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Heathrow Western Access comes to a Standstill

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davews

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In the past when I used to do regular holiday flights for Bracknell it was a choice of either the Feltham rail link bus (now a normal TFL bus) or underground via Richmond. The bus was fastest when it used to use the south tunnel but when that stopped via Richmond was quicker. Didn't even think of using the rail air link from Reading, that would have taken yonks. Bracknell has long been one of those places where getting to Heathrow other than by car is far from easy.
(of course there is now the 703 bus via Ascot and Slough, equally slow (but free with an oldies bus pass) and only an hourly service.)
 
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The Ham

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Lugging bags down to the underground and back up again (mostly with escalators) isn’t that much different to lugging bags up to a footbridge and back down again at Guildford / Basingstoke / Woking and again at OOC

Guildford has a ramped underpass as well as a bridge.

Woking has two bridges, one which is served only by lifts (Eastern end of the platforms near the old signal box).

Basingstoke has no bridge, it's got an underpass - again served by lifts.

All therefore potentially easier to change at than Waterloo where it can involve some very long walks to get from platform to platform.
 

Ianno87

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A railway station footbridge is far better than the long narrow escalators on the underground, plus the miles of walking in tunnels and trying to find your way. Unless you are really in a hurry you can hang back a minute and the footbridge up is near empty.

Has anybody ever produced any actual evidence as to how big a deterrent this actually is? It seems largely anecdotal, as plenty of people still connect via London regardless.
 

Meerkat

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Has anybody ever produced any actual evidence as to how big a deterrent this actually is? It seems largely anecdotal, as plenty of people still connect via London regardless.
Because there isn’t any real option!
I would take the train to the north far more often if I didn’t have to spend ages on the tube across London (could go to Basingrad for XC but that is slow and without compulsory booking can get horribly crowded).
I actually walk terminus to terminus, at least on the way out!
 

camflyer

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Has anybody ever produced any actual evidence as to how big a deterrent this actually is? It seems largely anecdotal, as plenty of people still connect via London regardless.

A classic example of "observer bias". You are seeing all of the people who aren't put off or who have no other choice. You aren't seeing all those who are dettered. When I was a student I'd regularly cross London from Waterloo to Kings Cross with two big bags (as I was too skint to pay for a taxi) though I wouldn't do it now.
 

Grumpy Git

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I've always walked from Euston to St Pancras (and back), even with a weeks/fornights worth of luggage. I always walk from Euston to Euston Square if picking-up the Piccadilly line to LHR too, BUT I would not do this if travelling with SWMBO.
 

kevin_roche

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I tried going on the tube from Waterloo to Euston with Luggage once. Never again. When I went on Eurostar 2 years ago I took the bus from Waterloo to Kings Cross and it was much easier than the tube. I would never choose to go to Heathrow via central London. I just book via Gatwick instead and drive there where I can afford to park.
 

Meerkat

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I tried going on the tube from Waterloo to Euston with Luggage once. Never again. When I went on Eurostar 2 years ago I took the bus from Waterloo to Kings Cross and it was much easier than the tube. I would never choose to go to Heathrow via central London. I just book via Gatwick instead and drive there where I can afford to park.
And….people with big rucksacks on the tube are a nightmare, and suitcases on the escalators are just dangerous.
 

camflyer

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I've always walked from Euston to St Pancras (and back), even with a weeks/fornights worth of luggage. I always walk from Euston to Euston Square if picking-up the Piccadilly line to LHR too, BUT I would not do this if travelling with SWMBO.

I like the walk from Euston to StP/KX as there is so much to see and do on the way. It has taken me 2-3 hours to get between stations depending on how many pubs I stop in along the way.
 

D6975

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There are several London inter-terminus journeys that I always walk. Euston-StP/KGX, Liverpool St-Cannon St, Fenchurch St-London Br, Padd-Marylebone.
 

Ianno87

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A classic example of "observer bias". You are seeing all of the people who aren't put off or who have no other choice. You aren't seeing all those who are dettered. When I was a student I'd regularly cross London from Waterloo to Kings Cross with two big bags (as I was too skint to pay for a taxi) though I wouldn't do it now.

