• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Have the age requirement for category D (full size bus) license changed again?

Status
Not open for further replies.

d9016

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2011
Messages
37
I was looking at a couple of different sources at the minimum age you can drive certain vehicles and I noticed that category D which went from 21 to 24 in 2013 seems to be showing as 18 on one of them. Looking at the ones that state it is 24, they also refer to European requirements that set the minimum age. Has the minimum age just dropped to 18 due to the UK now being out of the EU? I believe there were arrangements previously for First and Stagecoach to allow 19 year old drivers to be trained to drive local services remaining within 50KM of the depot, but I am on about of the general age to drive full size buses privately.

I am also aware of a rule that permitted anyone 24 or over with a standard category B to drive any bus over 30 years old (or 40 since the definition of historic vehicle apparently changed), would this be affected or has it been scrapped?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,024
Location
West Wiltshire

d9016

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2011
Messages
37
What do they mean by entitlement? There is a line stating "Otherwise, you’ll normally have to wait until you’re 24 to drive one." Can you only start training at 20 but have to wait to 24 if you want to drive a bus for leisure (preserved bus)?
 
Last edited:

Roger1973

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
590
Location
Berkshire
DVLA Leaflet INF 52 is the definitive answer to this. The current one is dated June 2020.

My understanding about the 'historic vehicle' exemption to drive a bus on a car licence was that

Driver needs to be over 21
Bus needs to be over 30
Maximum 8 passengers (grey area whether a conductor counts as one of the eight or not)
Not for business purposes / not for hire and reward

and that all four of the above circumstances must apply.

However, wording of the current INF 52 does not mention the driver being over 21. Since I'm a few years over 21, and haven't had to think about a situation involving a potential driver aged 18-20 recently, I am not sure if this is an oversight or whether this rule has changed.

I'm not aware of any legal situation that there was an age limit of 19 for (obviously companies and / or their insurers may have their own limits.)

Driving (some sorts of) PCV at 18 came in quite a while ago - broadly 18-20 (or later 18-24) drivers could do what came under 'domestic' drivers hours (up to 16 seats / local bus, but not EU / tachograph hours work.

One of the snags round this sort of thing is that the law has changed quite often over the last 30 years or so, and people tend to remember situations that applied at a particular time, or a combination of different bits, so taking anything that people on the internet (and that includes me) say is never going to be definitive advice.
 

d9016

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2011
Messages
37
INF52 seems to have age 21 for historic buses for those before 19/1/2013, after this the age limit is 24. I don't know why it still shows the old table as well. What I am wondering is if someone who passed category B recently (after the changes in 2013) wanted to drive for example a preserved 1997 Volvo Olympian or 2003 B7TL would they have to wait until both they turn 24 and the buses turn 30? By which time the CAZ might cause such vehicles to be inoperable on public roads without modification depending on the local zone rules being set.

The age of 19 was based on the rules for First bus a while ago when a friend of mine was applying for a position as a driver (if you passed category B at 17, you would have to drive for 2 years then you could start training for D).
 

CN04NRJ

Established Member
Joined
28 Nov 2019
Messages
1,711
Location
UK
I passed at 19 in 2009. Restricted to 50km radius from depot, so mainly just contracted schools where I first started.

Unrestricted from age 21.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,024
Location
West Wiltshire
I think you will find the age restriction rules used to be because insuring younger drivers cost more. However the more recent anti age discrimination legislation stopped that as no longer permitted to discriminate solely on age.

But you can have an experienced based rule that says something like must have held a full car license for at least 18 months.

My nephew got a job as First Officer with EasyJet soon after his 19th birthday, when he finished flight school, so notion can fly a plane full of passengers at 19, but not drive a bus with passengers (if trained and passed) at 19 is barmy.
 
