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Heathrow Western Access comes to a Standstill

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Bald Rick

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The forecasts for passengers using the western link were stellar. It would catch a lot of traffic from the roads. Hence a decent business case. Until Covid of course.

The southern rail link feeds HS2 and all sorts of other transfer markets - it shouldn’t have to wait for a 3rd runway at Heathrow.

Ah, but who pays? It’s rather expensive. And it doesn’t generate much new traffic to HS2, because of the journey times to OOC.
 
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BrianW

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If i'm not mistaken even after HS2 and crossrail are built a service from reading to heathrow would reduce the number of changes needed to reach heathrow from 2 to 1 for at least the following places

Bournmouth/Brokenurst/Southampton/Winchester
All stations from Reigate to Wokingham
Leamington SPA
Wolverhampton
Stafford
Macclesfield

Probablly also some places north of Crewe depending on exactly what happens with HS2 there.

Granted a link to Basingstoke would be better in this regard though.
How do people in those places LIVE? What- no direct train to Heathrow? Surely some levelling up needed.
 

Grumpy Git

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I just hope the change for LHR from HS2 at OOC is across platform. Have those who plan this stuff got enough sense to ensure that will happen?
 

Ianno87

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I just hope the change for LHR from HS2 at OOC is across platform. Have those who plan this stuff got enough sense to ensure that will happen?

How would that possibly work? GWML has 8 platforms on the surface, HS2 has 6 platforms underground.
 

Meerkat

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I mean, you could also meet the HS2 demand by improving Clapham Junction to OOC...
So go a long way into London, rebuild Clapham Junction so the trains can stop there, get on packed Overground trains and then still have to walk from a station to OOC?
If major jams occur then the coach diverts - one of the major advantages of road transport
It was very very late last time I used it - most of the coaches were trapped in traffic.
Ah, but who pays? It’s rather expensive. And it doesn’t generate much new traffic to HS2, because of the journey times to OOC.
True re cost, but what is the problem with journey time? Still better than getting across London surely?
plus connecting lots of suburbs with lots of offices (It’s a pain getting from SWML to GWML stations)
 

plugwash

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I just hope the change for LHR from HS2 at OOC is across platform. Have those who plan this stuff got enough sense to ensure that will happen?
No, unfortunately it will be a relatively long interchange as the GWR and HS2 are opposite sides of the station and at different levels.

Still an improvement over the current situation of walking from Euston to Euston square, then catching the subsurface lines to Paddington or alternatively catching the victoria line to green park followed by the piccadilly line to Heathrow.
 

Mikey C

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Er, no.

'Passenger journeys' are not the same as 'number of flights'.

The number of flights will remain essentially constant - predicated by the flying time, the time shift limiting possible start and landing times and the number of possible destinations in North America from Mexico to Canada — even if slightly smaller planes are used.
If smaller planes are used (at the same frequency) then that still equates to fewer passengers and fewer people travelling to Heathrow, making extra rail access to Heathrow less necessary
 

Bald Rick

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True re cost, but what is the problem with journey time? Still better than getting across London surely?
plus connecting lots of suburbs with lots of offices (It’s a pain getting from SWML to GWML stations)

The Heathrow Southern proposal was for 2tph from each of Basingstoke and Guildford. (Quite where those trains would terminate at Basingstoke and Guildford was unclear, and could be the subject of another thread titled ‘projects that haven’t fully thought through their service plans’).

So, if you are travelling to Heathrow from beyond either of Portsmouth and Basingstoke, you have to change trains into a half hourly service there, or 4tph service at Woking. Interchange penalty. Then from Woking to Heathrow was not going to be quick - fitting in with the existing slow line service, thence via Chertsey. Then, dwell time at Heathrow 2-3 minutes at each of the stations, before getting on to the GWML. (Aligning paths from the SWML to the GWML is a non trivial issue either, expect pathing time a plenty). Then the journey time to OOC, which would of course depend on whether the Heathrow Southern trains were extensions of Crossrail or HEx. Then the interchange at OOC.

It all adds up, and you have to change twice, one of them into a 4tph service at best. In comparison, staying on the train you are already on, changing onto the Northern line at Waterloo (20tph minimum) and boarding at Euston - whilst longer in mileage and is also two changes - can actually be quicker in generalised journey time.

Of course the situation is different for passengers from Basingstoke, Guildford and Woking, and the intermediate stations the Heathrow service was proposed to call at (which was not many).
 

edwin_m

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The Heathrow Southern proposal was for 2tph from each of Basingstoke and Guildford. (Quite where those trains would terminate at Basingstoke and Guildford was unclear, and could be the subject of another thread titled ‘projects that haven’t fully thought through their service plans’).
I think the expectation was that Heathrow Southern would benefit from capacity enhancements under Crossrail 2. Another reason why Southern, though probably having more benefits than Western, is also much more difficult and costly.
 

kevin_roche

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The Heathrow Southern proposal was for 2tph from each of Basingstoke and Guildford. (Quite where those trains would terminate at Basingstoke and Guildford was unclear, and could be the subject of another thread titled ‘projects that haven’t fully thought through their service plans’).

