

[reddragon]

In addition to this, some drivers such as myself avoid very short trips as they don’t do the vehicle a lot of good and they are highly inefficient as the engine doesn’t get up to normal operating temperature (these aren’t the only reasons I hasten to add!). Neither is an issue with an EV so a two minute trip to the corner shop etc. is as good as “free” and I’m sure some people will take advantage.

It would cost me £1 in warming up & clouds of pollution to do a short trip in my old diesel. A summer trip of 200 yards costs me nowt.

 

[cornishjohn]

Particulate reduction at the point of use makes EVs better if they were charged on 100% coal fired energy.

Maybe, but according to the government website, there were nearly 32 million UK registered cars in 2020. A 199x model VW Polo might reasonably have a 55kW engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Polo_Mk3). I'm guessing this is "typical", although many cars are larger. I make that 1760 GW of installed motive power. Assuming typical car use of three hours per day, we still need then need 220 GW of power to go all electric.

Alternatively, suppose that it takes 5 minutes to fill up a petrol car at a service station.

We are told that 20 miles driving

take<s> around an hour to replace the charge on a basic (8kW) charger. On a medium speed charger (22kW - 50kW) it would take between 22 and 10 minutes.

So on our 200 miler we still need a 100 minutes to recharge. Apparently a high speed charger on 250 kW might get that to "less than 30 minutes". So if our present petrol pump can fill us up in 5 minutes say, every motorway service station will need 30/5 = six times as many chargers to match present demand.

I don't really "care" whether we use petrol or electricity, but the infrastructure CHANGE required seems to be underestimated or underdeclared. When are lorries going electric?

 

[87 027]

If we are facing the prospect of both petrol/diesel shortages at the pumps, and wider structural energy supply issues, then from a driver's perspective would a plug-in hybrid offer the most flexibility?

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe, but according to the government website, there were nearly 32 million UK registered cars in 2020. A 199x model VW Polo might reasonably have a 55kW engine. I make that 1760 GW of installed motive power. Assuming typical car use of three hours per day, we still need then need 220 GW of power to go all electric.

Alternatively, suppose that it takes 5 minutes to fill up a petrol car at a serivce station.

We are told that 20 miles driving

So on our 200 miler we still need a 100 minutes to recharge. Apparently a high speed charger

but typical car use is, on average, about 45 minutes a day, so divide that 220GW by 4.

And a 55kW engine is not being used at full power for the time it is in use, far from it. And the transmission can’t return energy back into the fuel tank like an EV can do. So divide again by 5.

if every one of the 32-35m cars / vans went electric; we’d need around another 10 GW power generation. You can get to this number by another route: that number of vehicles, average 7,000 miles, average 3 miles / kWh…

 

[DustyBin]

In reality most have a very limited range on Electric. I know I’m repeating myself here but personally I think I’ll make the jump from petrol to full EV (when however I’m not sure). Other than tax benefits over petrol I can’t see any advantage of a hybrid.

 

[Factotum]

The idea was that the support would only be swung out over the road when there was a vehicle there to be chargerd. That covers cyclists and parking. I doubt it is beyond the wit of man to figure out a way of securing the free end when not in use.

Even a witless man can suggest that the cable is wound back onto a reel when not in use

However, this is clearly seen by some as 'too difficult' so I will cease debating and wait to see what happens in the real world.

This sub thread really does illustrate that there are two kind of people: those who seek problems and those who seek solutions
;

 

[gg1]

Even a witless man can suggest that the cable is wound back onto a reel when not in use



This sub thread really does illustrate that there are two kind of people: those who seek problems and those who seek solutions
;

The 'problem' is the general selfishness and laziness of a significant minority of the population, it's naive in the extreme to think everyone will be responsible enough to fold an overhead arm back to it's stowed position, then either lock the end of the cable so it's not swinging loose or roll it onto it's reel. If it was merely inconvenient when this happens we could live with the problem, but it's not, it's actively dangerous.

 

[AM9]

In reality most have a very limited range on Electric. I know I’m repeating myself here but personally I think I’ll make the jump from petrol to full EV (when however I’m not sure). Other than tax benefits over petrol I can’t see any advantage of a hybrid.

Tax benefits are the only benefit that you can see at the moment as is the limited range issue. To look at the other side of the coin, the disbenefits of continuing to drive an IC engined vehicle will become progressively more onerous.
On the cost front, the need to collect the equivalent of fuel duty on EV use will inevitably involve some kind of road use charge. As fuel duty partially compensates for the environmental impact of the fuel use, I believe that it is likely that the road charging system will apply to all powered road use (including IC powered vehicles), so there will be an incremental cost of running an IC engined car.
Then there is the increasing unacceptability of vehicle NOx pollution in towns and cities. Local authorities will gradually tighten the restrictions on vehicles that add to the problem. This will of course be backed by an electorate that is increasing EV savvy.

