Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[paul1609]

Eton's a bit further, unfortunately!

Beat me to it, other Network Rail Executives Offspring Schools are available!

 

[Domh245]

That engine doesn't nearly sound big enough for a large vehicle! Is it turbocharged?

It is indeed turbocharged, like pretty much all small capacity engines that are appearing/have appeared in medium and large vehicles. Puts out 200PS/280Nm (though it's available in China, where the 3 cylinder engines are built before being shipped to Halewood, in a very eco-friendly 160PS spec FWD as the entry level model)

The normal 2L diesel 4 cylinders for the evoque do 165/200PS depending on tune, with 380/430 Nm respectively. It won't feel particularly fast if you're driving on the engine alone, but it's entirely sufficient - add the electric motor in to the mix and it's positively nippy - a 6.1s 0-60, (quickest of any engine option) courtesy of 540Nm combined

Eton's a bit further, unfortunately!

Fortunately you can board at Eton! Harrow is right on the edge of EV only, depending whereabouts in St Albans our hypothetical school runner may be!

 

[DustyBin]

It is indeed turbocharged, like pretty much all small capacity engines that are appearing/have appeared in medium and large vehicles. Puts out 200PS/280Nm (though it's available in China, where the 3 cylinder engines are built before being shipped to Halewood, in a very eco-friendly 160PS spec FWD as the entry level model)

Interestingly the 1.5 3 cylinder in my Fiesta makes 200PS and 290Nm so very similar. It’s a lot for a small engine; 20 years ago you’d have been looking at a 2.0 turbo or 3.0 V6 to get similar figures (the engine is very tuneable too!).

The Fiesta is also averaging 37mpg which is more than any car I’ve owned before and a definite positive seeing as it’s my daily “runabout”. If they were to make a hybrid with the same performance and (this seems to be the difficult bit) the same handling capabilities I’d probably buy one.

 

[Bald Rick]

Interestingly the 1.5 3 cylinder in my Fiesta makes 200PS and 290Nm so very similar. It’s a lot for a small engine; 20 years ago you’d have been looking at a 2.0 turbo or 3.0 V6 to get similar figures (the engine is very tuneable too!).

22 years ago you could get an Audi with a 1.8T developing 225PS, tuneable to 250+.

(I may or may not have had one )

 

[biko]

I'd say "cars can be a problem when used in the wrong context". They are very useful and they neither should nor will go away completely, though switching them to pure electric is the right way to go to remove pollution at the point of use.

City centres are not the place for them, of course.

The Netherlands is maybe a bit different from the UK in this regard, though:

• It's a small country
• Transport demand is a web, and the railway and complementary bus services provide for that
• It's flat, so cycling is easy and pleasurable
• It's mostly built-up and so journeys tend to be short and places where a car is a negative are much more common

I think in many ways the North West of England is like a mini-Netherlands, but obviously the hills limit the usefulness of the traditional bicycle.

My statement was maybe just a bit too strong, I should have added 'in urban areas'. Of course outside cities, cars are the only feasible way of transport and don't cause problems (if electric).

My point is not specific for one country, it is a worldwide point. Cars take much space in urban areas and dominate streets. Making streets more suitable for walking and cycling is always better and will make people happier and healthier. Some people and car manufacturers think 'EVs are sustainable, so no problem having more cars'. But it takes a lot of space and a lot of energy, which makes it still unsustainable.

I don't believe the Netherlands are fundamentally different from the UK except for the flatness and thus high bicycle use. As johncrossley also mentions in his reply, most of the Netherlands is quite similar to the urbanized areas outside London, such as the Midlands. A large number of quite big towns and cities not that far apart, but no real mega cities. Public transport provision is also similar, many rural areas in the east and north are not well served by buses and journeys can take ages if not travelling to the nearest bigger town.

Hills in many English towns are not so severe to prevent someone of average fitness to make a short journey of 1-2 miles, the kind of journey the Dutch typically do on their heavy bikes. In any case, hills can be overcome by electric bikes, but bizarrely they are far more popular in the Netherlands where they don't really need them!