Of course *some* people are put off. That's obvious.

But how much is demand actually suppressed by? 1%? 10%? 50%? Given that even if there was a tube-free route available, the M25 remains an attractive alternative, so level of actual suppression may not be that high.
 

Meerkat

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There are several London inter-terminus journeys that I always walk. Euston-StP/KGX, Liverpool St-Cannon St, Fenchurch St-London Br, Padd-Marylebone.
Unless I am really pressed for time I usually walk all of them from Waterloo.
Don’t walk back from Euston Road in dark though, because I don’t know the back streets that well and it would be boring in the dark (so it’s annoying that LUL don’t let you escape early - can’t see the logic of that)
the M25 remains an attractive alternative
In peak or weekends the M25 is a long long way from attractive!
 

The Ham

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Of course *some* people are put off. That's obvious.

But how much is demand actually suppressed by? 1%? 10%? 50%? Given that even if there was a tube-free route available, the M25 remains an attractive alternative, so level of actual suppression may not be that high.

To be honest I don't know.

However what I do know is that with a journey time to Manchester, York, Leeds or Newcastle about an hour faster from OOC than from Kings Cross there's likely to be a lot from Surrey and Hampshire (or the other way) who would be very happy to have a simple station change rather than a cross London interchange.

Probably enough to justify the existence of the Southern Approach services, even if air passenger numbers stay significantly down on where they were.

Until you try it, it's almost unbelievable just how long it takes to get between Woking and Bracknell, and there's several other town pairings in and around that area where rail could be an option. However it isn't because the focus has always been in/out of London.

Now whilst that's been fine (and created significant rail use) the Southern Approach services would create a the ability for far more journeys to be viable.

The other thing to bear in mind is that even 1% of the Off Peak SWML traffic through Woking wanting to use it for connecting to HS2 services is likely to be fairly significant.

Pre Covid, it wasn't unusual for off peak services to have people standing (now some of that was due to 3 to 5 coach trains being used, but not all) at Woking.
 

AlbertBeale

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I tried going on the tube from Waterloo to Euston with Luggage once. Never again. When I went on Eurostar 2 years ago I took the bus from Waterloo to Kings Cross and it was much easier than the tube. I would never choose to go to Heathrow via central London. I just book via Gatwick instead and drive there where I can afford to park.

The useful direct bus route between Waterloo and KX/StP was a victim of the various London bus cutbacks that have happened in the last couple of years; especially frustrating given it's the only major terminal stations link without a direct underground connection either. Given the hassle and time involved in changing buses en route, I'd say the tube (with the cross-platform change at Oxford Circus) is now less hassle than a bus for that journey - except at busy times when the tube (the Vic anyway) can be jammed.
 

Horizon22

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In peak or weekends the M25 is a long long way from attractive!

Quite! I don't live in that part of the world anymore, but it could often be awful (although sometimes strangely steady). That being said it probably is more reasonable than train routes at present for many, especially well-heeled Surrey and Hampshire families and they'll accept the extortionate parking charges (and even the new £5 drop-off won't deter them).

Let's not forget that for generations because of the geographical connections, Heathrow has been more important to the West side of London and Berkshire, and - whilst significant - slightly less so for Surrey.
 

BluePenguin

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Because there isn’t any real option!
I would take the train to the north far more often if I didn’t have to spend ages on the tube across London (could go to Basingrad for XC but that is slow and without compulsory booking can get horribly crowded).
I actually walk terminus to terminus, at least on the way out!

A classic example of "observer bias". You are seeing all of the people who aren't put off or who have no other choice. You aren't seeing all those who are dettered. When I was a student I'd regularly cross London from Waterloo to Kings Cross with two big bags (as I was too skint to pay for a taxi) though I wouldn't do it now.

I've always walked from Euston to St Pancras (and back), even with a weeks/fornights worth of luggage. I always walk from Euston to Euston Square if picking-up the Piccadilly line to LHR too, BUT I would not do this if travelling with SWMBO.

