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Hayes (Kent) branch. Strange 4th rail.

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Kentish Paul

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Travelled the Hayes branch for the first time yesterday. On the way back to Elmers End I noticed what looked like a mini conductor rail at West Wickham.
It caught my eye as it was on the platform side of the running rails. On further examination it was of smaller section than the normal "3rd rail" and sitting lower than the running rail. It was fixed to the sleepers and each section joined by heavy duty cable.

It appeared to be covered in a sort of green mildew and swapped sides when the conductor rail did. It seemed to stop as I approached Elmers End.

Sorry no camera with me. Anyone have any Ideas?
 
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MarkyT

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Travelled the Hayes branch for the first time yesterday. On the way back to Elmers End I noticed what looked like a mini conductor rail at West Wickham.
It caught my eye as it was on the platform side of the running rails. On further examination it was of smaller section than the normal "3rd rail" and sitting lower than the running rail. It was fixed to the sleepers and each section joined by heavy duty cable.

It appeared to be covered in a sort of green mildew and swapped sides when the conductor rail did. It seemed to stop as I approached Elmers End.

Sorry no camera with me. Anyone have any Ideas?

There's a bit in the 4-foot through the platforms shown in this shot:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo_expl...hoto_id=46004112&order=date_desc&user=1856069

Could be a parallel strengthening conductor, used to lower the resistance of the running rail traction current return path and hence mitigate against voltage drop which can limit the power available to trains. In plain line areas it's bonded to running rails via impedence bonds in order not to interfere with double rail track circuit operation. Often made of old sections of conductor rail whose contact surface has worn or otherwise degraded out of tolerance. That is cheaper than buying new cables to do the job.
 

John Webb

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Picture from 2011 herewith (click on photo to go to the larger original):
West Wickham station

© Copyright Robin Webster and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.
It can just be seen that around the footbridge the extra track moves to the '4 foot' between the running rails, seen here in close-up in a picture from 2010:
West Wickham railway station footbridge

© Copyright Stephen Craven and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.

These are almost certainly extra bonding rails for reducing losses in the traction current circuit as MarkyT mentions above. But their location outside the running rails is a little unusual.
 

HarleyDavidson

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For a while there was a long section of "4th rail" on the single line section near Tapnage tunnel on the Botley-Fareham line, I haven't been over that now for a few years now, so I can't tell you if it is still there or not.
 

Kentish Paul

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Thanks for the replies. I assumed it was something electrical but was not sure what.

As i've never seen it before is it common in other places like the Hayes branch? Is it done to save on an extra substation on a terminal branch?
 

frodshamfella

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Arrh the Hayes (Kent) line , years a go I had a friend who lived at Elmers End, and I used the line quite often. Went onwards to Hayes , also Addiscombe, and managed to travel on one of the last services from Elmers End to Sanderstead, all looking unloved and neglected along that stretch. It wasnt often you saw 2 car emu on South London suburbs, I think maybe London Bridge to Victoria was formed as a 2, so seeing the 2 car shuttles leaving Elmers End I found interesting. Addiscombe had the look of a busy terminus, but I never found it busy. There were a few peak hour semi-fasts from there direct to London I recall . Happy memories
 

30907

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Arrh the Hayes (Kent) line , years a go I had a friend who lived at Elmers End, and I used the line quite often. Went onwards to Hayes , also Addiscombe, and managed to travel on one of the last services from Elmers End to Sanderstead, all looking unloved and neglected along that stretch. It wasnt often you saw 2 car emu on South London suburbs, I think maybe London Bridge to Victoria was formed as a 2, so seeing the 2 car shuttles leaving Elmers End I found interesting. Addiscombe had the look of a busy terminus, but I never found it busy. There were a few peak hour semi-fasts from there direct to London I recall . Happy memories

Don't think Addiscombe was ever really busy. It was built to compete for Croydon traffic and the area was built up much earlier than Hayes which serves almost entirely post-electrification housing and remained a branch for several years electrification (from the down bay at Elmers End which i think had gone by your and my time). And I agree that Selsdon was dead even in the peak by then.

Interestingly, the Mid Kent is the one ex SER suburban line with a significantly less frequent peak service than in the 30s or 50s. The 1967 timetable thinned the service, and the London Bridge remodelling finished the process.
 
