Help - what paperwork do I need to drive a vintage bus

[Ken H]

I have a full UK driving licence (passed manual gearbox test 1979)
I have these groups:

AM, A, B1, B, C1, D1, BE, C1E, D1E, f, k, l, n, p and q

What else do I need to drive a vintage bus where fares are not collected
Any other certification?

Thanks

 

[Roger1973]

DVLA leaflet INF52 (this seems to be link to current version) is the most official source on this.

It says you can drive the following on class B (car licence)

a bus made more than 30 years before the date it is being driven, and not used for business purposes or for carrying more than 8 passengers

I had understood that driver also needed to be age 21+ but it does not say so there.

Note that all three conditions must apply, not one or two. I'm not quite sure whether a conductor (if it's a bus that needs one) in addition to the 8 passengers would be allowed. I'm not sure there has been a test case, but I don't want to be involved in it.

If you want to carry more passengers, even at a 'running day' type event where it is a genuinely free service and you are not being paid, you still need PCV entitlement (although I understand you don't need to have the driver CPC in those circumstances - this of course may have changed.)

I have seen it quoted on another forum (although the person stating it didn't come up with a source and I have not seen it in writing) that you also need to have D1 entitlement - this (in 'not for hire and reward' form) 'came with the rations' on a car licence up to about the mid 90s, but not since, and it doesn't automatically renew at age 70 unless you do the 'vocational' medical.

Some running day organisers are happy to have '8 seat' buses running, others find them an operational inconvenience and aren't. (it can be a bit awkward for a regulator to have to explain to a long queue that yes, this bus is full with 8 passengers.)

You would of course also have to be acceptable to the vehicle's insurers - some may not be keen on drivers with only car licences, but that's up to them.

Beware of information from random people on the internet / at rallies - the law has changed several times since the early 90s (before that, broadly speaking if the bus wasn't actually being used for hire and reward at that particular time, you were OK on a car licence) and there are people out there who remember bits of the law as it was not as it is.

And disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer or police officer or employee of the DVLA, DVSA or any similar body so my opinions aren't worth any more than anyone else's on the internet.

Also on a personal level, I'd strongly recommend getting some off-road experience and / or tuition from someone experienced (even if not a qualified PCV instructor) before taking a vintage bus on to the public roads.

 

[DustyBin]

DVLA leaflet INF52 (this seems to be link to current version) is the most official source on this.

It says you can drive the following on class B (car licence)



I had understood that driver also needed to be age 21+ but it does not say so there.

I thought this as well, although I’m not sure where I actually got the idea from! Insurance is likely to be the biggest issue (as you’ve mentioned further down in your post).

Note that all three conditions must apply, not one or two. I'm not quite sure whether a conductor (if it's a bus that needs one) in addition to the 8 passengers would be allowed. I'm not sure there has been a test case, but I don't want to be involved in it.

I’d work on the basis that a conductor counts as a passenger for the same reason.

If you want to carry more passengers, even at a 'running day' type event where it is a genuinely free service and you are not being paid, you still need PCV entitlement (although I understand you don't need to have the driver CPC in those circumstances - this of course may have changed.)

I don’t believe you need any CPC in those circumstances, just the license as you say.

I have seen it quoted on another forum (although the person stating it didn't come up with a source and I have not seen it in writing) that you also need to have D1 entitlement - this (in 'not for hire and reward' form) 'came with the rations' on a car licence up to about the mid 90s, but not since, and it doesn't automatically renew at age 70 unless you do the 'vocational' medical.

I’ve never heard of this. I’m not sure what the relevance of D1 entitlement would be to most vintage buses to be honest.

Some running day organisers are happy to have '8 seat' buses running, others find them an operational inconvenience and aren't. (it can be a bit awkward for a regulator to have to explain to a long queue that yes, this bus is full with 8 passengers.)

You would of course also have to be acceptable to the vehicle's insurers - some may not be keen on drivers with only car licences, but that's up to them.

