Help! Given caution for forgotten railcard (valid)

[ale14]

Hello, I am quite scared after what happened today and I apologise for the long post but I don’t really know what to do. I bought an open return ticket on trainline this morning from Claygate to Guildford using my 16-25 railcard (I’m 18 years old) which was originally £14 but discounted to £12. On arriving a SWR worker asked to scan my ticket, and also asked for my railcard - which I did not have on me, as I had left it at home. I usually travel with a season ticket on a smart card for which the discount does not apply, so I don’t normally keep the railcard on hand. However, the season ticket has just expired which is why I bought the ticket on trainline. I was then asked to provide my ID, which he took from me while he noted down my information. He asked me if the railcard is expired and I said its valid till next year (which on checking is 2022). I asked him what would happen and he said I would be contacted and would need to present my railcard. I was about to miss my school bus and was worried about being late which I expressed to him, at the time thinking this was no serious issue, as I do indeed possess a valid railcard which I had simply forgotten. He walked with me through the barrier and said things which I didn’t hear (as it was so noisy) but he ended with “Do you understand this caution?” I said no and he repeated and said “You do not have to say anything. You do not have a legal defence, anything that you say can be held against you in a court of law.”

At this point upon hearing this I was extremely stressed and just missed my bus, I had never heard of a caution before and didn’t know what it meant, and I responded with “Ok”. On searching it up I am now very scared as a caution can be put on a criminal record, which can be seen on DBS checks. I am heading for a medical career, in which DBS checks are mandatory and I can’t afford to have anything on my record - all for forgetting my railcard at home! I really don’t know what to do now but I have a few questions I haven’t been able to find answers to:

1. On researching similar situations, I have read people who have been interviewed under caution by train inspectors for which they were told beforehand. He only said the caution at the end of our conversation and did not say what it meant - he only said I was getting it because I forgot my railcard - what does this mean? Was I issued an actual caution from him?
2. I have no problem in presenting my railcard if asked as it is fully valid, but even if I do so, will I have a caution? It just seems so absurd for such a human mistake.
3. Other people who have forgotten their railcard and been fined said this has happened because theirs had expired. Mine is valid, does this change things for me?
4. Should I contact SWR or wait to hear from them?

Any advice about this and the caution would be really appreciated. I’m a sixth form student and have never experienced anything like this, so hearing the caution was extremely scary for me and can have serious implications on my future career. I never thought forgetting my railcard would lead me to a situation like this, but I definitely won't ever forget it again.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Others will be along in a minute but a couple of points spring to mind...

Firstly, you will not get a criminal record. In the grand scheme of things, it is a trivial, and common mistake to forget one's railcard

As you did not have your railcard on you, technically, your ticket was not valid

Who was the SWR worker? Platform/gateline staff or a revenue inspector? What opportunities did he give you for presenting your railcard?

I don't understand why you were cautioned if he said you would be contacted with an opportunity to present your railcard

Normally, you would wait for a letter from the train company (South Western Railway) asking for your version of events.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

Don't worry too much about the caution - there are two different sorts. The one that you have just had is cautioning you that anything you say could be used in court; the other is after the police have decided that you have done something wrong and caution you that if you do it again you will be in trouble. It's the second sort (and only the second sort) that is recorded and can appear on your DBS record.

As for travelling without your Railcard, as long as this is the only time that you have done this, you probably have nothing to worry about. The FAQs on the 16-25 Railcard website tell us

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare?
If you are travelling by train on a ticket with a Railcard discount, you must travel with your valid Railcard. If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare. However, a train company will normally allow you to claim back this extra expense on the first occasion in each year where this happens.

Each train company will have their own process for doing this. You will need to provide proof of your Railcard and either the original and additional tickets that you have purchased, or if you have not yet paid, details of the notice to pay or notice of Penalty Fare. Where you have already paid for additional tickets you should contact the relevant train company’s customer services department; in the case of a notice to pay of notice of Penalty Fare, you should follow the instructions included on how to challenge or appeal the charge.