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frodshamfella

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Don't think Addiscombe was ever really busy. It was built to compete for Croydon traffic and the area was built up much earlier than Hayes which serves almost entirely post-electrification housing and remained a branch for several years electrification (from the down bay at Elmers End which i think had gone by your and my time). And I agree that Selsdon was dead even in the peak by then.

Interestingly, the Mid Kent is the one ex SER suburban line with a significantly less frequent peak service than in the 30s or 50s. The 1967 timetable thinned the service, and the London Bridge remodelling finished the process.

Hi, yes I think you are right, my local line was the Bexleyheath, I think it had a better peak hour provision than the Hayes line, a few faster trains too. But I also found the branches from Elmers End interesting, particularly as they appeared lightly used.
 

IanKR

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Could be a parallel strengthening conductor, used to lower the resistance of the running rail traction current return path and hence mitigate against voltage drop which can limit the power available to trains.

These are almost certainly extra bonding rails for reducing losses in the traction current circuit as MarkyT mentions above. But their location outside the running rails is a little unusual.

Is it for this purpose that LU Tube lines have the central current ("4th") rail? If so, why does LU do it this way, and NR (where required) do it as above? And why is such infrastructure not needed everywhere in 3rd-rail electrified areas on NR?
 

contrex

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Is it for this purpose that LU Tube lines have the central current ("4th") rail? If so, why does LU do it this way, and NR (where required) do it as above? And why is such infrastructure not needed everywhere in 3rd-rail electrified areas on NR?

On the true LU 4th rail system there is no current return via the running rails, the third rail is +410 V and the 4th rail is -220 V (I think) and the trains have shoes that contact the 4th rail which is the only path back to the substation. On sections shared with NR e.g. Gunnersbury-Richmond, East Putney-Wimbledon, Queens Park northwards, the 4th rail is grounded to a running rail and the third rail is at +630 V so the LU trains "see" the right voltage.

The return-strengthening rails on the ex SR system being discussed here are purely to provide an extra parallel path for the return current and there is no contact with the trains.

By the way, the ex LNWR London area DC lines from Euston/Broad Street to Richmond Watford etc used the same insulated-return system as LU until 1970 when they changed to third rail, and on the parts where LU trains would not run they didn't take the insulated 4th rail away everywhere, they removed the pots and dropped the 4th rail down onto the sleepers and left it there to act as an return path strengthener. Not long after the changeover an SR 4-COR unit did a tour of newly accessible North London lines.
 

MarkyT

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Is it for this purpose that LU Tube lines have the central current ("4th") rail? If so, why does LU do it this way, and NR (where required) do it as above? And why is such infrastructure not needed everywhere in 3rd-rail electrified areas on NR?

The specialist steel used for traditional traction supply rail is a much better conductor than that used for the running rails, and the newer aluminium conductors are even better. A 4-rail system using low resistance rail for both legs of the circuit, as LU does, results typically in a lower total loop resistance than a 3-rail system returning through the running rails, but that's not the only reason LU use 4-rail. Routing the return current away from the running rails means it doesn't have to share those rails with the signalling track circuits, saving bonding (cabling) complexity, some interference concerns and the risks of traction current going the wrong way through signalling equipment under fault conditions. These faults occur occasionally on the NR 3-rail network and can cause damage, even fires sometimes, in signalling cabinets. 4-rail systems significantly reduce the likelihood of this kind of event, particularly important in the tunnel environment. Track circuits, however, are being replaced by more modern sensor-based train detection technology in many new signalling schemes which could remove this latter concern eventually. Axle counter sensors, for example, are completely isolated electrically from the rails they are mounted on.
 

Pigeon

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The original reason for using 4th-rail on tube lines was to avoid stray return current passing through the cast iron tunnel lining segments and causing galvanic corrosion.
 

John Webb

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The original reason for using 4th-rail on tube lines was to avoid stray return current passing through the cast iron tunnel lining segments and causing galvanic corrosion.
Traction current leakage above ground can also cause problems to nearby services such as gas mains, telephone circuits, water mains and the like, hence in various places the extra bonding rail is installed to minimise this problem.

Interestingly the advent of electric trams using overhead wire collection within 3 miles of Greenwich Observatory in the early 1900s were required to use double overhead wires and no earth return to minimise the effect on instruments then in use at the observatory. Curiously the conduit-fed system of electrification was allowed much closer to the observatory without objection.