Yes, again it’s worth checking with your insurer.

Beware of information from random people on the internet / at rallies - the law has changed several times since the early 90s (before that, broadly speaking if the bus wasn't actually being used for hire and reward at that particular time, you were OK on a car licence) and there are people out there who remember bits of the law as it was not as it is.

And disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer or police officer or employee of the DVLA, DVSA or any similar body so my opinions aren't worth any more than anyone else's on the internet.

These are good points and I agree. Also, you need to be aware of what constitutes hire and reward as people have fallen foul of this.

Also on a personal level, I'd strongly recommend getting some off-road experience and / or tuition from someone experienced (even if not a qualified PCV instructor) before taking a vintage bus on to the public roads.

Absolutely. Even if you’re used to driving large vehicles, period technology such as non-synchronous transmissions can be a challenge!

 

[Ken H]

Thanks @Dusty_Bin
I hear some have been in trouble for seeking contributions or donations towards running costs. I am going to the Leeds Running Day on Sunday and will try and bung the bus owners a few quid quietly. Not fair i get to ride these vehicles with no contribution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve never heard of this. I’m not sure what the relevance of D1 entitlement would be to most vintage buses to be honest.

D1 doesn't have an upper weight limit so I've heard of people downseating such buses to 16 passenger seats and registering the change with the DVLA so the V5 shows it, but that's barely any better than the 8 you can have on a car licence anyway, and being a modification could cause insurance hassle. It's probably not as bad on a small single decker, though.

 

[richw]

You need to be aware you are limited to 9 people including the driver on board at any time.
The vehicle needs to be over 30 years old and I believe be registered with DVLA as a heritage vehicle to drive it without category D. Heritage vehicle classification also makes it road tax exempt. A friend who lost his D entitlement due to medical reasonings was informed his own preserved bus would need to be registered as a heritage vehicle by the DVLA call centre (I gather that they do sometimes give wrong info. So don’t take this as gospel but I’d suggested clarification) if he wished to drive it on his medically updated licence.

 

[Ken H]

You need to be aware you are limited to 9 people including the driver on board at any time.
The vehicle needs to be over 30 years old and I believe be registered with DVLA as a heritage vehicle to drive it without category D. Heritage vehicle classification also makes it road tax exempt. A friend who lost his D entitlement due to medical reasonings was informed his own preserved bus would need to be registered as a heritage vehicle by the DVLA call centre (I gather that they do sometimes give wrong info. So don’t take this as gospel but I’d suggested clarification) if he wished to drive it on his medically updated licence.

So i need a full D, not a D1.

 

[DustyBin]

D1 doesn't have an upper weight limit so I've heard of people downseating such buses to 16 passenger seats and registering the change with the DVLA so the V5 shows it, but that's barely any better than the 8 you can have on a car licence anyway, and being a modification could cause insurance hassle. It's probably not as bad on a small single decker, though.

I hadn't thought of that to be honest, but it's a very specific situation rather then a general rule in any case.

 

[Roger1973]

The vehicle needs to be over 30 years old and I believe be registered with DVLA as a heritage vehicle to drive it without category D.

I'd not heard of that - the 'historic' tax class is now for vehicles over 40 years old, so there must be vehicles in their 30s that qualify under the historic vehicle exemption in respect of drivers, but not for the historic vehicle tax class.

Heritage vehicle classification also makes it road tax exempt.

a tangent, but possibly worth mentioning - having a vehicle where the excise duty is zero (there are others as well as historic vehicles) does not quite mean it's 'tax exempt' - you still have to go through the process of 'taxing' it every year (even though tax discs have been abolished) or SORN it.

I have heard of people thinking they don't have to do anything and getting in to trouble... (my understanding is the point is that the annual licensing process includes cross checking insurance - and where required - MOT status.)