Last edited:

90019

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2008
Messages
6,823
Location
Featherstone, West Yorkshire
I was looking at a couple of different sources at the minimum age you can drive certain vehicles and I noticed that category D which went from 21 to 24 in 2013 seems to be showing as 18 on one of them.
Cat D has been 18 since well before 2013.

I got my cat C in 2011 and cat D a few months later in 2012 when I was 20. Some companies won't employ younger drivers due to increased insurance costs, but there's no restrictions on actually getting the licences.
 

CN04NRJ

Established Member
Joined
28 Nov 2019
Messages
1,711
Location
UK
Cat D has been 18 since well before 2013.

I got my cat C in 2011 and cat D a few months later in 2012 when I was 20. Some companies won't employ younger drivers due to increased insurance costs, but there's no restrictions on actually getting the licences.

I did my PCV privately just after my 19th birthday. Got into a coach company two of my friends worked at - interview was just a photocopy of my license, tour of the yard and a spin round the block in a manual B10M.

It was only after I'd started they realised I was 19 (!!) and they had a big panic - lucky for me they were willing to pay the extra on the insurance. At the time Cardiff Bus were only recruiting 21+ so I had to wait the two years to go there.
 

Andy Pacer

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2017
Messages
2,644
Location
Leicestershire
I passed at 19 in 2009. Restricted to 50km radius from depot, so mainly just contracted schools where I first started.

Unrestricted from age 21.
I passed at 18 in 2002. I believe it was no more than 50km route length on anything registered (could be schools or works) but not a radius from the depot.
 

mb88

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2012
Messages
438
It's definitely 'on routes no longer than 50km in length' for under 21s as opposed to radius from depot. Basically you can do GB domestic work (again, determined by route length) but not EU work until you are 21. I gained my PCV at 19 in 2008.
 

CN04NRJ

Established Member
Joined
28 Nov 2019
Messages
1,711
Location
UK
I passed at 18 in 2002. I believe it was no more than 50km route length on anything registered (could be schools or works) but not a radius from the depot.

It's a long time ago, you're correct I think. Not that the company I worked for were a stickler for rules (at the time might I add - all has changed for the better there).
 

d9016

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2011
Messages
37
Cat D has been 18 since well before 2013.

I got my cat C in 2011 and cat D a few months later in 2012 when I was 20. Some companies won't employ younger drivers due to increased insurance costs, but there's no restrictions on actually getting the licences.
I have found more evidence suggesting it is currently 24. I have also heard from someone who passed B at 18 in 2018 who has been told they need to wait until they turn 24 to drive category D although they can start training at 20, they also need to pass extra CPC courses every few years since they gained B post 2013.

It's definitely 'on routes no longer than 50km in length' for under 21s as opposed to radius from depot. Basically you can do GB domestic work (again, determined by route length) but not EU work until you are 21. I gained my PCV at 19 in 2008.
I am confused as to why you can drive on busy routes carrying ~80 passengers at a younger age but you have to be older to drive your own bus with 2 or 3 of your family & friends on board since it is not domestic work.
 

Flange Squeal

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2012
Messages
1,251
I am confused as to why you can drive on busy routes carrying ~80 passengers at a younger age but you have to be older to drive your own bus with 2 or 3 of your family & friends on board since it is not domestic work.
I can only assume it was either pressure from operators due to the industry having regular shortages of drivers, or because you're doing registered services over the same roads on a regular basis rather than venturing to unfamiliar locations. But then a new 40 year old driver could just as easily come unstuck if they get a bit lost/plan a bad route in unfamiliar territory.
 

90019

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2008
Messages
6,823
Location
Featherstone, West Yorkshire
I have found more evidence suggesting it is currently 24. I have also heard from someone who passed B at 18 in 2018 who has been told they need to wait until they turn 24 to drive category D although they can start training at 20, they also need to pass extra CPC courses every few years since they gained B post 2013.
I'm not sure where you're finding this evidence, but it's wrong - it has been 18 since at least the mid 2000s and hasn't gone back up.