Likewise the extension of the London Bridge-Greenwich line from Greenwich to Charlton was delayed for a while by objections from the Royal Observatory (among others), even though in the 1800s it was, of course, steam-hauled. The line eventually opened in 1878, and was electrified by 3rd rail in 1926, apparently without any objections from the Observatory.
 

contrex

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I believe an advantage of the 4 rail system especially in a tube size tunnel with small clearances and lined with cast iron segments, is that you can have an earth fault from one of the juice rails and still run a service. You can get fireworks if an nearby section has an opposite fault I believe.
 
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MarkyT

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The answer to stray current lies in keeping the running rails well insulated, floating, independent of local Earth. This is modern best practise for low voltage DC railways using 3-rail or overhead and for street tramways. No earth bonding anywhere must be attached to the running rails which sit on insulated pads and are secured with insulated clips.

Track circuits going out of fashion today is helpful as it removes the only other element or system directly connected electrically to the rails, an inherent risk in itself of more earth faults on the traction return system and a risk to the signalling equipment concerned.

The electric tube lines were early adopters of track circuits and colour light signals, for which some insulation between the running rails would have been necessary from the beginning but it may not have been complete or especially effective in the early days.

With track circuit train detection replaced by axle counters, balises and wiggly wires, London could perhaps consider removing the centre rail and convert to a 3-rail system on modernised lines in the future with little risk of stray current problems. To reduce return resistance through running rails alone, they could be bonded frequently to a heavy current drain cable run along the tunnel. The whole return system, though comprehensively cross-bonded, would remain fully insulated from Earth. With the obstacle of the raised centre rail removed, the four-foot between the rails becomes a much better access route along the tunnels for maintenance and emergency crew and for passenger evacuations.
 

contrex

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Likewise the extension of the London Bridge-Greenwich line from Greenwich to Charlton was delayed for a while by objections from the Royal Observatory (among others), even though in the 1800s it was, of course, steam-hauled. The line eventually opened in 1878, and was electrified by 3rd rail in 1926, apparently without any objections from the Observatory.

Probably because the Greenwich Magnetic Observatory moved to Abinger in 1924 and magnetic recording ceased at Greenwich in May 1926. Abinger, like all of south east England, was not ideal as far as magnetic interference was concerned and the Magnetic Observatory moved in 1957 to Hartland in Devon, which I read as a boy was "the furthest place from a railway in England". I don't know if that is true, although it is stated as a fact in a number of books, including R Pears Chope's "Farthest from the Railways: an Unknown Corner of Devon".
 

Busaholic

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Probably because the Greenwich Magnetic Observatory moved to Abinger in 1924 and magnetic recording ceased at Greenwich in May 1926. Abinger, like all of south east England, was not ideal as far as magnetic interference was concerned and the Magnetic Observatory moved in 1957 to Hartland in Devon, which I read as a boy was "the furthest place from a railway in England". I don't know if that is true, although it is stated as a fact in a number of books, including R Pears Chope's "Farthest from the Railways: an Unknown Corner of Devon".

Bude in Cornwall is 69 miles from the nearest station in Exeter, but of course was still connected to the railway in 1957. Okehampton is considerably nearer but a few special Summer Sunday services hardly qualify.
 

L&Y Robert

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The answer to stray current lies in keeping the running rails well insulated, floating, independent of local Earth. This is modern best practise for low voltage DC railways using 3-rail or overhead and for street tramways. No earth bonding anywhere must be attached to the running rails which sit on insulated pads and are secured with insulated clips.

So, standing on a wet platform or pavement, I reach out and touch some part of the just arrived train or tram, thus forming an electrical path between the vehicle together with the rails it's standing on, and the "true" earth. That is to say, the general mass of earth. Is there a potential difference? If so, why don't I get a shock? But if there isn't, what's all the fuss about?
 

Pigeon

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The difference isn't enough to give you a shock. Particularly when the vehicle isn't moving and so is drawing no current to create a drop in the return path.
 

MarkyT

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So, standing on a wet platform or pavement, I reach out and touch some part of the just arrived train or tram, thus forming an electrical path between the vehicle together with the rails it's standing on, and the "true" earth. That is to say, the general mass of earth. Is there a potential difference? If so, why don't I get a shock? But if there isn't, what's all the fuss about?