I tried going on the tube from Waterloo to Euston with Luggage once. Never again. When I went on Eurostar 2 years ago I took the bus from Waterloo to Kings Cross and it was much easier than the tube. I would never choose to go to Heathrow via central London. I just book via Gatwick instead and drive there where I can afford to park.

And….people with big rucksacks on the tube are a nightmare, and suitcases on the escalators are just dangerous.

Unless I am really pressed for time I usually walk all of them from Waterloo.
Don’t walk back from Euston Road in dark though, because I don’t know the back streets that well and it would be boring in the dark (so it’s annoying that LUL don’t let you escape early - can’t see the logic of that)

In peak or weekends the M25 is a long long way from attractive!


Goodness me I amazed!! Surely nobody has time for walking that distance with bags. Have none of you heard of the Thameslink from London Bridge to St Pancras? King’s Cross and Euston are only a short walk away. Much quicker than walking and only slightly slower than the tube. No need to exhaust yourself carrying heavy bags or being forced to use CrossCountry to avoid getting the underground. As a student at Southampton I would always head for the Thameslink on arrival at Waterloo as my default, as did most of my friends heading to the North.

I once took my large suitcase onto the Picadilly line and was huffed and puffed at very loudly. Oversized suitcases on the tube are/were a big issue that crossrail will hopefully solve one day
 
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Horizon22

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I once took my large suitcase onto the Picadilly line and was huffed and puffed at very loudly. Oversized suitcases on the tube are/were a big issue that crossrail will hopefully solve one day

What are you talking about? The Piccadilly line has the "priority luggage" area that is always adhered to obviously! /sarcasm
 

camflyer

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Goodness me I amazed!! Surely nobody has time for walking that distance with bags. Have none of you heard of the Thameslink from London Bridge to St Pancras? King’s Cross and Euston are only a short walk away. Much quicker than walking and only slightly slower than the tube. No need to exhaust yourself carrying heavy bags or being forced to use CrossCountry to avoid getting the underground. As a student at Southampton I would always head for the Thameslink on arrival at Waterloo as my default, as did most of my friends heading to the North.

I once took my large suitcase onto the Picadilly line and was huffed and puffed at very loudly. Oversized suitcases on the tube are/were a big issue that crossrail will hopefully solve one day

As a student I used to regularly use the direct Reading to Newcastle InterCity service to avoid crossing London or having to change at Birmingham New St. Always seemed to be a strange route but it was useful to me.
 

Sean Emmett

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In the past when I used to do regular holiday flights for Bracknell it was a choice of either the Feltham rail link bus (now a normal TFL bus) or underground via Richmond. The bus was fastest when it used to use the south tunnel but when that stopped via Richmond was quicker. Didn't even think of using the rail air link from Reading, that would have taken yonks. Bracknell has long been one of those places where getting to Heathrow other than by car is far from easy.
(of course there is now the 703 bus via Ascot and Slough, equally slow (but free with an oldies bus pass) and only an hourly service.)
A pity they didn't extend the Piccadilly line to Feltham. Would have been much more reliable than the bus.

Even now, a tube shuttle Feltham - T4 - T1/3 - T5 would be a lot better than the present arrangements, with no prospect of Southern / Western heavy rail access for the foreseeable.
 

flitwickbeds

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As a student at Southampton I would always head for the Thameslink on arrival at Waterloo as my default, as did most of my friends heading to the North.
I presume you mean SouthEastern services from Waterloo East to London Bridge, then connecting to Thameslink?

Thameslink doesn't run from Waterloo nor Waterloo East. Also your proposed journey from Waterloo to Euston would involve two changes of train, a walk between St Pancras Low Level and Euston, plus humping bags between platforms at two very large terminal stations. I'm pretty sure walking the whole length would come pretty close, time-wise, to doing all of that.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I presume you mean SouthEastern services from Waterloo East to London Bridge, then connecting to Thameslink?

Thameslink doesn't run from Waterloo nor Waterloo East. Also your proposed journey from Waterloo to Euston would involve two changes of train, a walk between St Pancras Low Level and Euston, plus humping bags between platforms at two very large terminal stations. I'm pretty sure walking the whole length would come pretty close, time-wise, to doing all of that.