The only difference for younger drivers with the CPC is that if you wanf to drive professionally and gained your licence after it was introduced you have to pass the initial CPC, which is effectively two extra theory tests (your theory and practical tests are modules 1 and 3). Beyond that it's the same for everyone, with 35 hours of training required in every 5 year period.


The best source of information about HGV and bus licences is gov.uk

Getting qualified​

To become a lorry, bus or coach driver you need to:
  • have a full car licence
  • be over 18 - but there are some exceptions
  • get a professional driving qualification called the Driver Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC)

Who needs the full Driver CPC​

You must have the full Driver CPC if you drive a lorry, bus or coach as the main part of your job.
You usually need to pass 4 tests to get it, unless you have ‘acquired rights’ because of your existing driving experience.

Who does not need the full Driver CPC​

You do not need the full Driver CPC if you:
  • do not want to drive for a living, for example you want to drive for a hobby or carry passengers or goods non-commercially for personal use
  • drive in certain other situations, such as taking your vehicle for a pre-booked annual test (MOT)
You still need to pass the part 1 (theory) and part 3 (driving ability) tests of the qualification.
 

Andy Pacer

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2017
Messages
2,644
Location
Leicestershire
I'm not sure where you're finding this evidence, but it's wrong - it has been 18 since at least the mid 2000s and hasn't gone back up.

The only difference for younger drivers with the CPC is that if you wanf to drive professionally and gained your licence after it was introduced you have to pass the initial CPC, which is effectively two extra theory tests (your theory and practical tests are modules 1 and 3). Beyond that it's the same for everyone, with 35 hours of training required in every 5 year period.


The best source of information about HGV and bus licences is gov.uk
I passed mine at 18 in 2002 and am fairly certain people had done the same at least a couple of years prior to me.
 

L401CJF

Established Member
Joined
16 Oct 2019
Messages
1,443
Location
Wirral
I passed my bus license at 19 and was driving for Stagecoach, bought a 1994 Dennis Dart for myself when I was 21 which I took to the odd show etc and didn't have any issues getting insured on it etc.

As I understand it if you have the full bus license and are over 18 you can drive a preserved bus as much as you like as it doesn't fall under hire and reward etc and is basically a big car insured for Social Domestic and Pleasure. The standard insurance cover is ages 25-75 so would have to run it by the insurer first and there is an additional excess in the event of a claim, however if working as a full time bus driver getting insured on one shouldn't be an issue.

Regarding some posts above as I understand its 18plus for Domestic routes under 50km in length (although places like stagecoach Preston get around this by splitting big routes such as the X2 Preston to Liverpool in half ie Preston to Southport and Southport to Liverpool). Its 24 plus for coach work and stuff under the EU rules rather than domestic.
 

d9016

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2011
Messages
37
Someone who I have been talking to is trying to get a full PCV D as soon as possible (they are currently 18) but they have been told by the training provider they need to be 24 before they can be trained unless they go to a local operator (Arriva, Stagecoach, etc). The company also stated they needed to be 24 to drive historic buses on category B. Another concern was the ability to drive manual gearboxed buses, the person who wants to get category D has a full manual category B license but the last manual training vehicle was apparently recently scrapped which might now limit them to automatic buses only despite the manual category B.

I myself have been trying to find driver training providers that can do manual car training but due to the approaching CAZ most of these now have Euro 6, hybrid or electric training cars. It looks like it is not going to be possible for anyone new who wants to own a manual coach in the near future. I have asked around but I just get the usual "why would you want an old coach" response.
 

L401CJF

Established Member
Joined
16 Oct 2019
Messages
1,443
Location
Wirral
Someone who I have been talking to is trying to get a full PCV D as soon as possible (they are currently 18) but they have been told by the training provider they need to be 24 before they can be trained unless they go to a local operator (Arriva, Stagecoach, etc). The company also stated they needed to be 24 to drive historic buses on category B. Another concern was the ability to drive manual gearboxed buses, the person who wants to get category D has a full manual category B license but the last manual training vehicle was apparently recently scrapped which might now limit them to automatic buses only despite the manual category B.