A potential difference will exist. Engineers must ensure it doesn't reach a dangerous level and additional voltage limiting devices can be used to detect and manage that. For new tramways, HMRI requires that accessible voltages do not exceed 60V at any point in the system.

For high voltage AC systems, the running rail return cannot float in the same way because accessible voltage could be very much higher. In such systems, everything metallic nearby must be bonded to the rails and Earth. Whilst that does nothing to discourage stray current, with AC this doesn't cause the same corrosion problems as with DC and the current levels are much lower anyway for a given power load.

The two philosophies collide when trying to combine the two electrification systems on the same section of track. In order to safely manage accessible voltages, the comprehensive bonding of AC must be applied, but this promotes the high DC return current using alternative 'stray' paths.

There's an interesting ORR guidance document on the subject of stray current for tramways here:

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/5070/TTGN3.pdf
 

Barn

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John Webb:2302862 said:
Likewise the extension of the London Bridge-Greenwich line from Greenwich to Charlton was delayed for a while by objections from the Royal Observatory (among others), even though in the 1800s it was, of course, steam-hauled. The line eventually opened in 1878, and was electrified by 3rd rail in 1926, apparently without any objections from the Observatory.

Although interestingly there appears to be a current return rail in use in the tunnels between Maze Hill and Greenwich.
 

L&Y Robert

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A potential difference will exist. Engineers must ensure it doesn't reach a dangerous level and additional voltage limiting devices can be used to detect and manage that. For new tramways, HMRI requires that accessible voltages do not exceed 60V at any point in the system.

OK, what about this then: When my flat was being wired up the electrician ran earth wires to the enamel bath, the stainless steel kitchen sink, the hob, and to the central heating pipes. He also fitted special earthing bonds to a cluster of pipes in the cylinder cupboard, and ran another earth wire to the bonds. They have a tag attached: "Safety electrical earth - do not remove". He explained that this was to ensure that none of all this accessible metalwork could become 'live', and would always remain at earth potential. Thus a person (me) would never become an electical path: 'pipes-person-ground'.

But on our tramway, the rails (and thus the tram) are INSULATED from the earth. A dead short fault, say, in the innerds of the tram (that's ANY tram on the same section) would bring tram body, rails and 'other tram' up to overhead wire voltage (about 650 isn't it?). I shall 'Mind the Gap' with some care in future.
 

NSEFAN

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L&Y Robert said:
But on our tramway, the rails (and thus the tram) are INSULATED from the earth. A dead short fault, say, in the innerds of the tram (that's ANY tram on the same section) would bring tram body, rails and 'other tram' up to overhead wire voltage (about 650 isn't it?). I shall 'Mind the Gap' with some care in future.
The rails must be referenced to earth somewhere, so provided they're a much better conductor than you then any kind of dead short should trip the system before it becomes an issue. This assumes that enough current is being drawn by the short circuit, as at low voltages the normal current levels drawn by trains can be thousands of amps!

I think you'd have to be very unlucky to find a dead short making the whole tram's potential rise up to hundreds of volts and then also hurt someone. Also, 650V is nasty but not necessarily fatal, whereas 25kV is pretty much guaranteed to kill, hence the desire to ground it everywhere when using high voltage AC.
 

MarkyT

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. . . on our tramway, the rails (and thus the tram) are INSULATED from the earth. A dead short fault, say, in the innerds of the tram (that's ANY tram on the same section) would bring tram body, rails and 'other tram' up to overhead wire voltage (about 650 isn't it?). I shall 'Mind the Gap' with some care in future.

Very briefly possibly, but a dead short across the supply should trip it out. If there was a discontinuity in the return path system that would be a serious fault, but that's why significant parallelism and redundancy is incorporated in its design. Three rail power has operated under the floating rail system for many decades in the south of England and I'm not aware of any incidents involving touch potential. Tram systems have moved into line, adopting the same return current design philosophy, after the earlier new generation tramway methods involving lots of bonding and current collection meshes etc were found to actually promote greater return current leakage. I have recollections of cases on 25kV stock where crew were shocked to varying degrees whilst climbing aboard units that had been left with pan up on rusty rails in sidings. I don't know how commonplace such incidents are.
 

