Back in the mid 1980's I was on a JAT (Yugoslavia as was) flight from Ljubljana and not being a frequent flyer I wasnt used to the normal east west pattern of today. However I was surprised to come in over the GWR (Western region back then) mainline in the vicinity of Southall as I recognised the surroundings from my frequent Didcot to Paddington rail trips. Google earth still shows the remnants of a V shape from terminal 4 leading NE and NW across the airport although now built over in most places. Was my experience unusual as presumably our flight path would cut across both the current runways. Plane was a 727 as we had the unusual entry via the rear door that lowered down below the tail, never done that again either.
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Heathrow north south landing ?
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Yep, Runway 23. In use till 2002 for strong crosswind (southerlies) landings. Decommissioned officially 2005.
Not used that often, but not unusual either.
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good so I didnt dream it then. Wasnt conscious of it being a windy day either, certainly no low clouds to indicate bad weather. Thanks for the explanation
Yep, only used for landings as 23. With take offs continuing on 27R as they could operate independently. No ILS (Instrument Landing System) on 23 though.
PhilipRdNGauge
Member
Not that late, but I remember planes landing on 05 in the late 70s early 80s, they would come right passed my bedroom window, if the wind was blowing in the right direction. Mainly tridents, with the odd 737, but sometimes bigger stuff, like tristars & 747s, I think I even saw Concorde once.
Dstock7080
Established Member
the Southall gasometer, sadly now demolished, marked the path to 23.
Snow1964
Established Member
The terminals gradually covered the other runways.
In the days of propeller planes, crosswinds were more important, so as built each runway was 60 degrees from each other so would not be more than 30 degrees of crosswind.
See the link, and mid 1950s aerial photo, with the 6 runways, the central area was almost hexagonal between them.
Note there was a taxiway north of the runway (now lost under staff car parks). The runway you landed on is now blocked by the new Terminal 2 satellite pier (the new piers are toast rack formation in rows)
If you look closely on google satellite view you can still see sections of these other runways (but in recent years, parts have been dug out and grassed over), for many years some parts became taxi ways, but even these have been replaced by more east-west and north-south taxiways, with virtually none remaining at angles. (To avoid confusion when looking at satellite photo, there are high speed exits from runways at intervals to help clear them, I’m not including these as taxi ways)
In the days of propeller planes, crosswinds were more important, so as built each runway was 60 degrees from each other so would not be more than 30 degrees of crosswind.
See the link, and mid 1950s aerial photo, with the 6 runways, the central area was almost hexagonal between them.
Note there was a taxiway north of the runway (now lost under staff car parks). The runway you landed on is now blocked by the new Terminal 2 satellite pier (the new piers are toast rack formation in rows)
If you look closely on google satellite view you can still see sections of these other runways (but in recent years, parts have been dug out and grassed over), for many years some parts became taxi ways, but even these have been replaced by more east-west and north-south taxiways, with virtually none remaining at angles. (To avoid confusion when looking at satellite photo, there are high speed exits from runways at intervals to help clear them, I’m not including these as taxi ways)
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Wasn't that because there was a rather similar structure at a similar bearing from Northolt and someone ended up at the wrong airport?
Having done some work in Iceland a few years ago I flew into Kelfavik about ten times, and landed and took off in multiple directions on various of the three runways set at 45 degree angles. The wind there is typically stronger and more unpredictable than at most places - on at least one occasion the takeoff was so short I think they could have tied a bit of string to the plane and flown it like a kite.
I found a reference to that incident here:
Aircraft Landing, Northolt (Hansard, 12 December 1960)
Aircraft Landing, Northolt (Hansard, 12 December 1960)
api.parliament.uk
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Yes, the bearing from the South Harrow gasholder - landmark of my childhood in the area - to the Northolt runway was pretty much identical to the bearing from the Southall one to the Heathrow runway discussed here. So apart from being a few miles off, laterally, everything would look right! The error happened more than once over the years.
It seems incredible - you'd think if such a comparatively common landmark as a gasometer as a navigation mark, it would at least have its top painted with red stripes or some other way of making it distinctive, especially after the first landing at the wrong airport!
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Hence the lettering shown in #7! I think the one on the bearing from Northolt had some lettering added relating to that airport too.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
After some of the problems with planes wanting to land at Heathrow homing in on Northolt, the South Harrow gasholder [or, as it was always called, gasometer] had a massive "NO" painted on it facing the way that such aircraft would approach it. In my youthful naivity, I assumed that meant No as opposed to Yes, not realising there was a gasholder in Southall with something else different painted on it.
eoff
Member
I remember landing on a flight that made the quick right turn from 27L onto this cross runway. The pilot apologised for the unusual braking.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Right turn?
BananaRepublic
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Some extremely short landing if that was the case.
That intersection is barely 3000ft from the 27L threshold and located just at the end of the touchdown zone.
The mid-point of the touchdown zone therefore being only around 1500ft from the old 05/23 intersection.
That suggests a small turboprop with a very short landing, or a light aircraft.
Maybe a misidentification of the actual turn-off?
eoff
Member
That is what I remember, reinforced by a picture I found as I'm sure the plane turned more than 90 degrees...
I don't remember any more, I found references to Dash-8s being able to stop in short distances and I know I flew on Dash-8s but more likelly to Manchester and East Midlands than to Heathrow. I suppose that a very strong headwind could have helped.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
That is what I remember, reinforced by a picture I found as I'm sure the plane turned more than 90 degrees...
I don't remember any more, I found references to Dash-8s being able to stop in short distances and I know I flew on Dash-8s but more likelly to Manchester and East Midlands than to Heathrow. I suppose that a very strong headwind could have helped.
That's why I was puzzled about the idea of a right turn - it would have had to be much more than 90 degrees, not just veering off while still going at some speed.
Northolt had a big NO painted on it, had two meanings a big NO for Heathrow, but NO also denoted Northolt
when I was a tad younger and in the ATC based at Northolt, was always told the NO is just that NO ! Here is a picture of the South Harrow gasholder with "NO" painted on it for the curious.
https://www.southharrowthenandnow.co.uk/landmarks.html
https://www.southharrowthenandnow.co.uk/landmarks.html
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Blimey - lots of childhood memories in those pics...
From the Wikipedia entry on Northolt here
Picture of the Pan Am B707 departing here
abpic.co.uk
As I understand it, they had to strip out the seats and galleys and put on minimum fuel to ensure that it could depart safely from Northolt's short runway.
It was reported that the crew that had landed there were also obliged to fly it out to Heathrow on the basis that you put it there, now you get it out. This was followed by a Hats on, no tea and biscuits interview
Not much info about the Lufty B707 though
Picture of the Pan Am B707 departing here
Boeing 707-321, N725PA / 17603, Pan American World Airways (PA / PAA) :
Picture of Boeing 707-321 taken at RAF Northolt (NHT / EGWU), UK - England by George Trussell Collection on ABPic
As I understand it, they had to strip out the seats and galleys and put on minimum fuel to ensure that it could depart safely from Northolt's short runway.
It was reported that the crew that had landed there were also obliged to fly it out to Heathrow on the basis that you put it there, now you get it out. This was followed by a Hats on, no tea and biscuits interview
Not much info about the Lufty B707 though
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