I myself have been trying to find driver training providers that can do manual car training but due to the approaching CAZ most of these now have Euro 6, hybrid or electric training cars. It looks like it is not going to be possible for anyone new who wants to own a manual coach in the near future. I have asked around but I just get the usual "why would you want an old coach" response.
We were told when we started at Stagecoach that as we had manual car licences we could upgrade the cat D free of charge to include manual buses with no additional test. I did it myself when at the time you had to fill in a form and send it off with the license, but I'm not sure about now. This was back in 2014.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Devon Sunset

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2020
Messages
110
Location
East Lothian
I passed my test in 1987 aged 18 on a crash gearbox Leyland PD2. I was only to be driving City Sprinters in Edinburgh but because I had a full license and knew most of the routes I was often used to cover big bus work. I was restricted to 50km until I reached 21 but in effect it mad no difference as there were very few routes over that except Berwick and Dumfries. The 106 to Dunbar started at the bus station and terminated at the High Street at that time so it just scraped in.
 

Flange Squeal

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2012
Messages
1,251
We were told when we started at Stagecoach that as we had manual car licences we could upgrade the cat D free of charge to include manual buses with no additional test. I did it myself when at the time you had to fill in a form and send it off with the license, but I'm not sure about now. This was back in 2014.
It's done automatically now - if you have a manual category B car licence and pass your category D bus test in an auto, your D will come as a manual entitlement.
 

d9016

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2011
Messages
37
What classification is driving for leisure as it is between a local route and EU/tachograph? I believe no CPC is required for this although not having one might limit passengers. Is it possible to get trained with an operator that train from younger without working for them? Working as a driver would be out of the question for the individual I was referring to since they already work in a different industry and only want to do it for leisure, which might no longer be possible after CAZ (which will be in force by the time they are 24).

I don't know if the training provider they spoke to had assumed they only held an automatic license due to the majority of new drivers only having automatic now but it sounds to be the case for that. Unless it may be different with trucks due to the use of non-synchro until recently and they just misunderstood. Is it permitted to go from passing in a modern (pre-2014) manual car, then further trained in an automatic category C HGV and then be able to drive an older non-synchro ERF (is it even the same as crash gears?) and if that is the case where would any heavy gearbox training come in? Since I am under the understanding it is not possible to operate one with only standard gearbox experience?

Come to think about it, where would anyone new to driving in the UK get training for a two way clutch epicyclic box? They are different entirely and in no way possible for anyone who has just passed in a manual who does not have knowledge of how they work to operate despite it being legal for someone older with a more general license to drive one on UK roads. I know roughly of the operation of one due to having watched videos of someone in the US demonstrate it on a car they had restored but I am in no way passed out to use a similar transmission and therefore would not be allowed to do anything with one on a full category B if I somehow managed to buy one.
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
Someone who I have been talking to is trying to get a full PCV D as soon as possible (they are currently 18) but they have been told by the training provider they need to be 24 before they can be trained unless they go to a local operator (Arriva, Stagecoach, etc). The company also stated they needed to be 24 to drive historic buses on category B. Another concern was the ability to drive manual gearboxed buses, the person who wants to get category D has a full manual category B license but the last manual training vehicle was apparently recently scrapped which might now limit them to automatic buses only despite the manual category B.

I myself have been trying to find driver training providers that can do manual car training but due to the approaching CAZ most of these now have Euro 6, hybrid or electric training cars. It looks like it is not going to be possible for anyone new who wants to own a manual coach in the near future. I have asked around but I just get the usual "why would you want an old coach" response.
This leaflet (DVLA INF52) doesn't specify any lower age for the historic buses on category B rule, however insurance companies may specify additional rules. Training providers may have insurance policies that don't allow training under 24, or may have been advised that training on a tacho fitted vehicle means the EU age rules have to apply.
What classification is driving for leisure as it is between a local route and EU/tachograph? I believe no CPC is required for this although not having one might limit passengers. Is it possible to get trained with an operator that train from younger without working for them? Working as a driver would be out of the question for the individual I was referring to since they already work in a different industry and only want to do it for leisure, which might no longer be possible after CAZ (which will be in force by the time they are 24).