They are indeed very popular in the Netherlands and mean people can cycle longer distances, also when they have some underlying health condition. Many school children use them nowadays to cycle for example 10 miles to their school.

I wonder if the differences between England (in particular) and the Netherlands are exaggerated (mostly by people who like things to stay they way they are). Vast regions of England are heavily urbanised and British towns are compact. They were mostly built before the age of car dependence so are dominated by narrow roads and terraced or semi-detached housing. It is nothing like the US where even poor people live in detached houses with large gaps between houses.

Yes, I think so too, see what I mentioned to Bletchleyite. Towns such as Nottingham have similar size, types of neighborhoods etc. I think buses are more important in the UK, while cycling is more important in the Netherlands.

I've actually heard Dutch people justify the need for road building in the Netherlands because they don't have a huge city like London where it is easy to justify rail construction and where car usage is impractical. The Netherlands may be urbanised, but the vast majority of people live in small to medium sized towns near a motorway or main road, meaning that almost all trips between towns can be carried out by car with relative ease. There are nearly always gaps between towns, meaning there is space available to fit in new roads. And they've built and widened a lot of roads in the last decade.

This is absolutely true. Most people own and use a car. My household doesn't have one, but we are the only ones in our street to not have a car. I live within walking distance of an large station, but also near the ring road and motorway. So most people use the car. In the 4 large cities as they are often called (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht) car ownership is lower and having a car really impractical, but the rest of the country is car-oriented.

To get back to the real topic and draw the conclusion, cars are still a problem, independent of country.

 

[DustyBin]

22 years ago you could get an Audi with a 1.8T developing 225PS, tuneable to 250+.

(I may or may not have had one )

That’s a decent output for a sub 2.0 engine back then. Didn’t they get it to 250PS from the factory in the very last of the first generation cars?

In 1984 the Ford RS200 managed just over 250PS from a 1.8T but that engine was rather special I suppose….

 

[Bald Rick]

That’s a decent output for a sub 2.0 engine back then. Didn’t they get it to 250PS from the factory in the very last of the first generation cars?

In 1984 the Ford RS200 managed just over 250PS from a 1.8T but that engine was rather special I suppose….

It was, and yes I think they did. Best car I’ve ever had.

 

[Aictos]

My main concern with electric vehicles such as the Toyota Prius is the cost, they're more expensive then similar petrol or diesel vehicles which puts them out of reach of the common man as they're priced at such that only those with the means can afford them.

This can only be resolved by massively reducing the initial cost of electric vehicles by mass producing and making them affordable for the common man.

In much the same way that Volkswagen made their Beetle vehicle affordable to the masses in Nazi era Germany.

The other main concern is the time to charge the battery at existing service stations but also the availability of such charging points at service points.

Until such a time that those concerns are resolved, the electric car will remain the domain of the wealthy.

A few years ago, a affordable vehicle like a Toyota Prius would have suited me just fine as the majority of my driving was city based with the odd motorway jaunt but even then as indeed the case is still today, those such vehicles are too expensive.

 

[liam456]

Could a tax on DC fast chargers with say >50kWh capacity rather than indiscriminate road pricing be an alternative to funding the growing gap in VED from electric car owners?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could a tax on DC fast chargers with say >50kWh capacity rather than indiscriminate road pricing be an alternative to funding the growing gap in VED from electric car owners?

Why should it? If we want to moderate usage, then road pricing (or at least a mileage-based fee roughly equating to fuel duty) is the way to go.

The advantage of road pricing is that it isn't indiscriminate - little village roads in an area with no public transport could be free, but roads into city centres at 8:30am could be £10/mile, and it could also exempt certain classes of user, e.g. blue badge holders. That would drive behaviour we want to see, for example if you live in a rural area with no public transport you should be encouraged to park and ride into the city rather than just driving all the way.

 

[liam456]

Why should it? If we want to moderate usage, then road pricing (or at least a mileage-based fee roughly equating to fuel duty) is the way to go.