(source https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/hel...ve-to-buy-a-new-ticket-or-pay-a-penalty-fare/).

So you can probably wait for SWR to write to you before writing to them. They will explain what they want to see (probably a picture of your Railcard) and by waiting for them you will be able to give them the case reference - which should stop your correspondence getting lost.

 

[30907]

There are two sorts of caution: the one that would appear on a DBS is a police caution which is given and accepted in place of taking someone to court.
You were "interviewed under caution" which (leaving aside whether it was correctly done) is part of the evidence gathering process.
So you need not worry about the DBS issue.

I am afraid you will have to wait until you hear from the railway to discover whether they intend to take you to court/offer an out of court settlement for not having a valid ticket, or whether they simply want you to prove you have a railcard.

Sorry for the duplicate post.

 

[ale14]

Others will be along in a minute but a couple of points spring to mind...

Firstly, you will not get a criminal record. In the grand scheme of things, it is a trivial, and common mistake to forget one's railcard

As you did not have your railcard on you, technically, your ticket was not valid

Who was the SWR worker? Platform/gateline staff or a revenue inspector? What opportunities did he give you for presenting your railcard?

I don't understand why you were cautioned if he said you would be contacted with an opportunity to present your railcard

Normally, you would wait for a letter from the train company (South Western Railway) asking for your version of events.

Thank you for your reply. I believe he was gateline staff, but I can't be certain. As I had to scan the QR code I went towards the larger barrier for wheelchairs etc. there's usually only one worker there, but today there were two others who were scanning tickets off a handheld device, which was how he scanned mine. After scanning it he only asked for my railcard which I told him I had forgotten, he then told me something along the lines of that he was writing a report and needed to see my ID, which I gave to him. I offered to show him my railcard receipt or my SWR photo card to which he said no. Throughout writing he was silent and I asked what I would need to do to resolve this to which he replied I will be contacted and asked to present my railcard. This is not what worried me, but the caution. I have no clue as to why it was given either. He said it right at the end, whilst saying something along the lines of "I have to give you a caution because you don't have your railcard". Note, this is after he asked if it was expired and I told him it wasn't.

Welcome to the forum.

Don't worry too much about the caution - there are two different sorts. The one that you have just had is cautioning you that anything you say could be used in court; the other is after the police have decided that you have done something wrong and caution you that if you do it again you will be in trouble. It's the second sort (and only the second sort) that is recorded and can appear on your DBS record.

As for travelling without your Railcard, as long as this is the only time that you have done this, you probably have nothing to worry about. The FAQs on the 16-25 Railcard website tell us

(source https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/hel...ve-to-buy-a-new-ticket-or-pay-a-penalty-fare/).

So you can probably wait for SWR to write to you before writing to them. They will explain what they want to see (probably a picture of your Railcard) and by waiting for them you will be able to give them the case reference - which should stop your correspondence getting lost.

Hello, thank you very much for your reply. Thank you for clarifying, that definitely has taken a weight off my chest! Yes, this is the first time this has ever happened. Hopefully I'll be able to resolve it without major issues.

There are two sorts of caution: the one that would appear on a DBS is a police caution which is given and accepted in place of taking someone to court.
You were "interviewed under caution" which (leaving aside whether it was correctly done) is part of the evidence gathering process.
So you need not worry about the DBS issue.

I am afraid you will have to wait until you hear from the railway to discover whether they intend to take you to court/offer an out of court settlement for not having a valid ticket, or whether they simply want you to prove you have a railcard.

Sorry for the duplicate post.

Thank you very much for clarifying. Would they really take me to court for forgetting it even if its valid? I do hope they don't. But of course I do expect they will want to fine me, but as Fawkes Cat included in their post, will I be able to claim it back as this is the first time its happened?

 

[221129]

Would they really take me to court for forgetting it even if its valid?