 

[DustyBin]

Tax benefits are the only benefit that you can see at the moment as is the limited range issue. To look at the other side of the coin, the disbenefits of continuing to drive an IC engined vehicle will become progressively more onerous.
On the cost front, the need to collect the equivalent of fuel duty on EV use will inevitably involve some kind of road use charge. As fuel duty partially compensates for the environmental impact of the fuel use, I believe that it is likely that the road charging system will apply to all powered road use (including IC powered vehicles), so there will be an incremental cost of running an IC engined car.
Then there is the increasing unacceptability of vehicle NOx pollution in towns and cities. Local authorities will gradually tighten the restrictions on vehicles that add to the problem. This will of course be backed by an electorate that is increasing EV savvy.

I was talking about hybrids just to be clear (I’m not sure if you realised).

 

[gg1]

In reality most have a very limited range on Electric. I know I’m repeating myself here but personally I think I’ll make the jump from petrol to full EV (when however I’m not sure). Other than tax benefits over petrol I can’t see any advantage of a hybrid.

Better fuel consumption and reduced brake wear, so less particulates from brake dust and longer life of pads and disks.

 

[reddragon]

So on our 200 miler we still need a 100 minutes to recharge. Apparently a high speed charger on 250 kW might get that to "less than 30 minutes". So if our present petrol pump can fill us up in 5 minutes say, every motorway service station will need 30/5 = six times as many chargers to match present demand.

I don't really "care" whether we use petrol or electricity, but the infrastructure CHANGE required seems to be underestimated or underdeclared. When are lorries going electric?

Most new EVs can take 200 miles on a charge in their stride on one charge and can recharge that volume in 40 mins. The best are even better.

but typical car use is, on average, about 45 minutes a day, so divide that 220GW by 4.

And a 55kW engine is not being used at full power for the time it is in use, far from it. And the transmission can’t return energy back into the fuel tank like an EV can do. So divide again by 5.

if every one of the 32-35m cars / vans went electric; we’d need around another 10 GW power generation. You can get to this number by another route: that number of vehicles, average 7,000 miles, average 3 miles / kWh…

The simple fact is that there is plenty of spare Generation over night when most charge an EV

In reality most have a very limited range on Electric. I know I’m repeating myself here but personally I think I’ll make the jump from petrol to full EV (when however I’m not sure). Other than tax benefits over petrol I can’t see any advantage of a hybrid.

A hybrid has all the dis-benefits of both tech but little of the benefits.

Apart from City EVs most now do >200 miles

 

[DelW]

In addition to this, some drivers such as myself avoid very short trips as they don’t do the vehicle a lot of good and they are highly inefficient as the engine doesn’t get up to normal operating temperature (these aren’t the only reasons I hasten to add!). Neither is an issue with an EV so a two minute trip to the corner shop etc. is as good as “free” and I’m sure some people will take advantage.

That's one of the reasons that I changed to a PHEV when I retired. I'm happy to do short trips to vary the start points of my daily walks, to get heavier shopping, etc. I wouldn't have wanted to do such trips in my previous 2 litre diesel which took 10 - 15 minutes to warm up. Its particulate filter wouldn't have liked them either.
My local Sainsbury's offers free charging, so around a half hour shop there gives me (almost*) free travel there and back.
It's also very low-stress to drive, no clutch or gear changing needed (although you can change gear manually when running on petrol), and of course no engine noise on local use.
*Obviously there is some added tyre wear etc.

 

[trebor79]

So, I'm just on my way back from a business trip to Glasgow and Ayrshire. Whilst there I hired a BMW i3 from a car club for the princely sum of £38/day.
This is the first time I've driven an electric vehicle, having been sceptical about them, principally over range and practicality. Yhe i3 has what I have considered to be an impractically short range of about 170 miles. As I wouldn't be doing very long journeys I figured I could live with it and get a useful insight into electric car use. I've already been planning on my next car being electric, but the long range models are very expensive.