There is little capacity to turn round any more trains at Basingstoke. Their plan did say it would be helped by a grade separation but did not explain how.
 

zwk500

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There is little capacity to turn round any more trains at Basingstoke. Their plan did say it would be helped by a grade separation but did not explain how.
Grade separation would help because you could provide a route from Down Slow to Up Slow without conflicting with the fasts. Either by making the flyover line bi-directional or with 2 independent lines, and a little chord. It would be functionally similar to Welwyn Garden City.
 

Meerkat

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The Heathrow Southern proposal was for 2tph from each of Basingstoke and Guildford. (Quite where those trains would terminate at Basingstoke and Guildford was unclear, and could be the subject of another thread titled ‘projects that haven’t fully thought through their service plans’).

So, if you are travelling to Heathrow from beyond either of Portsmouth and Basingstoke, you have to change trains into a half hourly service there, or 4tph service at Woking. Interchange penalty. Then from Woking to Heathrow was not going to be quick - fitting in with the existing slow line service, thence via Chertsey. Then, dwell time at Heathrow 2-3 minutes at each of the stations, before getting on to the GWML. (Aligning paths from the SWML to the GWML is a non trivial issue either, expect pathing time a plenty). Then the journey time to OOC, which would of course depend on whether the Heathrow Southern trains were extensions of Crossrail or HEx. Then the interchange at OOC.

It all adds up, and you have to change twice, one of them into a 4tph service at best. In comparison, staying on the train you are already on, changing onto the Northern line at Waterloo (20tph minimum) and boarding at Euston - whilst longer in mileage and is also two changes - can actually be quicker in generalised journey time.

Of course the situation is different for passengers from Basingstoke, Guildford and Woking, and the intermediate stations the Heathrow service was proposed to call at (which was not many).
Thanks. However I think that avoiding London and the tube would be very popular. Changing at stations rather than marching miles round underground, and generally avoiding the crush, heat, and filth.
And before Covid keeping those extra people off the tube would be welcome!
 

kevin_roche

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Found this on the Yahoo News site.


Heathrow is set to introduce a £5 passenger drop-off fee for travellers arriving at the airport by car or taxi.
The move is expected to bring in as much as £100 million a year.
 

zwk500

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Found this on the Yahoo News site.

Was only a matter of time, Luton have had that for a while now. I doubt it'll push anybody onto rail that wasn't already using it though.
 

kevin_roche

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Was only a matter of time, Luton have had that for a while now. I doubt it'll push anybody onto rail that wasn't already using it though.
Unfortunately, Hampshire residents don't have the choice of rail. The rail air bus from Woking is unreliable and I certainly would not want a change at Reading, followed by a change at Hayes and Harlington.
 

hwl

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Was only a matter of time, Luton have had that for a while now. I doubt it'll push anybody onto rail that wasn't already using it though.
I'd largely agree but I reckon full Crossrail service will have an impact on some London bound airport users.
 

zwk500

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I'd largely agree but I reckon full Crossrail service will have an impact on some London bound airport users.
I agree entirely with that, but that would happen with or without having to cough up a fiver to drop off.
 

coppercapped

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Was this (or indeed the Woking coach link) ever used at a level exceeding it's capacity? If a regular bus was fulfilling the demand then it's difficult to justify the need for a rail connection.
I don't know about the Woking coach, but at certain times of the day and days of the week the Reading service can (pre-Covid of course) be quite full, say 40 or so people - I have never seen anyone standing but that is no longer permitted and, anyway, at peak times there will be another coach 20 minutes later.

You are correct in saying that the coach loadings would not justify a rail connection, but that was never the original purpose of the coach link. This was to attract extra passengers to the railway and as long as the income paid the coach operating expenses with some left over it was additional income for the railway at no cost.

The justification for the western rail approach was, as I understand it, to increase the penetration of the market addressed by the coach service by speeding up the journey from points west of Reading and by adding a fast service to Heathrow from Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough. Not all people using the service from points east of Reading would be airline passengers as I understand that many people working at Heathrow live in this area and would benefit from a rail link rather than driving.

Whether these additional passengers generate sufficient revenue to make a positive business case is beyond my ken.

Added in edit: I've overlooked Bald Rick's comment in post #91 that the business case was stellar.
 
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camflyer

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Found this on the Yahoo News site.


Heathrow have also stopped funding the free use of local buses around the airport perimeter. Always handy for getting to the airport from a Bath Rd hotel rather than pay for a Hoppa service.
 

