Heysham cancellations

[Bletchleyite]

you would probably ned something which could accommodate 50 to be on the safe side. Through tickets can be bought to the isle of man via Heysham and so leaving people could prove expensive for the railway.

Even though it caught me out once, I think just having it replacing one Lancaster round trip is probably the way to go. I would separate Morecambe from Yorkshire anyway, so it would be a simple "half hourly except this one" and wholly marginal in terms of costs.

 

[zwk500]

Even though it caught me out once, I think just having it replacing one Lancaster round trip is probably the way to go. I would separate Morecambe from Yorkshire anyway, so it would be a simple "half hourly except this one" and wholly marginal in terms of costs.

Although the unit currently can't make it to Heysham and back before the next departure to Lancaster so it delays an up service from Morecambe. Not sure what the pre cov9d situation was.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although the unit currently can't make it to Heysham and back before the next departure to Lancaster so it delays an up service from Morecambe. Not sure what the pre cov9d situation was.

Edit: Ah, I see, it's 15 minutes each way, but 10 to Lancaster. That would make it awkward. Wonder if there's any scope to get say two minutes off it? Needs an SBB style eye casting over it - linespeed improvements are worth money if they allow Takt.

Edit edit: 4 minutes to operate the ground frame. That's your fix there.

 

[zwk500]

For a bit of context, Google Maps gives a drive time from Lancaster station to the Ferry Port of 14 minutes, so allow 20 minutes for a coach and some traffic.
Driving from Morecambe station to Heysham ferry port is given as 11 minutes, so allow 15 for a bus of some kind.
The train takes 28 minutes from Lancaster and 15 minutes from Morecambe to Heysham Harbour.

Edit: Ah, I see, it's 15 minutes each way, but 10 to Lancaster. That would make it awkward. Wonder if there's any scope to get say two minutes off it? Needs an SBB style eye casting over it - linespeed improvements are worth money if they allow Takt.

Edit edit: 4 minutes to operate the ground frame. That's your fix there.

What would save time and is very achievable would be to resignal/remodel the line to remove the need for the ground frame operation in passenger service (it would still be needed for the runrounds). But this is very much into speculation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair the Bay Gateway has changed the viability of coach operation for this. Before that opened, which wasn't *all that* long ago, it could easily have taken an hour to crawl along busy roads to get there.

I'm not vehemently opposed to coach operation provided it was fully rail-integrated in terms of fares and timetable (or simply free of charge). But as long as the line is there it might as well be used.

 

[zwk500]

To be fair the Bay Gateway has changed the viability of coach operation for this. Before that opened, which wasn't *all that* long ago, it could easily have taken an hour to crawl along busy roads to get there.

A very fair point. But it's there now so why not reassess the viability of each operation.

I'm not vehemently opposed to coach operation provided it was fully rail-integrated in terms of fares and timetable (or simply free of charge).

100% with you on this. It should be advertised on the same basis as the Heathrow coach link, and fares available on the same basis as the Luton Airport-Parkway shuttle.

But as long as the line is there it might as well be used.

There is a difference in cost in maintaining a line for freight operation only that is not always immediately visible. Especially if abolishing the passenger service to Heysham permits rationalisation of the Morecambe-Lancaster section and Morecambe station layout. Currently the line is 40mph for the run between the two ground frames. Drop that to 30 mph and freight only and you may well drop it down a maintenance category, enabling a saving on staff and resource.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you could easily sell that by dedicating and branding a unit to Lancaster-Morecambe and replacing the present hotch-potch with a half hourly clockface service, so you're "cutting to improve". Probably also rebuild Morecambe station as it's grim. "The Bay Metro" branding would be quite good, I reckon. Then do Heysham by bus. Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire are I believe fairly good for cheap tenders.

 

[Ken H]

I think you could easily sell that by dedicating and branding a unit to Lancaster-Morecambe and replacing the present hotch-potch with a half hourly clockface service, so you're "cutting to improve". Probably also rebuild Morecambe station as it's grim. "The Bay Metro" branding would be quite good, I reckon. Then do Heysham by bus. Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire are I believe fairly good for cheap tenders.

Bit busy now! Just got the lancaster - kirkby Lonsdale routes off Stagecoach

 

[childwallblues]

I think you could easily sell that by dedicating and branding a unit to Lancaster-Morecambe and replacing the present hotch-potch with a half hourly clockface service, so you're "cutting to improve". Probably also rebuild Morecambe station as it's grim. "The Bay Metro" branding would be quite good, I reckon. Then do Heysham by bus. Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire are I believe fairly good for cheap tenders.

Well they are going to have to do some improvements if they are are going to build the Eden Project North on the promenade.

