Heading into autumn - what next?

[NorthKent1989]

That said, I am quietly hopeful that our current government will continue to hold its nerve against Pro restriction brigade. For better or worse, covid is part of our illness/mortality profile now. There must be no attempt to remodel human society/Western societal norms in its wake.

I hope so too, but I get the feeling that sooner or later the locktavists will get their own way and have the papers please society their so keen on having just some they can virtue signal, not one person in favour of the passports can give me a reason as to why passports work? I only get the usual what-aboutism.

It doesn't help that the last 18 months have demonstrated that the government could probably get away with implementing *anything* off the back of a "save the NHS" message.

Indeed, though I hope that this message is being seen for what it really is; emotional blackmail.

 

[35B]

I think this overlooks the vital point that the limit of what is considered a 'protected characteristic' is inherently arbitrary, and changes over time. During the atrocities in question, those characteristics were not considered protected and, in the eyes of those committing the atrocities, it was seen as perfectly legitimate to discriminate against people on that basis.

How do we know that in another 5, 10 or 50 years, discriminating on the basis of vaccination status won't also be seen as unconscionable?

Whilst there aren't yet any countries that have gone as far as any of those atrocities, no-one can deny that we are seeing many of the same precursors in terms of segregation and discrimination.

First it was having to prove your vaccination status to travel internationally. Then it was to avoid quarantine on close contact. Then to undertake 'domestic' activities. Then to keep your job. And now, in some places, you will be under lockdown unless you get vaccinated.

Quite simply - where does it end, and at what point do people recognise that the human right to bodily autonomy matters?

If we go along the line of "it's a matter of choice", you could say exactly the same about religion, for example. But it is internationally recognised that the freedom to exercise, or not to exercise, a religious or spiritual way of life warrants protection. Many people might see certain beliefs as totally illogical and unscientific but no-one would dare suggest that religious discrimination is acceptable.

How is this any different, on a fundamental level?

I would dispute the comparison vigorously - the restrictions are a direct response to a specific and identified emergency; not a general manifestation of a social policy.

There’s an interesting argument to be had over whether refusing a vaccine is a protected philosophical argument, but the acid test on restrictions would be about the balance between individual rights and necessity - something that the courts have been quite good at handling.

You’re speaking like we’re back where we were 2 years ago, Covid is no longer deadly and has actually proven to be no worse than seasonal flu, I don’t know why you keep perpetuating this idea that Covid is deadly when it has a 99% survival rate.

Many countries can be democratic one day and totalitarian the next, what we are witnessing is the beginnings of a totalitarian regime, they don’t just spring up overnight you know, Covid has given Western authoritarians the excuse to act out their Orwellian fantasies, to say otherwise is just being in denial at this point.

Well, I’m content to be in denial based on the complete lack of evidence for the comparisons you’re making.

For one example, the use of cell lines from aborted fetuses in the testing and/or production of the vaccines (to different degrees depending on which vaccine, but they all do so to some degree) is something that troubles a number of people from various religious groups (and indeed, some non-religious people).

Indeed, there are particularly some catholics for whom this is a major issue - despite papal blessing for the use of vaccines

 

[NorthKent1989]

Well, I’m content to be in denial based on the complete lack of evidence for the comparisons you’re making.

Well, they haven’t exactly used a pandemic to enforce totalitarianism before now have they.

Be content in your denial all you want but it doesn’t alter the fact that the governments of the West are using this to exert greater control, that’s not denial that’s wilful ignorance.

 

[Watershed]

I would dispute the comparison vigorously - the restrictions are a direct response to a specific and identified emergency; not a general manifestation of a social policy.

And just as Covid is the "specific and identified emergency" of today, the need to eliminate 'impure' races was an 'emergency' supposedly warranting abhorrent actions back in the 1930s.

A perhaps distasteful comparison, but it illustrates that the definition of 'emergency' is a matter of perspective and subjectivity.

If the identification of a supposed emergency means that fundamental human rights can be trodden over, then what protection and purpose do those rights even serve?

There’s an interesting argument to be had over whether refusing a vaccine is a protected philosophical argument, but the acid test on restrictions would be about the balance between individual rights and necessity - something that the courts have been quite good at handling.