InOban

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Apart from these rail/Air coaches from Reading and Woking, there are also long distance coaches to Heathrow from many parts of England. Indeed the coach station is a major interchange in the National Express network.
 

nw1

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A western approach to LHR would benefit most of the rest of the country apart from the south-east. I guess that's why it's a low priority?

They can change at OOC easily as has already been said.

Surrey/Hampshire to Heathrow is a long-standing 'missing link' and I for one would welcome it, both for Heathrow itself and for the ease of access to the future HS2.

<cynicism>Anyway, knowing this government, I suspect they are more keen to please wherever their marginal constituencies are, rather than necessarily the south-east.</cynicism>
 

camflyer

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They can change at OOC easily as has already been said.

Surrey/Hampshire to Heathrow is a long-standing 'missing link' and I for one would welcome it, both for Heathrow itself and for the ease of access to the future HS2.

<cynicism>Anyway, knowing this government, I suspect they are more keen to please wherever their marginal constituencies are, rather than necessarily the south-east.</cynicism>

I used to live in Guildford which is only about 25 miles from Heathrow but would take about two hours to get there by rail and you couldn't trust the bus as it would just get stuck on the M25. In all the years I lived there I only used Gatwick. It was only when I moved further away that Heathrow became easier to get to.
 

Class 170101

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The Heathrow Southern proposal was for 2tph from each of Basingstoke and Guildford. (Quite where those trains would terminate at Basingstoke and Guildford was unclear, and could be the subject of another thread titled ‘projects that haven’t fully thought through their service plans’).
Might that issue go away because what SWR have recently published and being discussed elsewhere on this board that the number of services post pandemic compared to pre-pandemic will be lower thus relasing space for these services?
So, if you are travelling to Heathrow from beyond either of Portsmouth and Basingstoke, you have to change trains into a half hourly service there, or 4tph service at Woking. Interchange penalty. Then from Woking to Heathrow was not going to be quick - fitting in with the existing slow line service, thence via Chertsey. Then, dwell time at Heathrow 2-3 minutes at each of the stations, before getting on to the GWML. (Aligning paths from the SWML to the GWML is a non trivial issue either, expect pathing time a plenty). Then the journey time to OOC, which would of course depend on whether the Heathrow Southern trains were extensions of Crossrail or HEx. Then the interchange at OOC.
I always though it was extension of HEX services towards Guildford / Basingstoke and hopefully the south coast. The dwell time at Heathrow will be inevitable due to luggage. Whether you would be able to link well between GWML and SWML in terms of timetabling I wouldn't know but perhaps the long dwell at Heathrow might help this conundrum.
It all adds up, and you have to change twice, one of them into a 4tph service at best. In comparison, staying on the train you are already on, changing onto the Northern line at Waterloo (20tph minimum) and boarding at Euston - whilst longer in mileage and is also two changes - can actually be quicker in generalised journey time.
Frankly lugging your bags on the Underground does not really appeal either from experience given it would be up and down stairs and limited, though increasing, provision of lifts.
 

JN114

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I think there were some aspirations from the promoters to extend HEx along their southern extension; however I’m not sure those aspirations were ever shared by either Heathrow Express or the Airport.

Western extension is cheaper, caters for more of the Airport’s employment catchment, is under the projected site of the NW expansion of the airport so could provide direct rail access to any new terminal(s) built, and the capacity for trains to use it exists on the line it is connecting to (it can slot into gaps on the reliefs left by Crossrail trains to the Airport)

Plus business case being better, more interest from Airport and Stakeholders etc - if Western Access is struggling to get funded, Southern has no hope.
 

Bald Rick

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Might that issue go away because what SWR have recently published and being discussed elsewhere on this board that the number of services post pandemic compared to pre-pandemic will be lower thus relasing space for these services?
Unlikely. Terminating at either is troublesome even with (slightly) reduced services.


I always though it was extension of HEX services towards Guildford / Basingstoke and hopefully the south coast.
It was never confirmed either way. And they defitely weren’t going to the south coast.



but perhaps the long dwell at Heathrow might help this conundrum.

It would make no difference.

Frankly lugging your bags on the Underground does not really appeal either from experience given it would be up and down stairs and limited, though increasing, provision of lifts.

Lugging bags down to the underground and back up again (mostly with escalators) isn’t that much different to lugging bags up to a footbridge and back down again at Guildford / Basingstoke / Woking and again at OOC.
 

Meerkat

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Lugging bags down to the underground and back up again (mostly with escalators) isn’t that much different to lugging bags up to a footbridge and back down again at Guildford / Basingstoke / Woking and again at OOC.
A railway station footbridge is far better than the long narrow escalators on the underground, plus the miles of walking in tunnels and trying to find your way. Unless you are really in a hurry you can hang back a minute and the footbridge up is near empty.
 
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