Much easier political pill to swallow for one. I think the optics would be better if the goal of the tax was travel more sustainably, rather than travel less. It would also incentivise the use of solar panels to charge at home or EV charging at off peak times at home, evening out electricity demand.

The advantage of road pricing is that it isn't indiscriminate - little village roads in an area with no public transport could be free, but roads into city centres at 8:30am could be £10/mile, and it could also exempt certain classes of user, e.g. blue badge holders. That would drive behaviour we want to see, for example if you live in a rural area with no public transport you should be encouraged to park and ride into the city rather than just driving all the way.

Will this be enforced by everyone having a GPS linked black-box phoning home to the DVLA, or Congestion charge style cameras literally everywhere?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much easier political pill to swallow for one.

Possibly.

I think the optics would be better if the goal of the tax was travel more sustainably, rather than travel less.

The two are interlinked and cannot be separated. Let's use a practical example around Cambridge. Imagine you live in, say, the village of Woodhurst, just north of St Ives, which appears to have a three-journey "shopper bus" service and nowt else. Imagine that it was free to go to St Ives, because that's your nearest town with local services and there is no useful bus service for most purposes, but then that the A1307 and A14 into Cambridge for 9am was £2 per mile, say (the £10 example was a bit silly). You're going to drive to the Park and Ride and use the Busway, aren't you? That's the kind of thing we want to achieve from such a scheme.

Without road pricing you'll likely just drive all the way.

Of course, road pricing wouldn't just be for EVs, but also for petrol and diesel vehicles, so you would pay twice, effectively. EV now seems more attractive, doesn't it?

That sort of thing.

It would also incentivise the use of solar panels to charge at home or EV charging at off peak times at home, evening out electricity demand.

That can (and likely will) be done by having variable electricity pricing a la Economy 7 (but more granular). If electricity is cheap at that time no reason not to fast charge.

Will this be enforced by everyone having a GPS linked black-box phoning home to the DVLA, or Congestion charge style cameras literally everywhere?

GPS linked "black boxes" are likely to be the way. For those who don't think they are being tracked everywhere when driving anyway (due to the amount of ANPR coverage) and so argue privacy, an alternative could be offered of simple per-mile payment at a high rate, I suppose.

It could be done with privacy, anyway, with the "black box" doing the calculation itself based on downloaded maps and timebands and just reporting back the current "balance" periodically to ensure nobody was "messing with the clock".

 

[liam456]

The two are interlinked and cannot be separated. Let's use a practical example around Cambridge. Imagine you live in, say, the village of Woodhurst, just north of St Ives, which appears to have a three-journey "shopper bus" service and nowt else. Imagine that it was free to go to St Ives, because that's your nearest town with local services and there is no useful bus service for most purposes, but then that the A1307 and A14 into Cambridge for 9am was £2 per mile, say (the £10 example was a bit silly). You're going to drive to the Park and Ride and use the Busway, aren't you? That's the kind of thing we want to achieve from such a scheme.

That is fair enough. I understand well what a granular road pricing scheme tries to achieve, same as peak/off-peak tickets on trains or anywhere else for that matter.

Of course, road pricing wouldn't just be for EVs, but also for petrol and diesel vehicles, so you would pay twice, effectively. EV now seems more attractive, doesn't it?

It's just a shame that most green policies revolve around punitive measures. No longer is life better for subsequent generations; I have to travel less or pay more now.

GPS linked "black boxes" are likely to be the way. For those who don't think they are being tracked everywhere when driving anyway (due to the amount of ANPR coverage) and so argue privacy, an alternative could be offered of simple per-mile payment at a high rate, I suppose.

It could be done with privacy, anyway, with the "black box" doing the calculation itself based on downloaded maps and timebands and just reporting back the current "balance" periodically to ensure nobody was "messing with the clock".

Great, so now my right to privacy is in tatters too. Or I pay more to not have it infringed? I hope for that last suggestion it will be an open-source standard that is mandated....

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's just a shame that most green policies revolve around punitive measures. No longer is life better for subsequent generations; I have to travel less or pay more now.

"Better" is relative - people who live in busy areas of towns will have a "better life" without all that pollution.