I think it's simply a manifestation of the right to bodily autonomy, although others might categorise it differently.

Society accepts that it is every person's right to choose whether or not someone else can intentionally touch them. Therefore it's a crime to commit battery, sexual assault and so forth.

And frankly, I don't see how this is all that different. It is a matter of bodily autonomy that you choose what medical procedures you do or don't consent to. And such consent is not truly freely given if the alternative is deleterious (lockdown/losing your job etc.).

 

[bramling]

And just as Covid is the "specific and identified emergency" of today, the need to eliminate 'impure' races was an 'emergency' supposedly warranting abhorrent actions back in the 1930s.

A perhaps distasteful comparison, but it illustrates that the definition of 'emergency' is a matter of perspective and subjectivity.

If the identification of a supposed emergency means that fundamental human rights can be trodden over, then what protection and purpose do those rights even serve?

The other thing to consider is how useless our media is at the moment. Add in the opposition, and there is very little effective scrutiny. I'd feel a little more comfortable if I felt the checks and balances were effective.

I think it's simply a manifestation of the right to bodily autonomy, although others might categorise it differently.

Society accepts that it is every person's right to choose whether or not someone else can intentionally touch them. Therefore it's a crime to commit battery, sexual assault and so forth.

And frankly, I don't see how this is all that different. It is a matter of bodily autonomy that you choose what medical procedures you do or don't consent to. And such consent is not truly freely given if the alternative is deleterious (lockdown/losing your job etc.).

Very well put. Freedom to choose what goes in our bodies is a red line as far as I'm concerned, no matter how good the vaccine may or may not be. "I don't want it" should be good enough.

 

[Philip]

Whilst I am sure there are some people calling for restrictions because of their own interests unrelated to becoming ill (ie. continuing to work from home), I don't think people should generalise by putting everyone who thinks we should be cautious into the above group; or the authoritarians group or the hysterical group.

The non-serious symptoms are well known and in view of the fact that the virus is currently rife amongst the population, I think many people would like to help prevent themselves and others from feeling very rough for a few days or losing/affecting their sense of taste and smell for an indefinite period of time. It isn't just about avoiding becoming seriously ill or dying; I suspect many people would rather not expose themselves to a virus which the media informs us is well capable of putting people in bed for a few days even after having had the vaccines, hence why there is still a lot of caution surrounding the virus even in this country.

 

[brad465]

Unlike Austria, the partial lockdown in the Netherlands is non-discriminatory (or at least appears to be), which while good that a two-tier society isn't in place yet with regards to such restrictions, this has its own problems, chiefly that those who are not vaccinated now see no incentive to get it. The Netherlands also has a higher vaccination rate than both the UK and Austria yet still deems this move necessary.

 

[Philip]

I think things will settle down regarding the pandemic and the varying measures after the coming winter; the climate will soon become the big subject.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Whilst I am sure there are some people calling for restrictions because of their own interests unrelated to becoming ill (ie. continuing to work from home), I don't think people should generalise by putting everyone who thinks we should be cautious into the above group; or the authoritarians group or the hysterical group.

The non-serious symptoms are well known and in view of the fact that the virus is currently rife amongst the population, I think many people would like to help prevent themselves and others from feeling very rough for a few days or losing/affecting their sense of taste and smell for an indefinite period of time. It isn't just about avoiding becoming seriously ill or dying; I suspect many people would rather not expose themselves to a virus which the media informs us is well capable of putting people in bed for a few days even after having had the vaccines, hence why there is still a lot of caution surrounding the virus even in this country.

Good points but it’s hard to be sympathetic to this group when all they’ve done is beg for more restrictions without a valid reason beyond “cases” they’re basically calling for others to potentially give up earnings (if you’re an agency worker many of them weren’t furloughed), people to risk their small businesses and livelihoods and not to mention the toll on mental health.

And there is an element of hysteria when one is calling for restrictions at this point where most of the population are vaccinated, it is silly

They don’t seem to realise or want to accept that Covid is here forever and no amount of social distancing, lockdowns, restrictions, curfews, vaccines, vaccine passports etc is going to change that fact, we must now live with it and the pro restriction crowd don’t want to see it that way.

And there are a fair few in this crowd who are very authoritarian and are quite happy for there to be another lockdown or restrictions for unvaccinated people, not all are we know but some are this way inclined.