I have to say I was absolutely blown away by the car, and the charging experience. When I picked it up, there wasn't a lot of charge in it (the charging post I think was faulty as it wasn't charging when I arrived and I couldn't persuade it to charge when I dropped it off last night). So I drove to charging post en route to Ayr. Faulty. Drove to another one nearby. No longer there. The car said it had enough range to get to Kilmarnock where the ChargePoint Scotland app showed lots of charging points. I arrived at a car park next to an athletics tracks which had a 7 bay EV charging station at one end. Plugged into a type 2 socket, this was going to take some time to charge. I gent charging his Mercedes point out I could remove the lower cover on the car charge port and use the CCS cable, which is about 5 times faster. I did that and had 150 miles of range added whilst I went for a coffee.

The driving experience was very relaxing, excellent acceleration performance so overtaking and pulling way from junctions is so much easier. And with just a little practice I got used to the regenerative braking and found I didn't need to use the friction brakes at all unless I needed to stop in a real hurry. BMW have got the throttle response just right. When the car is at rest the first part of the throttle can be used to move the car very precisely. If someone asked you to move it 1mm and no more, you can do that. Once underway, that part of the pedal travel becomes the regenerative brake again very precise and with a little practice you can draw up precisely at traffic lights and junctions without using the brake pedal.

I found the range was fine for a days business travel to various meetings all over Ayrshire and then driving back to my hotel in Prestwick. There were a couple of rapid chargers a mile in either direction from my hotel, so 40 minutes catching up on email and that was the car ready for the following days business.

In short, having previously dismissed anything with less than 200 miles range (and preferably 250+) as utterly impractical, I think I'd have to think very carefully about whether that extra range is worth the extra cost.

I was also impressed with the ChargePlace Scotland network. Completely free to use (I guess the Scottish taxpayer is paying for the infrastructure and electricity). I did have a couple of issues with chargers that wouldn't switch on from the app, but a quick phonecall and they turned it on remotely for me - and it is literally "I'm at charger <number> and I can't get it to turn on with the app" "OK, it should be on for you now". No going through menus and having to give your name and reams of account details.
I did find that none of the charging posts that we primarily branded with something other than ChargePlace Scotland (eg BP or InstaVolt) would work through the ChargePlace Scotland app. So I stopped cursing the previous user when I too couldn't get it to charge after I'd parked it back up in its bay (but had left over 100 miles of range anyway). But I just avoided those (and they all tend to be quite slow chargers anyway).

So I will absolutely buy an EV as soon as I possibly can. I am no longer at all sceptical.

The car club aspect worked well too. Absurdly cheap really, and all went faultlessly. Even when I got locked out of the car because I foolishly thought I'd booked it to end and hour later than I actually had, they just extended my booking for me there and then.
It's actually inspired me to investigate the possibility of setting up a local car club - EVs are and will continue to be out of the price range of many people (me included at present) and this kind of arrangement could be the solution for many in the future.

 

[py_megapixel]

The answer is simple, and it will be charging points on small pedestals every 10-12 metres on the pavement. Someone will make a fair few quid installing them.

They'd have to be smaller than the current public chargers that are being installed, both to avoid taking up large amounts of pavement space and to keep the NIMBYs at bay.
Alternatively could some device which acts as both an EV charging station and a lamp post be designed? I suspect it could.

From https://twitter.com/matvenn/status/1442182618271805446
"Blocking off the whole pavement so you can charge your SUV"

I'd personally say that's a separate issue to EV charging. I've seen plenty of vehicles parked like that (or worse), both electric and ICE ones.

One thing worthy of consideration in large areas of relatively cheap terraced housing (so most cities outside of London) is purchasing some of it to knock down and create off-road charging bays. One end-terrace house plus its yard would probably give you 6-8 nose-in bays (such houses tend to be quite narrow facing the street but usually go back a fairly long way).

I feel like that would be politically

That relies on the great British public being responsible enough to move the arm back and then secure it in place. Too many will take the lazy option of just unplugging and moving it enough so they can drive off.

Charge per minute that the charger is used and base this calculation on when the cable is out of its holder. As long as this was clearly communicated, people would soon realise that they need to re-seat the cable before driving off! You could set up some kind of system where the driver gets a text alert once the car stops drawing power.
(In fact, ideally, let some people get caught out by it and then refund their money as a goodwill gesture to great fanfare in the press).

Rubbish. Most households have two cars, sometimes even more. Typically they are exactly as you describe - a small runaround which basically never leaves the town and a large family estate or SUV.

I think the problem is that in households that would typically have operated like that, the sort of car bought as the runaround has gradually increased in size. It seems to be fairly common now to see two of those ridiculous SUVs parked on a driveway, when in the past you might have seen one large family car or SUV along with something like a Fiesta, Corsa or even a Picanto.

In more affluent areas of the country, this leads to nonsense like one person commuting on their own in a Land Rover Discovery when in reality they could do the same on a bicycle.