I'm a bit surprised by this discussion, as the Northern line seems pretty convenient to me if you need to get from Waterloo to Euston/Kings Cross. If I was making that journey across London with bags, I can't see many circumstances in which I wouldn't use the tube. Thameslink - as you imply - is great IF you're coming in to London Bridge, not Waterloo.

Speculating a bit, Blackfriars isn't that much of a walk from Waterloo, so maybe that's one way of doing it if you need to go Waterloo-Kings Cross/Euston and you're dead set against using the tube (not sure how entry/exit at Blackfriars works for ticket validity though if it's a national rail ticket with cross-London tube transfer included)
 

matt_world2004

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Isn't Blackfriars a relatively easy walk to Waterloo east from the southern end. I think it is even an OSI at Southwark
 

SynthD

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Yes, though not a great one in the context of luggage, all types of people, tourists. The last 50m could be improved (from Blackfriars Road to station entrance) if you were sending more people this way.
 

camflyer

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A pity they didn't extend the Piccadilly line to Feltham. Would have been much more reliable than the bus.

Even now, a tube shuttle Feltham - T4 - T1/3 - T5 would be a lot better than the present arrangements, with no prospect of Southern / Western heavy rail access for the foreseeable.

Yes, a Tube line would really help Feltham. Even though it's only a few miles from Heathrow and on the mainline, it still feels like a forgotten backwater of London.

Mind you, I often stop at the Feltham Travelodge when attending Twickenham or the Oval as it is usually one of the cheapest hotels in London but is easy to get to and right next to the station.
 

BluePenguin

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I presume you mean SouthEastern services from Waterloo East to London Bridge, then connecting to Thameslink?

Thameslink doesn't run from Waterloo nor Waterloo East. Also your proposed journey from Waterloo to Euston would involve two changes of train, a walk between St Pancras Low Level and Euston, plus humping bags between platforms at two very large terminal stations. I'm pretty sure walking the whole length would come pretty close, time-wise, to doing all of that.
Absolutely, that is exactly what I mean.

I used to do this journey very often and it did not take much longer than 25 minutes. Sometimes 20 minutes if the connections were good. This is enormously quicker than walking and walking and only slightly slower than the tube. Southeastern and Thameslink frequently throughout the day

I would much rather change twice than be walking for miles with a suitcase. Both stations are terminals with good lifts anyway. Meanwhile walking from Waterloo to St Pancras however takes me 1 hour with a suitcase. A lot sweatier than the first option

if only there was a direct connection between the Waterloo and Kings Cross, that would make things so much easier. We can dream….
 

gallafent

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if only there was a direct connection between the Waterloo and Kings Cross, that would make things so much easier. We can dream….
Hmm, closest I can find to a single-hop route is the number 68 (or 168) bus — you can take that from Waterloo Station to Upper Woburn Place (just off Euston Road) and then walk 11 minutes to KX. Total journey time 26 minutes …

You can also walk from Waterloo to Southwark station, then take the 63 bus to King's Cross from there. Total journey time 30 minutes by that route though.

Fastest public transport option is still the tube with a change though (Jubilee -> Green Park -> Victoria) … 19 minutes.

Bike beats everything very easily, at 2.3 miles / 15 minutes, though. Walking a poor option at 51 minutes. Someone must make draggable luggage that can be used as a bike trailer by clamping it to the seat post, I assume. Would be rather handy for using with bike hire / e-bike hire, when in a city without one's own bike (and with some luggage).
 

zwk500

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if only there was a direct connection between the Waterloo and Kings Cross, that would make things so much easier. We can dream….
Well there's a direct connection between Vauxhall and King's Cross, although if that requires changing at Clapham Junction I guess it isn't necessarily an improvement. What you really need is Crossrail 2.
 

Sean Emmett

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if only there was a direct connection between the Waterloo and Kings Cross, that would make things so much easier. We can dream….
I gather LU did a survey of routes people took from Waterloo to Kings Cross, and were genuinely surprised by the results.