 

[johntea]

Is the (obviously closed down for quite a while now!) Blockbuster Video still literally the first thing you see after stepping off the train at Morecambe or has the building been sold now? That was always quite an odd sight!

My problem with visiting the Morecambe area is every time I see it on ITV there seems to have been a murder there

 

[driver9000]

Is the (obviously closed down for quite a while now!) Blockbuster Video still literally the first thing you see after stepping off the train at Morecambe or has the building been sold now? That was always quite an odd sight!

My problem with visiting the Morecambe area is every time I see it on ITV there seems to have been a murder there

The former Blockbusters is now a Domino's pizza takeaway and gym. Frankie and Benny's on the same car park has closed and is slowly falling into disrepair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The former Blockbusters is now a Domino's pizza takeaway and gym. Frankie and Benny's on the same car park has closed and is slowly falling into disrepair.

With Eden Project coming (very near the station) there's a great opportunity to redevelop it into something a bit less, er, rubbish, as a nice gateway to the town.

 

[Pinus contorta]

To be fair the Bay Gateway has changed the viability of coach operation for this. Before that opened, which wasn't *all that* long ago, it could easily have taken an hour to crawl along busy roads to get there.

I'm not vehemently opposed to coach operation provided it was fully rail-integrated in terms of fares and timetable (or simply free of charge). But as long as the line is there it might as well be used.

The road round the city centre to get to the railway station is still a traffic hot spot, despite the road improvements. I am not sure if the Heysham coach could use some of the bus lanes round Lancaster to ease its passage or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The road round the city centre to get to the railway station is still a traffic hot spot, despite the road improvements.

There's a grand plan to change it all round, though really it'll take an additional Lune bridge to properly sort it out.

I am not sure if the Heysham coach could use some of the bus lanes round Lancaster to ease its passage or not.

Generally bus lanes allow any vehicle with 10 or more seats total, so yes, they could. Only the ones with the word "local" on the bus pictogram are restricted to registered local bus services. That said, as this is quite a short route it would be a registered local bus service anyway - why would you not claim the BSOG*?

* Bus Service Operator's Grant, or what used to be called fuel-duty rebate.

 

[Pinus contorta]

There's a grand plan to change it all round, though really it'll take an additional Lune bridge to properly sort it out.



Generally bus lanes allow any vehicle with 10 or more seats total, so yes, they could. Only the ones with the word "local" on the bus pictogram are restricted to registered local bus services. That said, as this is quite a short route it would be a registered local bus service anyway - why would you not claim the BSOG*?

* Bus Service Operator's Grant, or what used to be called fuel-duty rebate.

I explained it badly. I meant the bus lanes are partly set out to ease the passage to / from the bus station without going round the whole of the one way system that orbits the city centre. Crossing the Lune and getting to or from the railway is not what they were primarlly intended for. Although they might help.

 

[30907]

I don't know the normal service, but from RTT it looks like the run to Heysham and back delays the return departure from Morecambe. So you'd be able to provide a more regular clock-face timetable if you got rid of the passenger service.

The round trip from Lancaster takes exactly an hour instead of 25min, so yes, if you could make the paths work, you could run an extra train.

It's not in marginal time, it shifts the paths back to Leeds around.

Only on a Sunday. The Leeds-Morecambe service is separate on weekdays.

 

[Ken H]

So whats being suggested is binning the Morecambe - Heysham trains service and running a dedicated rail replacement from Lancaster to Heysham, non stop. Morecambe people could get a train to Lancaster and change, or use a local bus if there is one.
Sort of makes sense. Trains are for moving large numbers of people, not a few.
I would say the bus needs to be a coach so there is room for bulky items, pushchairs etc. And the driver would need to check for valid tickets, and sell single Heysham - Lancaster tickets. If anyone needs anything else they excess it at lancaster.
Of course the full range of fares to/from National Rail stations to Heysham & IOM would still be available.

 

[Watershed]

The Lancaster-Morecambe service is about as un-clockface as you can get. There is absolutely no consistency whatsoever in the departure times in either direction. The WCML paths are set first and then the Morecambe services are pathed around the remaining gaps, in such a way as to get as many trips out of 1 unit as possible (with a few gaps to allow for crew breaks).

The Morecambe line is a case study amongst lines run in the way that's most operationally convenient.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Lancaster-Morecambe service is about as un-clockface as you can get. There is absolutely no consistency whatsoever in the departure times in either direction. The WCML paths are set first and then the Morecambe services are pathed around the remaining gaps, in such a way as to get as many trips out of 1 unit as possible (with a few gaps to allow for crew breaks).

The Morecambe line is a case study amongst lines run in the way that's most operationally convenient.

Yet the WCML is pretty much fully clockface. So why do non-clockface paths work for Morecambe?