 

[Eyersey468]

I agree, Covid is here to stay now and having done all we can in terms of vaccines etc we have to live with it, which does not mean masks, antisocial distancing etc etc for the rest of time.

 

[AlterEgo]

People don’t like the comparison being made, and I’ve avoided making it myself up until this point, but history can’t be ignored just because some find the subject matter “difficult” (understandably in this instance). I don’t claim to be an historian, I do have in a strong interest though (and an A Level!) and I really think we need to stop and ask ourselves “what on earth are we doing here?”.

It is nothing like the treatment of the Jews in the nascency of the Holocaust. Appalling for anyone to make that comparison.

@NorthKent1989 i completely agree, I for one am sick of the lies and the hypocrisy from this government. I saw the parallels with 1930s Germany a long time ago but there are some that can't, or won't, see it.

Shame on you too.

The comparison with the 1930s is more the way the population sleepwalked into something bad. There are, unfortunately, very much parallels with what is happening now. In that case it was economic depression which was the trigger, this time it would be health.

We need to be *very* careful. Covid has already being used to justify all sorts of things that aren’t directly related to Covid.

As someone else posted, free life would now appear to depend on a bi-annual subscription to Pfizer.

Nothing at all like 1930s Germany. Unimaginative nonsense, as well as totally minimising the ordeal of marginalised groups then.

What we need to be careful of here is using the Nazis example, while correct, could easily be met will cries of Godwin's law and thus claims you've lost the argument. Better examples that may land better are US racial segregation, South Africa's apartheid, and various examples of religious persecution throughout history besides the Holocaust.

None of those are anything like what is happening, even in Austria.

None of which are valid; all of which are entirely inappropriate to the policies being applied in the western world.

Glad someone else is calling out this offensive balderdash.

It is a comparison, many simply don’t want to see but sadly you cannot hide from the truth, what is unfolding is the largest threat of authoritarianism since WW2.

Bunkum again. Never acceptable to compare this to historical genocide of the Jews.

 

[Eyersey468]

@AlterEgo I am not saying it is exactly the same, what I am saying is it is a very slippery slope and that kind of thing is what can happen when so many blindly accept everything the government says without question, when messaging is used to turn people against each other, which like it or not has happened over the last 18 months, and when anything that doesn't fit the official narrative gets shot down.

 

[AlterEgo]

@AlterEgo I am not saying it is exactly the same, what I am saying is it is a very slippery slope and that kind of thing is what can happen when so many blindly accept everything the government says without question, when messaging is used to turn people against each other, which like it or not has happened over the last 18 months, and when anything that doesn't fit the official narrative gets shot down.

You may not whatsoever equate public health measures in 2021 with Nazi Germany and avoid getting shot down. It is nothing like it whatsoever.

I have been happy to openly question the effectiveness of masks and lockdowns for about 18 months and I don’t feel anyone has tried to stop me. Mostly because what I’m saying doesn’t indirectly minimise the Holocaust.

 

[bramling]

It is nothing like the treatment of the Jews in the nascency of the Holocaust. Appalling for anyone to make that comparison.


Shame on you too.


Nothing at all like 1930s Germany. Unimaginative nonsense, as well as totally minimising the ordeal of marginalised groups then.


None of those are anything like what is happening, even in Austria.


Glad someone else is calling out this offensive balderdash.


Bunkum again. Never acceptable to compare this to historical genocide of the Jews.

No one has compared it to a genocide, so I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. What has been suggested is a comparison with an incremental slippery slope, where one of the first things to be seen was the marginalising of selected groups. Can you *really* not see why this is a matter for concern?

 

[AlterEgo]

No one has compared it to a genocide, so I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. What has been suggested is a comparison with an incremental slippery slope, where one of the first things to be seen was the marginalising of selected groups. Can you *really* not see why this is a matter for concern?

Sorry, no, the dog whistling is obvious, unimaginative and quite repellent. There are numerous posts here which indirectly minimise the impact of atrocities like the Holocaust, etc. here's one which essentialy goes "Well, probably not a good idea to talk about the *Nazis* (Even though it is correct!!!), but...why not compare it to the Jim Crow laws or South African apartheid?" Because they'll "land better". (With who? People who think what's going on in the UK is like...apartheid?) The mind boggles:

What we need to be careful of here is using the Nazis example, while correct, could easily be met will cries of Godwin's law and thus claims you've lost the argument. Better examples that may land better are US racial segregation, South Africa's apartheid, and various examples of religious persecution throughout history besides the Holocaust.