L&Y Robert

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Whilst in Manchester recently (17th August) I had a look at the progress of the “Second City Crossing”. Then, I made my way up Moseley Street where I saw that the now single tram track reverted to double by what I took to be a temporary set of points (they were on timbers on a ballast bed). One detail took my attention though, the overhead had been cut, and the loose tail looped down to rail level and there connected to one of the running rails. Safety, I assumed – all the residual (and new, of course) overhead down in St.Peters Sq. has to be dead whilst the ground works proceed. But what if there is a fault? A gap in the overhead bridged by a stray pantograph, say, or a metal pole – that sort of thing. Then, the ‘insulated’ track would become live with respect to the surrounding earth, would it not? Not being awkward - just something I saw, mused upon, still thinking . . .
 

Pigeon

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OK, what about this then: When my flat was being wired up the electrician ran earth wires to the enamel bath, the stainless steel kitchen sink, the hob, and to the central heating pipes. He also fitted special earthing bonds to a cluster of pipes in the cylinder cupboard, and ran another earth wire to the bonds. They have a tag attached: "Safety electrical earth - do not remove". He explained that this was to ensure that none of all this accessible metalwork could become 'live', and would always remain at earth potential. Thus a person (me) would never become an electical path: 'pipes-person-ground'.

As heating elements age, the insulating material which is packed around the wire inside begins to deteriorate, and becomes more and more electrically conductive when it is hot. This is what is happening when the cooker starts blowing the breaker at shorter and shorter intervals after you turn it on. The stray juice is shunted to earth via the earth wire and the system senses this and trips out. Without the earth wire it would shunt to earth through you.

With plumbing the risk is more from things like badly-routed cables chafing against pipes from thermal movement until the insulation is worn through, or from the immersion heater, which can either develop insulation problems the same way as cooker elements do, or in some cases can corrode through and expose the wire inside directly to the water.

But on our tramway, the rails (and thus the tram) are INSULATED from the earth. A dead short fault, say, in the innerds of the tram (that's ANY tram on the same section) would bring tram body, rails and 'other tram' up to overhead wire voltage (about 650 isn't it?). I shall 'Mind the Gap' with some care in future.

That would only happen if all the returns were somehow broken somewhere (which would also cause the tram to come to a stand). I don't know if real systems do this but if I was designing a tram system I would include something to continuously monitor the integrity of the returns and cut off the supply in case of a fault for exactly this reason.

650V is nasty but not necessarily fatal, whereas 25kV is pretty much guaranteed to kill

It is said that third rail systems are in some ways the most dangerous. They make you grab on where a higher voltage would cause a more violent spasm and throw you off. Also DC is more apt to promote grabbing-on than AC.

Three rail power has operated under the floating rail system for many decades in the south of England and I'm not aware of any incidents involving touch potential.

I believe that the running rails can get up to 100V or so in worst-case conditions (maximum number of trains, all drawing power, with one of the feeds out, and at maximum distance from a feed). If a train is stopped, of course, it is not worst-case :)

I have recollections of cases on 25kV stock where crew were shocked to varying degrees whilst climbing aboard units that had been left with pan up on rusty rails in sidings. I don't know how commonplace such incidents are.

The inclusion of "rusty rails" makes me think that that is due to rust partially insulating the wheels plus rain and dirt creating leakage across the insulators on the roof, rather than stray ground currents.

'Course with 25kV AC we encounter another phenomenon: stray voltages cropping up on things due to reactive phenomena. Things To Do When Really Bored On Bescot Station: drag the back of your hand along the wire fence at the back of the platform and give yourself a tingle.

Whilst in Manchester recently (17th August) I had a look at the progress of the "Second City Crossing". Then, I made my way up Moseley Street where I saw that the now single tram track reverted to double by what I took to be a temporary set of points (they were on timbers on a ballast bed). One detail took my attention though, the overhead had been cut, and the loose tail looped down to rail level and there connected to one of the running rails. Safety, I assumed - all the residual (and new, of course) overhead down in St.Peters Sq. has to be dead whilst the ground works proceed. But what if there is a fault? A gap in the overhead bridged by a stray pantograph, say, or a metal pole - that sort of thing. Then, the 'insulated' track would become live with respect to the surrounding earth, would it not? Not being awkward - just something I saw, mused upon, still thinking . . .

That is why live sections have a short neutral section between them so the gap cannot be bridged by a pantograph. As well as the danger you describe that would also create untoward circumstances in normal running as the two sections would not necessarily be at the same voltage or phase and the result might be great big bangs and associated damage.
 
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