I don't know if the training provider they spoke to had assumed they only held an automatic license due to the majority of new drivers only having automatic now but it sounds to be the case for that. Unless it may be different with trucks due to the use of non-synchro until recently and they just misunderstood. Is it permitted to go from passing in a modern (pre-2014) manual car, then further trained in an automatic category C HGV and then be able to drive an older non-synchro ERF (is it even the same as crash gears?) and if that is the case where would any heavy gearbox training come in? Since I am under the understanding it is not possible to operate one with only standard gearbox experience?

Come to think about it, where would anyone new to driving in the UK get training for a two way clutch epicyclic box? They are different entirely and in no way possible for anyone who has just passed in a manual who does not have knowledge of how they work to operate despite it being legal for someone older with a more general license to drive one on UK roads. I know roughly of the operation of one due to having watched videos of someone in the US demonstrate it on a car they had restored but I am in no way passed out to use a similar transmission and therefore would not be allowed to do anything with one on a full category B if I somehow managed to buy one.
Having no CPC doesnt limit the number of passengers, it just means that you cannot drive commercially (i.e. even if the vehicle was class VI tested and you had an operators license available from somewhere you still couldn't charge passengers).

Commercial training providers are only going to go after the 99% of people who want standard HGV/PCV licences for everyday vehicles,;specialist type training is always going to be difficult and is more likely to fall on the operators themselves if they operate the more difficult types. For historic vehicles the easiest way would be to learn from other owners or through groups or museums; they'll have the vehicles and the people with the skills to pass on.
 

L401CJF

Established Member
Joined
16 Oct 2019
Messages
1,443
Location
Wirral
What classification is driving for leisure as it is between a local route and EU/tachograph? I believe no CPC is required for this although not having one might limit passengers. Is it possible to get trained with an operator that train from younger without working for them? Working as a driver would be out of the question for the individual I was referring to since they already work in a different industry and only want to do it for leisure, which might no longer be possible after CAZ (which will be in force by the time they are 24).

I don't know if the training provider they spoke to had assumed they only held an automatic license due to the majority of new drivers only having automatic now but it sounds to be the case for that. Unless it may be different with trucks due to the use of non-synchro until recently and they just misunderstood. Is it permitted to go from passing in a modern (pre-2014) manual car, then further trained in an automatic category C HGV and then be able to drive an older non-synchro ERF (is it even the same as crash gears?) and if that is the case where would any heavy gearbox training come in? Since I am under the understanding it is not possible to operate one with only standard gearbox experience?

Come to think about it, where would anyone new to driving in the UK get training for a two way clutch epicyclic box? They are different entirely and in no way possible for anyone who has just passed in a manual who does not have knowledge of how they work to operate despite it being legal for someone older with a more general license to drive one on UK roads. I know roughly of the operation of one due to having watched videos of someone in the US demonstrate it on a car they had restored but I am in no way passed out to use a similar transmission and therefore would not be allowed to do anything with one on a full category B if I somehow managed to buy one.
It is my understanding that driving a bus for leisure, ie a preserved bus, does not fall under either EU or Domestic driving hours as its basically being used as a big car - particularly so if its MOT as a class 5 and insured under a preserved bus policy.

Many a time I've taken my brothers preserved bus out during the day for a few hours then gone to work driving a service bus on a late shift - driving a preserved bus doesn't tire me out in the slightest, probably because there's no schedule to concentrate on, no passengers to deal with and is literally a leisurely drive!
 

d9016

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2011
Messages
37
What would be the quickest way for a new driver to be trained to be able to drive a privately owned ~25 year old Olympian if they currently 18?