I distance myself from this entirely.

It disgusts me as much as extreme locktivist thinking does. It is quite possible to oppose what is going on by simply taking the facts at hand and meeting them with evidence and reason. This thread is a goldmine of the sort of thinking which is entirely self-defeating.

To repeat, the reasons to oppose things like lockdowns and vaccine passports are that there is limited evidence those interventions work, or at least provide a benefit worth the cost at any time other than the "shock" start stage of a pandemic. Stick to the facts and stop dog-whistling. An absolute car crash of a thread. Perhaps it is time to stop posting here and let the hardcore get on with the echo chamber of, what is frankly, appalling and offensive nonsense.

 

[bramling]

Sorry, no, the dog whistling is obvious, unimaginative and quite repellent. There are numerous posts here which indirectly minimise the impact of atrocities like the Holocaust, etc. here's one which essentialy goes "Well, probably not a good idea to talk about the *Nazis* (Even though it is correct!!!), but...why not compare it to the Jim Crow laws or South African apartheid?" Because they'll "land better". (With who? People who think what's going on in the UK is like...apartheid?) The mind boggles:



I distance myself from this entirely.

It disgusts me as much as extreme locktivist thinking does. It is quite possible to oppose what is going on by simply taking the facts at hand and meeting them with evidence and reason. This thread is a goldmine of the sort of thinking which is entirely self-defeating.

To repeat, the reasons to oppose things like lockdowns and vaccine passports are that there is limited evidence those interventions work, or at least provide a benefit worth the cost at any time other than the "shock" start stage of a pandemic. Stick to the facts and stop dog-whistling. An absolute car crash of a thread. Perhaps it is time to stop posting here and let the hardcore get on with the echo chamber of, what is frankly, appalling and offensive nonsense.

I think this goes rather beyond simply being a resistance to lockdowns. As you rightly say, there’s plenty of justifications why that is undesirable.

However I do think things run a little deeper than this, with some of the political tactics used over the last two years. I speak only for myself, however I am sufficiently disquieted by elements of it that I feel it is something we need to keep a close eye on, and be informed by lessons from past history. That’s all.

 

[Bantamzen]

You may not whatsoever equate public health measures in 2021 with Nazi Germany and avoid getting shot down. It is nothing like it whatsoever.

I have been happy to openly question the effectiveness of masks and lockdowns for about 18 months and I don’t feel anyone has tried to stop me. Mostly because what I’m saying doesn’t indirectly minimise the Holocaust.

How is being concerned that Austria is going down the route of Germany in the 1930s minimising the Holocaust? It didn't start with Germany shipping all Jewish people off to concentration camps, it started with marginalising Jews, denying them the same access to normal life that everyone else enjoyed. Exactly what is starting to happen in Austria. You can virtue signal all you like, but if we don't learn from history we will make the same mistakes over & over again.

 

[AlterEgo]

How is being concerned that Austria is going down the route of Germany in the 1930s minimising the Holocaust? It didn't start with Germany shipping all Jewish people off to concentration camps, it started with marginalising Jews, denying them the same access to normal life that everyone else enjoyed. Exactly what is starting to happen in Austria. You can virtue signal all you like, but if we don't learn from history we will make the same mistakes over & over again.

You’re going to look even worse when it turns out that nothing of the sort of happening to the *by choice* vax-refusers in Austria.

At best, people who use this analogy are dull and unimaginative. Such a terrifically dull claim to be on some moral high ground that prevents an atrocity like that, except all you’re doing is questioning the effectiveness of a public health measure.

Stop comparing this to Hitler and the Nazis, apartheid and Jim Crow, I beg of everyone. It’s like it’s the only history you think you know, except you’ve not got a clue.

If you persist in this sort of mental game your head’s gone and this is real loony territory. I’m certainly going to stop associating with people who try to paint this particular problem with the big overused Nazi Germany brush.