Potentially yes. And they are well within their rights to.

but as Fawkes Cat included in their post, will I be able to claim it back as this is the first time its happened?

That only applies if you buy a new undiscounted ticket or are issued a penalty fare. Neither of which apply here.

 

[ale14]

Potentially yes. And they are well within their rights to.


That only applies if you buy a new undiscounted ticket or are issued a penalty fare. Neither of which apply here.

I wasn't told then that buying an undiscounted ticket was an option, and would a penalty fare only be issued immediately? This only happened today so I am yet to receive any correspondence from SWR. The 16-25 FAQ doesn't say anything about going to court, only about buying a new ticket or a penalty fare if you've forgotten your railcard. Their leaflet also says "If you receive a penalty fare or unpaid fare notice for failing to show your Railcard, you can ask us to cancel it. We’ll only give one refund in any 12 month period."

 

[221129]

I wasn't told then that buying an undiscounted ticket was an option, and would a penalty fare only be issued immediately

A PF would be issued immediately. Neither of the above options are a right. And discussion of such isnt relevant or helpful to you.

 

[Western Sunset]

I thought that if you'd forgotten your (valid) Railcard, you had one chance to tell the powers at be without any repercussions. Has this changed?

No wonder folks find travelling by rail daunting if one slight innocent moment of forgetfulness can lead to talk of courts, criminal records and the like.

 

[Haywain]

A PF would be issued immediately. Neither of the above options are a right. And discussion of such isnt relevant or helpful to you.

In any event, SWR do not have a Penalty Fare scheme and therefore cannot issue a PF.

Edit: Talking rubbish!

 

[alastair]

In any event, SWR do not have a Penalty Fare scheme and therefore cannot issue a PF.

So is this wrong/obsolete? : https://www.southwesternrailway.com/other/about-us/penalty-faresrevenue-protection

 

[ale14]

In any event, SWR do not have a Penalty Fare scheme and therefore cannot issue a PF.

I believe they do? : https://www.southwesternrailway.com/other/about-us/penalty-faresrevenue-protection

 

[Islineclear3_1]

But you were not given a penalty fare and thus this isn't relevant in your case

Just wait for the letter from SWR

 

[WesternLancer]

I wasn't told then that buying an undiscounted ticket was an option, and would a penalty fare only be issued immediately? This only happened today so I am yet to receive any correspondence from SWR. The 16-25 FAQ doesn't say anything about going to court, only about buying a new ticket or a penalty fare if you've forgotten your railcard. Their leaflet also says "If you receive a penalty fare or unpaid fare notice for failing to show your Railcard, you can ask us to cancel it. We’ll only give one refund in any 12 month period."

Very likely this will be resolved under the 'one chance if you forget your railcard' policy. As has been said, wait for them to write to you, then also get more advice on here as and when you need it. Try not to worry too much.

 

[Haywain]

I believe they do? : https://www.southwesternrailway.com/other/about-us/penalty-faresrevenue-protection

Your right, I’m wrong and now wondering where I got that idea from!

 

[RPI]

Most TOC's now run a kind of "producer" procedure for forgotten railcards, at GWR RPI'S are told to complete a "proforma" MG11, this a exactly what it says on the tin, a proforma MG11 with pre set questions which to summarise basically ask the journey, the ticket, do you own a railcard and can you produce it if written to by GWR, the final question its stated to the customer that as long as they can produce a railcard that was valid for today's date and time of journey and they haven't done it before then just a railcard warning will be issued.

Ticket Examiners and guards are asked to do a TIR/UFN/PFN as appropriate with the customer advised to send a copy of their railcard, also on the rear of GWR Penalty fare notices there are questions and answers and one is regarding the above situation and states to send a copy to an email address.

All of the above mean the the customer is not out of pocket at the time having to then chase around for a refund.

 

[robbeech]

Potentially yes. And they are well within their rights to.


That only applies if you buy a new undiscounted ticket or are issued a penalty fare. Neither of which apply here.