For training on older obsolete stuff I have found through personal experience that museums & preservation groups do not want anyone new working with them, they only want people who have already worked with those vehicles and know them inside and out like retired mechanics. Which seems like it would mean if anyone who actually does want to drive a non-synchromesh, split clutch epicyclic or even something completely different like an older train/tram then this is just not happening. If I was to buy a classic pre-war Austin with non-synchromesh or a Ford with an epicyclic, I would be stuck due to the limitations of a modern training car (it sounds crazy but TBH I like the idea of something built to last rather than a dull modern car that won't last 10 years).

I have also found that there are an increasing number of type specific rules for training on new machinery. Although car driving licenses seem to be rather general (even if they are not as generalised as they used to be), there are a lot of things that you need to be retrained if you encounter a slightly different version of the same thing. I actually experienced this myself after doing a course which included training on a Honda IZY mower amongst a few other tools with a Honda GCV160 engine. However when I tried to progress to a traineeship (leading to an apprenticeship) with a company who used Honda HRD or HRX mowers that even had the same GCV160 powering them, but I was told by one of their higher level that the mowers I had been trained on were just too different to theirs and therefore I was not qualified to use them. This seems to have also been the case with whoever is contracted for waste removal in our area due to collections having been cancelled or rescheduled recently due to their bin truck drivers having to be completely retrained to use new vehicles, I have not seen any new ones yet but I seem to get the impression the new ones are certainly not Mercedes Econic trucks as they had those before.

All this makes me wonder if the same will apply to buses in commercial use. Would a driver more familiar with a 1998 Alexander Volvo B10M be good to go ahead and drive a 2016 Enviro 200 MMC, or would a driver familiar with a 2001 Volvo B7TL be good to drive a 2009 Volvo B9TL? Would a driver familiar with a 2004 ALX400 Trident even be good to drive a 2006 Enviro 400 Trident? How similar do they have to be if at all different?
 

CN04NRJ

Established Member
Joined
28 Nov 2019
Messages
1,711
Location
UK
What would be the quickest way for a new driver to be trained to be able to drive a privately owned ~25 year old Olympian if they currently 18?

For training on older obsolete stuff I have found through personal experience that museums & preservation groups do not want anyone new working with them, they only want people who have already worked with those vehicles and know them inside and out like retired mechanics. Which seems like it would mean if anyone who actually does want to drive a non-synchromesh, split clutch epicyclic or even something completely different like an older train/tram then this is just not happening. If I was to buy a classic pre-war Austin with non-synchromesh or a Ford with an epicyclic, I would be stuck due to the limitations of a modern training car (it sounds crazy but TBH I like the idea of something built to last rather than a dull modern car that won't last 10 years).

I have also found that there are an increasing number of type specific rules for training on new machinery. Although car driving licenses seem to be rather general (even if they are not as generalised as they used to be), there are a lot of things that you need to be retrained if you encounter a slightly different version of the same thing. I actually experienced this myself after doing a course which included training on a Honda IZY mower amongst a few other tools with a Honda GCV160 engine. However when I tried to progress to a traineeship (leading to an apprenticeship) with a company who used Honda HRD or HRX mowers that even had the same GCV160 powering them, but I was told by one of their higher level that the mowers I had been trained on were just too different to theirs and therefore I was not qualified to use them. This seems to have also been the case with whoever is contracted for waste removal in our area due to collections having been cancelled or rescheduled recently due to their bin truck drivers having to be completely retrained to use new vehicles, I have not seen any new ones yet but I seem to get the impression the new ones are certainly not Mercedes Econic trucks as they had those before.