 

[kez19]

You’re going to look even worse when it turns out that nothing of the sort of happening to the *by choice* vax-refusers in Austria.

At best, people who use this analogy are dull and unimaginative. Such a terrifically dull claim to be on some moral high ground that prevents an atrocity like that, except all you’re doing is questioning the effectiveness of a public health measure.

Stop comparing this to Hitler and the Nazis, apartheid and Jim Crow, I beg of everyone. It’s like it’s the only history you think you know, except you’ve not got a clue.

If you persist in this sort of mental game your head’s gone and this is real loony territory. I’m certainly going to stop associating with people who try to paint this particular problem with the big overused Nazi Germany brush.

Yet if people say I told you say then what? Still call them loonies? Is that the only thing people say as for people voicing opinion?

I know what why don’t we hold the media governments and scientists accountable for their actions first before we judge others?

How would you describe the situation we really in then?

I’ll give an example why the need in extended the COVID act? I noted that Scotland jumped first for March 2022 then UK Gov followed and in exact month next year? That can’t be coincidental here can it?

 

[DustyBin]

You’re going to look even worse when it turns out that nothing of the sort of happening to the *by choice* vax-refusers in Austria.

At best, people who use this analogy are dull and unimaginative. Such a terrifically dull claim to be on some moral high ground that prevents an atrocity like that, except all you’re doing is questioning the effectiveness of a public health measure.

Stop comparing this to Hitler and the Nazis, apartheid and Jim Crow, I beg of everyone. It’s like it’s the only history you think you know, except you’ve not got a clue.

If you persist in this sort of mental game your head’s gone and this is real loony territory. I’m certainly going to stop associating with people who try to paint this particular problem with the big overused Nazi Germany brush.

But it is happening though, a group of people are being marginalised and having their liberty removed for nothing other than disagreeing with government policy. They aren’t criminals whether you agree with them or not.

Nobody in this thread has suggested they’ll be exterminated or shipped off to internment camps. When people make suggestions such as ankle tagging however (and yes there are individuals saying this, dismiss them all you like) as a means of enforcement people are well within their right to draw historical comparisons.

Perhaps going forward we should stick to “nasty business in Austria, tea anybody?” and a stiff upper lip so as to avoid causing offence?

 

[Bantamzen]

You’re going to look even worse when it turns out that nothing of the sort of happening to the *by choice* vax-refusers in Austria.

At best, people who use this analogy are dull and unimaginative. Such a terrifically dull claim to be on some moral high ground that prevents an atrocity like that, except all you’re doing is questioning the effectiveness of a public health measure.

Stop comparing this to Hitler and the Nazis, apartheid and Jim Crow, I beg of everyone. It’s like it’s the only history you think you know, except you’ve not got a clue.

If you persist in this sort of mental game your head’s gone and this is real loony territory. I’m certainly going to stop associating with people who try to paint this particular problem with the big overused Nazi Germany brush.

So rather than addressing what is happening you resort to insults?

I'm astonished that you cannot see that effectively putting a group of people into house arrest for purely political reasons is not a thin edge of a very dangerous wedge. It was a similar marginalisation that started in Germany between the wars that lead to The Holocaust. Acts of human atrocities always have a starting point, and I am very uncomfortable with people being basically treated as lepers by politicians because history is full of these kind of acts leading to worse. Deny it all you like, the history books do not support your views.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It is nothing like the treatment of the Jews in the nascency of the Holocaust. Appalling for anyone to make that comparison.


Shame on you too.


Nothing at all like 1930s Germany. Unimaginative nonsense, as well as totally minimising the ordeal of marginalised groups then.


None of those are anything like what is happening, even in Austria.


Glad someone else is calling out this offensive balderdash.


Bunkum again. Never acceptable to compare this to historical genocide of the Jews.

I think you’re picking and choosing quotes so you can act our your mock outrage.

Because I also said this:

And you do have a point, but now the government is targeting those with different views, let’s not forget the Nazis targeted not just Jews but those who thought differently; Socialists, Anti-Fascists etc they were targeted as much as the Jewish people were just for having “wrong-thought” not everything is down to race or class.

If you’re that concerned historical accuracy then read that the Nazis didn’t just target Jewish people, they targeted, Socialists, gypsies, Gay people, and anyone else they considered a traitor or held views that disagreed with Nazi views.