 

[liam456]

"Better" is relative - people who live in busy areas of towns will have a "better life" without all that pollution.

Fair point, there is always that looming in the background. Can't argue with that.

 

[ashkeba]

"Better" is relative - people who live in busy areas of towns will have a "better life" without all that pollution.

And travelling more by trains and bicycle or ebike or even escooter is a better life than driving too!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Great, so now my right to privacy is in tatters too. Or I pay more to not have it infringed? I hope for that last suggestion it will be an open-source standard that is mandated....

ANPR is already tracking you everywhere. You do not have any privacy when driving a motor vehicle. If you require privacy (at least until facial recognition CCTV becomes prevalent), you can walk, cycle or use public transport or taxis paying cash.

 

[liam456]

ANPR is already tracking you everywhere. You do not have any privacy when driving a motor vehicle. If you require privacy (at least until facial recognition CCTV becomes prevalent), you can walk, cycle or use public transport or taxis paying cash.

ANPR is tracking me, so to not be tracked, go to where there is CCTV on public transport? Facial recognition CCTV is here already? And if it weren't, an investigation would be pretty easy?
There most definitely aren't ANPR cameras everywhere in any case.

 

[Domh245]

ANPR is already tracking you everywhere. You do not have any privacy when driving a motor vehicle. If you require privacy (at least until facial recognition CCTV becomes prevalent), you can walk, cycle or use public transport or taxis paying cash.

We've had this discussion before in a more relevant thread, but ANPR isn't tracking you everywhere by any means - it's tracking your vehicle everywhere that there's a camera you drive past. There's no cameras within around half a mile of my house (driving) and their position relative to junctions means there's no practical way of knowing where a car actually may be between those two. A GPS system on the other hand knows exactly where the vehicle is, all the time that it is on (if not always). I'm comfortable with a system knowing my car might be on 2 miles of road between 2 points, I'm rather less comfortable with it knowing it's to the nearest metre outside my house

Don't try and make these false comparisons.

 

[Bald Rick]

Could a tax on DC fast chargers with say >50kWh capacity rather than indiscriminate road pricing be an alternative to funding the growing gap in VED from electric car owners?

Why should charging more quickly be taxed? Surely it’s use of the road space that is the issue, not how quickly someone wants to charge up.

 

[DustyBin]

And travelling more by trains and bicycle or ebike or even escooter is a better life than driving too!

Debatable, but each to their own!

On a serious note, and I’ve made this point before, there’s a risk of killing off what’s left of our high streets if people can’t drive to them. If people can’t throw their bags etc. in the boot of their car they’ll go to a retail park instead. This is already an issue and needs consideration.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Debatable, but each to their own!

On a serious note, and I’ve made this point before, there’s a risk of killing off what’s left of our high streets if people can’t drive to them. If people can’t throw their bags etc. in the boot of their car they’ll go to a retail park instead. This is already an issue and needs consideration.

Probably more one for the planning system, i.e. not to allow large developments when there is not a realistic plan in place for fewer than 50% of users to travel there by private car or taxi on a perpetual basis.

Another option would be a ban on free parking other than perhaps at supermarkets.

 

[Ediswan]

On a serious note, and I’ve made this point before, there’s a risk of killing off what’s left of our high streets if people can’t drive to them. If people can’t throw their bags etc. in the boot of their car they’ll go to a retail park instead. This is already an issue and needs consideration.

The mayor of Stevenage was keen to remove all free parking from the High Street in the Old Town. He was quite rude about people who disagreed with this plan. He is now the ex-mayor, lost his seat on the council in the recent elections

 

[DustyBin]

Probably more one for the planning system, i.e. not to allow large developments when there is not a realistic plan in place for fewer than 50% of users to travel there by private car or taxi on a perpetual basis.

Another option would be a ban on free parking other than perhaps at supermarkets.

The former makes sense, but doesn't help existing city/town centres (which are what I was referring to in my previous post just to be clear).

I'm not keen on the idea of banning free parking elsewhere, you'll no doubt disagree but I find that rather draconian! It's another punitive measure.