All this makes me wonder if the same will apply to buses in commercial use. Would a driver more familiar with a 1998 Alexander Volvo B10M be good to go ahead and drive a 2016 Enviro 200 MMC, or would a driver familiar with a 2001 Volvo B7TL be good to drive a 2009 Volvo B9TL? Would a driver familiar with a 2004 ALX400 Trident even be good to drive a 2006 Enviro 400 Trident? How similar do they have to be if at all different?

If you've got a PCV license you should be competent to drive anything, in my opinion. Never taken me more than 15-30 minutes to feel comfortable driving a new type of bus whether it be automatic or manual - with the exception of bendies. Took me two or three full shifts to feel fully confident in driving them.

I've never driven full crash but I've driven semi-crash (4 speed synchro on 3/4) - took me a while longer but I think I'd need an hour or two instruction and a few hours practice to be confident in driving a full crash gearbox. Semi auto is a doddle.
 
Last edited:

L401CJF

Established Member
Joined
16 Oct 2019
Messages
1,443
Location
Wirral
My type training at stagecoach was a case of this is how you start it, and no driving until actually on shift!

As said above, after about 15 minutes of driving an unfamiliar type you're fairly comfortable in it.

I did drive an open top Leyland Olympian at Stagecoach on a summer open top route which took a bit longer to get used to as it behaved differently to the newer stuff, firmer foot on the brake, touchy air throttle etc, but still comfortable in it after about 30 mins.

Have never driven a manual bus, something I'd quite like to do but a bit scared to do with somebody's pride and joy!
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
What would be the quickest way for a new driver to be trained to be able to drive a privately owned ~25 year old Olympian if they currently 18?

For training on older obsolete stuff I have found through personal experience that museums & preservation groups do not want anyone new working with them, they only want people who have already worked with those vehicles and know them inside and out like retired mechanics. Which seems like it would mean if anyone who actually does want to drive a non-synchromesh, split clutch epicyclic or even something completely different like an older train/tram then this is just not happening. If I was to buy a classic pre-war Austin with non-synchromesh or a Ford with an epicyclic, I would be stuck due to the limitations of a modern training car (it sounds crazy but TBH I like the idea of something built to last rather than a dull modern car that won't last 10 years).

I have also found that there are an increasing number of type specific rules for training on new machinery. Although car driving licenses seem to be rather general (even if they are not as generalised as they used to be), there are a lot of things that you need to be retrained if you encounter a slightly different version of the same thing. I actually experienced this myself after doing a course which included training on a Honda IZY mower amongst a few other tools with a Honda GCV160 engine. However when I tried to progress to a traineeship (leading to an apprenticeship) with a company who used Honda HRD or HRX mowers that even had the same GCV160 powering them, but I was told by one of their higher level that the mowers I had been trained on were just too different to theirs and therefore I was not qualified to use them. This seems to have also been the case with whoever is contracted for waste removal in our area due to collections having been cancelled or rescheduled recently due to their bin truck drivers having to be completely retrained to use new vehicles, I have not seen any new ones yet but I seem to get the impression the new ones are certainly not Mercedes Econic trucks as they had those before.

All this makes me wonder if the same will apply to buses in commercial use. Would a driver more familiar with a 1998 Alexander Volvo B10M be good to go ahead and drive a 2016 Enviro 200 MMC, or would a driver familiar with a 2001 Volvo B7TL be good to drive a 2009 Volvo B9TL? Would a driver familiar with a 2004 ALX400 Trident even be good to drive a 2006 Enviro 400 Trident? How similar do they have to be if at all different?
It's the difference between being legally allowed to do something and what the owners of the vehicle/equipment require. Cars are designed to be as easy to drive, and swap between, as possible. Buses tend to become easier to drive as they get more modern however the swapping between different types has never been as much of an issue (cars are sold to the drivers, buses are sold to managers within companies). I cant comment about mowers!

The issue with museums & preservation groups not being very positive to new members is often brought up and is something that they need to tackle as, otherwise, there will be nobody left who can tackle anything complex like a pre-selective or fully crash gearbox. Some groups are much more positive about this kind of thing than others!