Now for my next point you’ve already fallen into the government trap of divide and conquer by calling those with a different viewpoint as loonies, how does doing this put you morally superior to us? I strongly suggest you get off your soapbox and read all the comments rather than cherry pick the ones that suit your mock outrage.

Such a terrifically dull claim to be on some moral high ground

Can easily say the same about your post quite frankly.

To repeat, the reasons to oppose things like lockdowns and vaccine passports are that there is limited evidence those interventions work, or at least provide a benefit worth the cost at any time other than the "shock" start stage of a pandemic. Stick to the facts and stop dog-whistling. An absolute car crash of a thread. Perhaps it is time to stop posting here and let the hardcore get on with the echo chamber of, what is frankly, appalling and offensive nonsense.

We’ve all said that vaccine passports make no sense due to rising cases in Wales which has them, yet there’s been no talk of getting rid of them has there, you don’t think that’s strange?

If you can’t handle a simple debate don’t post on here if you’re going to be continually offended.

You may not whatsoever equate public health measures in 2021 with Nazi Germany and avoid getting shot down. It is nothing like it whatsoever.

I have been happy to openly question the effectiveness of masks and lockdowns for about 18 months and I don’t feel anyone has tried to stop me. Mostly because what I’m saying doesn’t indirectly minimise the Holocaust.

YOU may not have been stopped though quite frankly I find that very hard to believe.

However you have the opposite party; Labour going into bed with the Tories on everything without questioning how lockdowns will effect the poorest or the vulnerable or those with mental health issues.

You have the media demonising anyone with an opposing opinion and calling those with such views as “Covidiots” or “Granny Killers” the media and the government have all been on the same side on this without questioning the narrative.

No one is minimising the Holocaust, stop putting words into people’s mouths and stick to facts!

You cannot see what’s going on, fair enough, but don’t call other people loonies for having a different viewpoint it makes you look childish

You’re going to look even worse when it turns out that nothing of the sort of happening to the *by choice* vax-refusers in Austria.

The fact you can type this and still think this type of behaviour from any government is a “public health issue” is beyond me quite frankly

How is the choice between getting a jab or else be ostracised from society ever a choice? Explain that to me please?

 

[Watershed]

You’re going to look even worse when it turns out that nothing of the sort of happening to the *by choice* vax-refusers in Austria.

These people are unvaccinated "by choice" in just the same way as other people are followers of one or other religion, or political party "by choice".

Yet I don't see anyone suggesting that it would be alright to lockdown followers of particular religions or parties, in an attempt to make them change allegiances. Even though aspects of certain religions and parties undoubtedly cause harm to society, just as being unvaccinated could be argued to cause harm to society.

I don't know about you, but I'd like to live in a society that is tolerant of people's right to make choices about their life and lifestyle.

 

[greyman42]

No one has compared it to a genocide, so I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. What has been suggested is a comparison with an incremental slippery slope, where one of the first things to be seen was the marginalising of selected groups. Can you *really* not see why this is a matter for concern?

The vast majority could not care less about what is happening in Austria as it does not affect us in England. Worse things are going on in other parts of the world that receive no attention.

I think things will settle down regarding the pandemic and the varying measures after the coming winter; the climate will soon become the big subject.

Climate is a complete turn off for most people due to stupid protesters and the likes of Greta Thunberg.

 

[brad465]

I distance myself from this entirely.

It disgusts me as much as extreme locktivist thinking does. It is quite possible to oppose what is going on by simply taking the facts at hand and meeting them with evidence and reason. This thread is a goldmine of the sort of thinking which is entirely self-defeating.

To repeat, the reasons to oppose things like lockdowns and vaccine passports are that there is limited evidence those interventions work, or at least provide a benefit worth the cost at any time other than the "shock" start stage of a pandemic. Stick to the facts and stop dog-whistling. An absolute car crash of a thread. Perhaps it is time to stop posting here and let the hardcore get on with the echo chamber of, what is frankly, appalling and offensive nonsense.

In what you quoted me here I was actually trying to play down the extreme thinking behind what Austria is doing, as I recognised Nazi comparisons are not helpful.