 

[Busaholic]

The minimum age to drive a bus in the UK was 21 until 1987, when a relaxation was introduced allowing drivers 18 plus on a regular service up to 50 km in length, or when a bus was not in service. The minimum age of 21 had applied since the introduction of the psv licence in 1930. Tha minimum age of 21 still generally applies in all other European countries I believe, though it may only be EU ones.

 

[Titfield]

I have to say that I find the wording in the leaflet referred to by @Roger1973

"a bus made more than 30 years before the date it is being driven, and not used for business purposes or for carrying more than 8 passengers"

specifically the "not used for business purposes" a bit odd which to me is open to interpretation.

I would be very wary of accepting any money or contribution for any journey from a passenger as you may fall foul of the "not for business purposes" or "not for hire or reward"* rule.

You could also inadvertently invalidate your insurance.

May I suggest reading https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ons-including-limousines-and-novelty-vehicles

I have often wondered what the position would be if a person who paid to visit a bus rally was allowed a "free journey" from say the local station to the venue.

If the bus ride was only allowed to those who attended the bus rally (and therefore had paid admission) then to me that would fall foul of the legislation.

 

[Dai Corner]

I have often wondered what the position would be if a person who paid to visit a bus rally was allowed a "free journey" from say the local station to the venue.

If the bus ride was only allowed to those who attended the bus rally (and therefore had paid admission) then to me that would fall foul of the legislation.

Do bus rallies ever charge admission? The Bristol one I attended last Sunday encouraged visitors to buy programmes and accepted donations but didn't charge as such. There were free rides from near the bus and railway stations as well as free parking on site.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have often wondered what the position would be if a person who paid to visit a bus rally was allowed a "free journey" from say the local station to the venue.

If the bus ride was only allowed to those who attended the bus rally (and therefore had paid admission) then to me that would fall foul of the legislation.

I would agree, which is why such bus services are generally totally free and open to anyone who wishes, even if they don't have a ticket to the rally. The bus will drop off outside the entrance gates, where someone can either pay to enter the rally or decline to do so and do something else.

To use another example, this is why all Scout minibus use is considered to require Section 19, because the membership fee paid is considered to be money paid to entitle transport (as a random member of the public can't show up and simply board).

Working around it with "suggested donations" doesn't work either, but I don't see why a simple donation box shouldn't simply be placed there, as one could donate whether one took a journey or not, and there's no pressure to donate nor towards a specific sum if one does.

 

[DustyBin]

I have often wondered what the position would be if a person who paid to visit a bus rally was allowed a "free journey" from say the local station to the venue.

If the bus ride was only allowed to those who attended the bus rally (and therefore had paid admission) then to me that would fall foul of the legislation.

Regardless of whether there's an admission fee, the key issue is whether the owner of the vehicle is being paid to operate the service; that would certainly constitute hire or reward even if the service itself was free. This assumes that the vehicle in question isn't owned by the event organiser of course. Were it to be, and were an admission fee to be charged, I'm fairly confident that would also constitute hire or reward but it's a grey area (test case required!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regardless of whether there's an admission fee, the key issue is whether the owner of the vehicle is being paid to operate the service; that would certainly constitute hire or reward even if the service itself was free. This assumes that the vehicle in question isn't owned by the event organiser of course. Were it to be, and were an admission fee to be charged, I'm fairly confident that would also constitute hire or reward but it's a grey area (test case required!).

Hire = the person or organisation has received money for carriage in any form (including something like a membership fee as per the Scouting example)
Reward = the driver is being paid or is receiving benefits in kind in return for driving

If either applies it's H&R and thus not allowed. Very rarely in Scouting would the "reward" one be tripped as Leaders are volunteers, that one tends to be more often "tripped" in schools when teachers drive minibuses for sports clubs, which is a massive grey area because it's not clear if the teacher is being paid for driving a bus being used by an out of school time sports club or not if they aren't specifically getting overtime for it.

 

[Busaholic]

Do bus rallies ever charge admission?

Yes, most do, though 'running days' aren't included in the description.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes, most do, though 'running days' aren't included in the description.