It's a 10 minute running time, so one unit should be able to manage half-hourly (just), particularly if you used a 2-car 195 so it could accelerate quickly on the WCML and run at 100mph on that stretch, thus probably getting it down to maybe 8 minutes. You'd have to be willing to cancel a round trip to bring it back on time if it ended up late, though. Might even be worth timetabling in some such gaps at very quiet times of day, ideally consistently so you know that (for random example) xx00 from Lancaster and xx15 from Morecambe runs all day, but you perhaps drop 1030/1045, 1330/1345 and 1630/45 to keep it on time. This could even be done without a gap in actual service if the Yorkshire service slotted into those gaps.

 

[Watershed]

Yet the WCML is pretty much fully clockface. So why do non-clockface paths work for Morecambe?

It's a 10 minute running time, so one unit should be able to manage half-hourly (just), particularly if you used a 2-car 195 so it could accelerate quickly on the WCML and run at 100mph on that stretch. You'd have to be willing to cancel a round trip to bring it back on time if it ended up late, though. Might even be worth timetabling in some such gaps at very quiet times of day, ideally consistently so you know that (for random example) xx00 from Lancaster and xx15 from Morecambe runs all day.

The problem is that for one unit to do a half-hourly service, you only have a 5 minute turn around at each end, and you can't have any pathing en-route.

Both of which are fine in principle - but the concept breaks down completely when you realise that there aren't gaps on the WCML that fit in with such a service.

You've particularly got to bear in mind that you have a conflict with north and southbound traffic, on arriving or departing Lancaster, and/or crossing Morecambe South Jn.

With a 4 minute headway, plus adjustment time to slow down or speed up at Morecambe South, you can see that it's an absolute nightmare to path.

Really what's needed is for the Morecambe branch to have its own bidirectional single line into Lancaster - it would then be completely independent of the WCML and neither would be constrained by the other. Unfortunately the River Lune rather puts paid to that idea!

 

[43301]

I think I know the answer, but it's long surprised me that guards don't conduct RRBs, both for revenue and to ensure they don't get lost, miss out stations etc.

How difficult can it be to use a satnav designed for large vehicles and program a route including all the stations? OK, Satnavs aren't infallible, but should be adequate in most cases.

 

[Gems]

Absolutely no reason why Skipton based crews couldn't have signed this route other than for financial reasons. Every single one of us has route conducted or been route conducted at some point.
Fascinating route. I love that foot crossing on the curve out of Morecambe. The yocals were so used to not seeing trains they just ignored trains when they appeared. Get's a bit hairy though when the local chavs play train dodge with a secondhand buggy with wonky wheels. Even known of a couple of guys walking down the track with a shotgun hunting local rabbits.

The ferryport building at Heysham is quite tidy, but the prices for a cup of tea brings tears to your eyes.

 

[yorksrob]

If like to put it on record that I think the idea for closing the Heysham line to passengers is a terrible one and I'm against it.

 

[zwk500]

If like to put it on record that I think the idea for closing the Heysham line to passengers is a terrible one and I'm against it.

Well there's a shocker.

 

[dk1]

If like to put it on record that I think the idea for closing the Heysham line to passengers is a terrible one and I'm against it.

It all good as there are no plans to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It all good as there are no plans to do so.

If Heysham nuclear power station closes I could see it closing, but provided that remains open then I can't see it. As 7 new nuclear stations have been announced, and building them on the existing sites is going to involve less NIMBY friction, that's years off.

 

[yorksrob]

Well there's a shocker.

To paraphrase Elaine Paige and Barbra Dickson, you know me so well !

If Heysham nuclear power station closes I could see it closing, but provided that remains open then I can't see it. As 7 new nuclear stations have been announced, and building them on the existing sites is going to involve less NIMBY friction, that's years off.

That's good news.

I do think that more could be made of the route, for example, having a connection to both of the daily ferries.

 

[dk1]

If Heysham nuclear power station closes I could see it closing, but provided that remains open then I can't see it. As 7 new nuclear stations have been announced, and building them on the existing sites is going to involve less NIMBY friction, that's years off.

Would hopefully be heaps of opposition to closure regardless of how poorly used it is. In my neck of the words I’m eagerly awaiting a decision on the construction of Sizewell C which will bring plenty of jobs & some freight variety to the East Suffolk Line.

 

[driver9000]

If Heysham nuclear power station closes I could see it closing, but provided that remains open then I can't see it. As 7 new nuclear stations have been announced, and building them on the existing sites is going to involve less NIMBY friction, that's years off.

They're both due to stop producing electricity in the next few years but there will be work for many years to come decommissioning the site and taking fuels to Sellafield so hopefully the rail traffic isn't under threat just yet.

 

[6Z09]

Was bus replacement last August