The mayor of Stevenage was keen to remove all free parking from the High Street in the Old Town. He was quite rude about people who disagreed with this plan. He is now the ex-mayor, lost his seat on the council in the recent elections

It isn't a popular policy. Like it or not, rightly or wrongly, it just isn't.

 

[edwin_m]

There are ways a black box could respect privacy. For example it could download the rate per mile for each road it travelled on, and only upload a running total of the user's remaining credit without indicating where they are - or even keep everything on board except a notification to issue a penalty if driving with expired credit (easier and less hazardous than just cutting the power). If users wanted a journey history they'd obviously have to enable upload of the necessary geographic data.

Rather than trying to tax electricity, which would be eminently evadeable, a transition arrangement might be for everyone to declare their mileage, enforced by spot checks, and pay a rate per mile that might depend on vehicle type but not on location or time. This wouldn't allow discrimination by road type or time of day, but anyone who felt discriminated against could transfer immediately to the black box option.

 

[jacobmartin]

I also think the EU released that before the Brexit.

 

[ashkeba]

On a serious note, and I’ve made this point before, there’s a risk of killing off what’s left of our high streets if people can’t drive to them. If people can’t throw their bags etc. in the boot of their car they’ll go to a retail park instead. This is already an issue and needs consideration.

This is a nasty issue. Time and again, it is demonstrated that fewer cars means higher footfall means higher sales, plus also some delivery service sales for large goods for people who do not want to drive to collect using one of the retained loading bays, because in reality despite what some say, people do not spend as much time shopping in streets that are effectivly treated as long thin car parks. So the quickest way to kill the high street shops is to keep using the street as a car park instead of a town street for people to walk, cycle, chat with friends, sit down and eat at cafes and bars, basically linger and shop, but the perception pushed by both motorists and shopkeepers is the opposite! Why?

 

[HSTEd]

There are ways a black box could respect privacy. For example it could download the rate per mile for each road it travelled on, and only upload a running total of the user's remaining credit without indicating where they are - or even keep everything on board except a notification to issue a penalty if driving with expired credit (easier and less hazardous than just cutting the power). If users wanted a journey history they'd obviously have to enable upload of the necessary geographic data.

Wouldn't the easiest way be to just have this box keep a running total of total charges incurred, and then just check it every year at the MOT and issue a bill from the increment over the last check?

 

[ABB125]

Wouldn't the easiest way be to just have this box keep a running total of total charges incurred, and then just check it every year at the MOT and issue a bill from the increment over the last check?

That doesn't allow for the "where you drive matters" element: there's no way of knowing whether you've driven 10 000 miles on B-roads or through central London.

My personal preference is to have a flat fee per mile, with additional "tolls" when you enter a city.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a nasty issue. Time and again, it is demonstrated that fewer cars means higher footfall means higher sales, plus also some delivery service sales for large goods for people who do not want to drive to collect using one of the retained loading bays, because in reality despite what some say, people do not spend as much time shopping in streets that are effectivly treated as long thin car parks. So the quickest way to kill the high street shops is to keep using the street as a car park instead of a town street for people to walk, cycle, chat with friends, sit down and eat at cafes and bars, basically linger and shop, but the perception pushed by both motorists and shopkeepers is the opposite! Why?

That isn't the comparison, though. The car park can be round the back of the shops, and the pedestrianised streets are still available for car-free enjoyment. This is how just about every UK small town centre is; go look at some on Google Street View/Aerial View. In fact it's only really London and a few others in the UK that aren't like that - even large cities like Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham are.

e.g. Ormskirk: https://www.google.com/maps/place/M...957032e3dbbd6bf!8m2!3d53.5660347!4d-2.8889425

Notably I live on a 1970s estate where the cars are hidden round the back, and out front is a tree-lined foot and cycle path, where kids can (and do) play in the street like they did before the car was a thing. It's great, though I believe in rough areas this sort of layout can pose crime issues. They can also be set a rule of "don't cross a road" and still access a very large area of the estate.