I don't whether Bristol was a rally, a show or a running day, to be honest!

There were static exhibits as well as free rides.

Apologies for going off topic.

 

[Roger1973]

My understanding of the 'hire and reward' thing is that the bus service needs genuinely to be free / not paid for to class as 'not hire and reward'

If the passenger is obliged to pay for something to be allowed travel on the bus (be that membership, an event programme, an admission charge to a venue or event) then that is 'hire and reward'. Some events can and do run with PSV licensed classic buses and run as a properly registered service (Ensign's usual pre Christmas operation based on Lakeside worked on this basis on the times I've been, with fares being taken on the buses.)

I have encountered events where buses start inside the 'paid for' site and then there's an additional stop outside the gate where passengers may board if there's space available, and passengers all get off outside the gate where admission tickets are sold / checked.

If the event - including any bus journeys - happens wholly within private land, then that's probably a different matter.

Likewise if a passenger travels free but someone else is paying the bus owner / operator to run it, then that's also likely to be 'hire and reward' (in the same way that things like local authority school contracts or 'free' supermarket buses still need to be PSV.)

I also think it would constitute 'hire and reward' to solicit donations on board a 'free' bus - quite a few owners do this at running days, but I think it's dubious.

Ultimately there are some 'grey area' situations that would only be clarified by a test case in court. I'd just prefer not to be involved in any as either an event organiser or bus crew member!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed with @Roger1973's summary. It needs to be free and accessible to anyone who walks up and wishes to ride (unless full, but any queue cannot favour anyone who has paid anything), and the driver or owning company must not receive any remuneration at all.

Alternatively it can be a proper PCV operation.

 

[Titfield]

A PSV used for hire and reward has to have a Class VI (Class 6) MOT.

The operator also has to hold a PSV Operators license and all that entails.

As I alluded to in my previous post "skirting around" what is legal and not legal could put someone in a very difficult position where the financial cost of defending an allegation of illegal operation could be very high but equally the cost of pleading guilty could also have significant consequences.

Whilst slightly Off Topic the authorities in some areas are paying attention to limousines (used for proms and similar work) where the regulations may be infringed.

 

[DustyBin]

Agreed with @Roger1973's summary. It needs to be free and accessible to anyone who walks up and wishes to ride (unless full, but any queue cannot favour anyone who has paid anything), and the driver or owning company must not receive any remuneration at all.

Alternatively it can be a proper PCV operation.

I also agree. The document linked up thread references the following quote from actual case law:

“that the test of whether a vehicle was being used for “hire or reward” was whether there had been a systematic carrying of passengers for reward which went beyond the bounds of mere social kindness”

Statutory document no. 13: PSV operations (including small vehicles, limousines and novelty vehicles)

www.gov.uk

 

[Roger1973]

Whilst slightly Off Topic the authorities in some areas are paying attention to limousines (used for proms and similar work) where the regulations may be infringed.

I am aware that the authorities have paid attention to classic buses / coaches doing 'prom' type events (the ones I have known have been doing it legitimately) - and classic cars for that matter (my understanding is there's an exemption from private hire car licensing that's specific to weddings and funerals, but the law was written in the 1970s when proms - other than the sort at the Albert Hall - didn't exist in the UK.)

I have not been aware of, or heard about, them paying attention to any 'bus running day' events, but it can't be ruled out.

A PSV used for hire and reward has to have a Class VI (Class 6) MOT.

I'm not entirely sure about this - I've not been in a position where I need to know, but I think the historic vehicle MOT exemption (but not the historic vehicle tax 'exemption') applies even if the vehicle is being used in PSV service (needless to say, usual disclaimers apply - check with those in authority if you're thinking of doing it.) Although a vehicle used as a PSV would still need to have regular inspections and maintenance records and so on.