In answer to the rest of your points there seems to be a culture that even demanding a cost to benefit analysis of restrictions gets one shot down by things like "extreme locktivist thinking". Scientists like Prof Carl Heneghan have been effectively shut out of the debate, even though scientific debate/disagreement isn't unusual, and in his case he once produced an article about ineffectiveness of masks that was taken down by social media for misinformation, even though the publisher is an Oxford Professor. I have in various places tried to argue against masks on environmental grounds and how they impair communication like facial expressions, which I believe are more rationale than just on the grounds of freedom/liberty.

What we also have to remember is a lot of what you say in this thread that is "entirely self-defeating" is also being played out in the wider media; the media give a lot of focus towards those like covid-deniers (such as Piers Corbyn) and the CRG, whose only visible argument is on libertarian grounds. They're not giving focus to those presenting limited effectiveness of restrictions/vaccine passports/masks, and as mentioned above, even resorting to labelling such arguments misinformation, even if backed up by evidence. Also we have plenty of users like @yorkie who present evidence/facts of ineffectiveness all the time.

 

[bramling]

The vast majority could not care less about what is happening in Austria as it does not affect us in England. Worse things are going on in other parts of the world that receive no attention.

To be honest, I'm just as concerned with some of the antics we've seen here in the UK. I'm not going to make a list as it's been covered on here to great length over time. I feel this government continually demonstrates little in the way of accountability, and that's of significant concern going forward.

The situation in Austria is something else, and seems equally unpleasant.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The vast majority could not care less about what is happening in Austria as it does not affect us in England. Worse things are going on in other parts of the world that receive no attention.

Even if that were true, and I think a portion of the population are concerned, the fact that ‘worse things’ are happening in other parts of the world that don’t receive any attention doesn’t make what’s going in Austria any less sinister

A piece from the guardian from the perspective of those who are unjabbed and working in care homes

One of the care homes mentioned that nearly half the staff bedrooms were now empty, there are 27 rooms for staff and 12 are empty with more set to become empty, this is just one care home, I’m sure the situation is similar all over the country, if people can support the sacking of workers who worked through the last 18 months with minimal to no PPE then you really have to take a good long hard look at yourselves.

‘I feel really let down’: unjabbed care home staff on quitting their jobs

With a rule requiring workers to be vaccinated against Covid due to come into effect on Thursday, bedrooms are already standing empty for lack of workers

www.theguardian.com

One rather profound quote said by a manager was this:

“The [situation] is absolutely ridiculous,” said Callender. “I have to turn a healthcare worker away if they are not vaccinated, but not visitors.”

None of this makes any sense.

 

[MikeWM]

Which religious groups are you referring to?

Roman Catholics being the obvious example...

Indeed, there are particularly some catholics for whom this is a major issue - despite papal blessing for the use of vaccines

You're right that the Pope has said it is ok, and indeed is openly encouraging Catholics to take up the Covid vaccines.

However, one of the things people often don't appreciate about the (Roman) Catholic Church is that on matters of morality like this, while the opinion of the Pope obviously carries weight and can't just be trivially dismissed, for Catholics the true requirement is to query your conscience, fully, openly and honestly, and then follow what that tells you is correct - even if that is a different conclusion to that the Pope may have reached.

For a concrete example, my mother is a practicing Catholic, and she has significant issues with this. (Though her main reason for not being vaccinated is that she has had (a fairly unpleasant but not hospital-level serious) bout of Covid already, and sees no evidence that vaccination is going to achieve anything useful. I agree with that position.)

With regards to the Covid vaccine affecting periods, it may turn out that it’s a common side effect to many or even all vaccines.

That may indeed turn out to be so, and as you say we need more reseatch. But until we do know more I fully understand young women being reluctant to have these vaccines, and they certainly shouldn't be forced to do so.

 

[AlterEgo]

We're 1377 posts in and frankly if you believe in slippery slopes you might want to look at how this thread has degenerated.

I'm afraid most of the positions stated are irredeemable and I will leave you all to your echo chamber of a dozen people. I will be outside having a nice time and not comparing COVID to Nazism.

 

[Cowley]

I think it probably is time to close this thread now (we’re certainly in autumn).
If at some point ‘Plan B’ becomes reality then we’ll look at opening a thread on that.
Thanks everyone.