I usually do Bakerloo to Oxford Circus, for cross platform interchange to Victoria line. But agree there's a lenghty walk once you get to Kings Cross.

Some of the Ascot trains stop at Vauxhall, which offers direct Victoria line to KGX. Have tried it on occasion, but changing at Vauxhall is quite a trek as well.
 

Bald Rick

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Isn't Blackfriars a relatively easy walk to Waterloo east from the southern end. I think it is even an OSI at Southwark

Relatively easy, yes - if you’re willing to negotiate at least one set of escalators /stairs, more if you don’t want to cross a couple of busy main roads on the flat. I used to do it every day, and allowed 15 minutes platform to platform (and apparently I’m a quick walker). In that time, using the Northern line, I’d usually be at Euston already.


I usually do Bakerloo to Oxford Circus, for cross platform interchange to Victoria line. But agree there's a lenghty walk once you get to Kings Cross.

It’s not that long if you are at the back of the Vic line train and go via the old concourse.

Some of the Ascot trains stop at Vauxhall, which offers direct Victoria line to KGX. Have tried it on occasion, but changing at Vauxhall is quite a trek as well.

It really isn’t.
 

AlbertBeale

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I'm a bit surprised by this discussion, as the Northern line seems pretty convenient to me if you need to get from Waterloo to Euston/Kings Cross. If I was making that journey across London with bags, I can't see many circumstances in which I wouldn't use the tube. Thameslink - as you imply - is great IF you're coming in to London Bridge, not Waterloo.

Speculating a bit, Blackfriars isn't that much of a walk from Waterloo, so maybe that's one way of doing it if you need to go Waterloo-Kings Cross/Euston and you're dead set against using the tube (not sure how entry/exit at Blackfriars works for ticket validity though if it's a national rail ticket with cross-London tube transfer included)

The Northern is indeed fine between Waterloo and Euston - but KX/StP is on a different branch of the Northern Line from Waterloo; in that case (Waterloo-KX) far and away the easiest is the Bakerloo/Victoria route with the cross-platform interchange at Ox Circ.

For Waterloo-Euston, if you don't want to use the tube, there are several direct bus routes (68, 168, 59). The idea of doing that via Blackfriars and Thameslink is really bizarre - in the time taken by the walk from Waterloo to Blackfriars, plus the walk from St P to Euston, you'd do more than half the way from Waterloo to Euston anyway.

Hmm, closest I can find to a single-hop route is the number 68 (or 168) bus — you can take that from Waterloo Station to Upper Woburn Place (just off Euston Road) and then walk 11 minutes to KX. Total journey time 26 minutes …

You can also walk from Waterloo to Southwark station, then take the 63 bus to King's Cross from there. Total journey time 30 minutes by that route though.

Fastest public transport option is still the tube with a change though (Jubilee -> Green Park -> Victoria) … 19 minutes.

Bike beats everything very easily, at 2.3 miles / 15 minutes, though. Walking a poor option at 51 minutes. Someone must make draggable luggage that can be used as a bike trailer by clamping it to the seat post, I assume. Would be rather handy for using with bike hire / e-bike hire, when in a city without one's own bike (and with some luggage).

I presume these routes/timings are off of some hopeless website system without human intervention to turn them into sense? For Waterloo to Kings Cross via the 63 bus you'd never go via Southwark station [unless you wanted to go 1 stop on the Jubilee Line for the hell of it, with a hike to and from platforms at each end ... and slow down the journey even more]. From Waterloo you'd head along Stamford Street (same as if you were going to Blackfriars) and - from the main entrance to Waterloo - reach the 63 route as quick if not more quickly than you'd get to Southwark station; and you'd be 2 or 3 stops nearer KX on the 63 by then.

And taking into account ease/speed of interchange en route, not to mention differing accessibility of different tube platforms at Waterloo, then Bakerloo and Victoria (via Ox Circ) beats Jubilee and Victoria (via Green Park) any day.

Getting any of the 3 bus routes from Waterloo to Euston, if you get off at Upper Woburn Place as suggested, then - if there's a 91 coming along behind - use that and it'll get you to KX/StP without the walk.
 
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