On a personal level, and while realising that an MOT certificate is ultimately only a reflection of the state of the vehicle on that day, I'm not convinced this was a good bit of law, and don't see how running day organisers can reasonably make a judgement whether person C who maintains / inspects bus owner B's bus is suitably qualified and equipped to...

 

[Titfield]

I am aware that the authorities have paid attention to classic buses / coaches doing 'prom' type events (the ones I have known have been doing it legitimately) - and classic cars for that matter (my understanding is there's an exemption from private hire car licensing that's specific to weddings and funerals, but the law was written in the 1970s when proms - other than the sort at the Albert Hall - didn't exist in the UK.)

I have not been aware of, or heard about, them paying attention to any 'bus running day' events, but it can't be ruled out.



I'm not entirely sure about this - I've not been in a position where I need to know, but I think the historic vehicle MOT exemption (but not the historic vehicle tax 'exemption') applies even if the vehicle is being used in PSV service (needless to say, usual disclaimers apply - check with those in authority if you're thinking of doing it.) Although a vehicle used as a PSV would still need to have regular inspections and maintenance records and so on.

On a personal level, and while realising that an MOT certificate is ultimately only a reflection of the state of the vehicle on that day, I'm not convinced this was a good bit of law, and don't see how running day organisers can reasonably make a judgement whether person C who maintains / inspects bus owner B's bus is suitably qualified and equipped to...

I stand to be corrected but I am somewhat amazed that a PSV can be used commercially without an MOT. I think this needs further investigation.

 

[DustyBin]

I stand to be corrected but I am somewhat amazed that a PSV can be used commercially without an MOT. I think this needs further investigation.

If pre-1960 and not substantially altered this is indeed the case.

 

[2192]

Isn't it easier for enthusiasts who want to drive old buses to do the training and apply for a PCV licence?

 

[DustyBin]

Isn't it easier for enthusiasts who want to drive old buses to do the training and apply for a PCV licence?

In what way?

 

[Man of Kent]

The minimum age to drive a bus in the UK was 21 until 1987, when a relaxation was introduced allowing drivers 18 plus on a regular service up to 50 km in length, or when a bus was not in service. The minimum age of 21 had applied since the introduction of the psv licence in 1930. Tha minimum age of 21 still generally applies in all other European countries I believe, though it may only be EU ones.

In the interests of accuracy, the reduction from 21 was introduced by Section 37 of the Transport Act 1980 - all now superseded by other bits of legislation.

 

[Busaholic]

In the interests of accuracy, the reduction from 21 was introduced by Section 37 of the Transport Act 1980 - all now superseded by other bits of legislation.

You appear to be right - I must take less notice of ex-bus drivers who become solicitors 'specialising in transport law' and are prominent on a search engine when you ask a specific question!

 

[Ken H]

Isn't it easier for enthusiasts who want to drive old buses to do the training and apply for a PCV licence?

Except it can cost 2 grand.

 

[jp4712]

If pre-1960 and not substantially altered this is indeed the case.

Couple of small points here…

The exemption from MOT applies if the bus is more than 40 years old and is in the historic vehicle class; not pre-1960. I MOT my buses, I’ve just MOTed my 1968 Bristol, but on a voluntary basis; a lot of bus owners do this.

If you use the exemption, you most certainly can’t use it ‘commercially’ (i.e. hire and reward). The limit on the number of passengers doesn’t apply as that’s a restriction on the driving licence but anyone sensible would surely put their bus through a voluntary test if they were planning to run with seventy people on board. If they didn’t and there was an accident, I can imagine the opposing counsel eating you for breakfast at the ensuing court case.

Anyway, none of this is relevant to the original question which I hope has been answered. The only point I haven’t seen discussed is insurance: it’s true that in theory you can drive a bus from 18, but almost every preserved bus insurance policy I’ve ever seen has lower and upper limits of 25 and 75.

I do strongly recommend to the OP that the they either take lessons, or ask someone who has access to private land to start there. Getting used to the size is the biggest challenge and it’s best to practice somewhere safe before you head towards the high street.