So, to get around the bit where a passenger genuinely forgets a railcard just once in a year by letting them buy a ticket and get it refunded, operators are no longer allowing passengers the opportunity to buy an undiscounted ticket and are referring them straight for prosecution?
Now, a cynical person would drop in a reminder that fare revenue isn't passed to the operator but revenue from penalties / prosecutions is, but perhaps that wouldn't be appropriate.

 

[RPI]

So, to get around the bit where a passenger genuinely forgets a railcard just once in a year by letting them buy a ticket and get it refunded, operators are no longer allowing passengers the opportunity to buy an undiscounted ticket and are referring them straight for prosecution?
Now, a cynical person would drop in a reminder that fare revenue isn't passed to the operator but revenue from penalties / prosecutions is, but perhaps that wouldn't be appropriate.

See my post above, by referring it to the prosecutions it allows an opportunity for the passenger to show their railcard later and avoid any cost, this also allows those who tell porky pies about having left their railcard at home when they haven't actually got one to be dealt with robustly.

 

[ale14]

Update: I have just received a letter from GWR about an out of court settlement, asking to pay £90 - but also providing the option to send a copy of my railcard. I have emailed them a copy of my railcard and also an explanation of the situation from my side. I'm just cautious however, that I have been provided with a 19th November 2020 deadline for the out of court settlement payment - what if they don't respond to me by then? The automatic reply from GWR said "Please do not worry about any additional charges, your case is now on hold until we respond to you." But is this applicable for the out of court settlement? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Don't pay the £90 now - but make sure that you keep the email telling you not to worry. It doesn't just tell you not to worry, but also that GWR have received your email.

Most likely, they will get back to you before 19 November, and tell you that there's nothing to worry about. But if it does take them longer, you have proof that they had your information so any delay isn't your fault - and if they withdraw the £90 settlement offer you can point out that a reasonable person ( such as you) would have expected from what they said that all action had been frozen.

 

[ale14]

Don't pay the £90 now - but make sure that you keep the email telling you not to worry. It doesn't just tell you not to worry, but also that GWR have received your email.

Most likely, they will get back to you before 19 November, and tell you that there's nothing to worry about. But if it does take them longer, you have proof that they had your information so any delay isn't your fault - and if they withdraw the £90 settlement offer you can point out that a reasonable person ( such as you) would have expected from what they said that all action had been frozen.

Thank you! Luckily they responded to me today and said they were happy to close my case without any charges

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you! Luckily they responded to me today and said they were happy to close my case without any charges

Good to hear!

 

[Western Sunset]

Good to see common sense prevails. "Sledgehammer" and "crack a nut" spring into my mind.

 

[RPI]

Good to see common sense prevails. "Sledgehammer" and "crack a nut" spring into my mind.

Again this is policy, every person you stop on a train who doesn't have a railcard will say they left it at home, whether they have one or not, this system allows genuine cases to not pay any extra and ones swinging the lead to be prosecuted, win-win unless you're obviously lying.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

Surely it would be better for GWR to ask you send proof of your railcard by a date, and only if you don't then talk about out of court settlements.

 

[RPI]

Surely it would be better for GWR to ask you send proof of your railcard by a date, and only if you don't then talk about out of court settlements.

Thats basically what they do, if you don't mention potential consequences at first then I suspect many wouldn't bother to send in proof of their railcard, requiring further chasing up from an already busy prosecutions department, let's not forget, if you forget your railcard you are technically travelling without a valid ticket whether you have one at home or not.

 

[Haywain]

Thats basically what they do, if you don't mention potential consequences at first then I suspect many wouldn't bother to send in proof of their railcard, requiring further chasing up from an already busy prosecutions department, let's not forget, if you forget your railcard you are technically travelling without a valid ticket whether you have one at home or not.

Plus, it’s not as simple as producing the railcard - that allowance is just once per year so this also means that those who may be repeat offenders are not misled about the consequences.