As others have said, being competent at driving large vehicle is most of the issue; the technicalities of each type is less of the problem. In a crash geared PCV I'd feel safer with a PCV trained driver who hadnt handelled a crash gearbox before than a car driver who could deal with the gearbox!
 

d9016

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2011
Messages
37
I found something which seems to go in to more detail as to the age to drive a preserved bus being 24 (https://www.cetransportlaw.com/post/how-old-must-you-be-to-drive-a-bus-is-it-21-or-18), although it still seems weird to me that even after getting a PCV license 20-23 year olds can only drive their own bus if they work as a bus driver commercially. Can't it be changed back to 18 now we are out of the EU?

I suppose if they were somehow able to get someone in a bus company to train them and put them through CPC even though they don't work there then the person who I was referring to before would only have to wait for two years. Otherwise if they have to wait for six years it is not likely going to be possible for them to get a chance to drive any buses owned by their friend group before the CAZ puts a stop to them being run, even though London still permits vehicles over 40 right in to the centre (with just a £15 congestion toll fee if you go that far in) and that area is supposedly the strictest.

Am I correct in saying if someone was to buy a car like a classic Ford with the epicyclic gearbox and unusual control layout but they only recently passed in a modern normal manual, they would be able to drive it after just getting to grips with it themselves (like by watching the YouTube video I found of a demonstration by someone in the US who restored one)? Or is there more to it than that? I was always under the impression that they would be too different to a normal car and would require further professional training, albeit with seemingly nobody around who is willing to train someone new how to drive it.

It always surprised me that someone in the US could go out and buy a compact tractor or large commercial mower from a dealership and be good to go and drive it themselves as long as they have basic contractor insurance and a trailer to carry it on the road, whereas I was told I was not qualified to operate a push mower just because it had a different rear axle to the one I was last trained on. What is the issue with that?
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
I found something which seems to go in to more detail as to the age to drive a preserved bus being 24 (https://www.cetransportlaw.com/post/how-old-must-you-be-to-drive-a-bus-is-it-21-or-18), although it still seems weird to me that even after getting a PCV license 20-23 year olds can only drive their own bus if they work as a bus driver commercially. Can't it be changed back to 18 now we are out of the EU?

I suppose if they were somehow able to get someone in a bus company to train them and put them through CPC even though they don't work there then the person who I was referring to before would only have to wait for two years. Otherwise if they have to wait for six years it is not likely going to be possible for them to get a chance to drive any buses owned by their friend group before the CAZ puts a stop to them being run, even though London still permits vehicles over 40 right in to the centre (with just a £15 congestion toll fee if you go that far in) and that area is supposedly the strictest.

Am I correct in saying if someone was to buy a car like a classic Ford with the epicyclic gearbox and unusual control layout but they only recently passed in a modern normal manual, they would be able to drive it after just getting to grips with it themselves (like by watching the YouTube video I found of a demonstration by someone in the US who restored one)? Or is there more to it than that? I was always under the impression that they would be too different to a normal car and would require further professional training, albeit with seemingly nobody around who is willing to train someone new how to drive it.

It always surprised me that someone in the US could go out and buy a compact tractor or large commercial mower from a dealership and be good to go and drive it themselves as long as they have basic contractor insurance and a trailer to carry it on the road, whereas I was told I was not qualified to operate a push mower just because it had a different rear axle to the one I was last trained on. What is the issue with that?
Very little changes because we left the EU, all EU law is now GB law and PCV age entitlements isn't going to appear on any governments list of things they care about. As I understood it the CPC is a requirement of passing the test now and maintaining CPC is just a case of paying for and attending the relevant training courses.

Once you've got a licence for the class of vehicle that you want to drive then you're legally allowed to drive it. Insurance can sometimes be an issue and even in a modern car it takes a couple of years to get to the stage where you're actually safe driving the car as apposed to legally allowed to.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top