Holborn and the Aldwych Branch

[thesignalman]

I think it could be a very good museum and event space, actually. There's a lot of interesting original features, plus things like trial finishes and fittings on the platform that was abandoned early, so those things would be of interest to a lot of people.

You could deck out part of it as an air raid shelter too, and tell that part of the station's story.

There's also quite a lot of space that could be hired out for special events and shows etc, and I'm sure you could charge quite a lot for that sort of use.

To be realistic, it could only be a museum (or used for other purposes) at street level. That is what I visualised when I wrote earlier.

Access to platform level only by stairs would be unacceptable by modern standards. And the lifts, however much they are an important museum piece, are not practical to make operational.

John

 

[Vespa]

It still wouldn't be viable, even if that wasn't a factor.

I think it could be a very good museum and event space, actually. There's a lot of interesting original features, plus things like trial finishes and fittings on the platform that was abandoned early, so those things would be of interest to a lot of people.

You could deck out part of it as an air raid shelter too, and tell that part of the station's story.

There's also quite a lot of space that could be hired out for special events and shows etc, and I'm sure you could charge quite a lot for that sort of use.

You can already visit it as part of an organised heritage tour, as the only access is by a long spiral staircase, it's not disabled friendly because the lift is out of service.

If it's opened to general admission, adaptions would have to be undertaken to bring up to museum standards.

 

[LAX54]

For me this was the only interesting part of Superman IV. Film was made on the stringiest of shoestring budgets. No way could they have afforded to film subway scenes in NYC.

Holborn is a lot closer to Pinewood than NYC lol

 

[birchesgreen]

You can already visit it as part of an organised heritage tour, as the only access is by a long spiral staircase, it's not disabled friendly because the lift is out of service.

If it's opened to general admission, adaptions would have to be undertaken to bring up to museum standards.

Yes having been on one of tours i can tell you its a lot of steps down and a LOT of steps back up

 

[Ashley Hill]

Having watched the repeat of the SOTU Aldwych episode I was wondering,if the Holborn expansion ever happened,would LU ever consider a weeks running in the lead up to the line being forever severed?

 

[urbophile]

To be realistic, it could only be a museum (or used for other purposes) at street level. That is what I visualised when I wrote earlier.

Access to platform level only by stairs would be unacceptable by modern standards. And the lifts, however much they are an important museum piece, are not practical to make operational.

John

Just wondering if it would be possible to preserve one of the original lifts (unoperational) and install a new one in the adjoining shaft?

 

[Vespa]

Just wondering if it would be possible to preserve one of the original lifts (unoperational) and install a new one in the adjoining shaft?

Not financially viable for the numbers that used the station before 1994 and it's short line, now highly unlikely as the lifts are historical monuments in their own right.

I rode the line before it closed down and I remember the lift being quite creeky and it rattled all the way up, you're always thinking it might drop at any time.

 

[Journeyman]

Just wondering if it would be possible to preserve one of the original lifts (unoperational) and install a new one in the adjoining shaft?

It's completely possible, if you have a lot of money.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Just wondering if it would be possible to preserve one of the original lifts (unoperational) and install a new one in the adjoining shaft?

There is only one lift shaft and the two original Otis lifts fit back to back within it, each forming a half hexagon shape.

 

[Journeyman]

There is only one lift shaft and the two original Otis lifts fit back to back within it, each forming a half hexagon shape.

There's actually several shafts - I think there's three - but only one ever had lifts in it.

 

[thedbdiboy]

There's actually several shafts - I think there's three - but only one ever had lifts in it.

One operational lift shaft. The others were unfinished

 

[Busaholic]

One operational lift shaft. The others were unfinished

Let's face it, even if Elon Musk acquired the branch, the lift would never operate again nor new lifts be put into place, given their unavailability. The HSE would never allow it!

 

[bramling]

Let's face it, even if Elon Musk acquired the branch, the lift would never operate again nor new lifts be put into place, given their unavailability. The HSE would never allow it!

Reopening Aldwych would certainly be difficult, if (as seems likely) everything would have to meet modern standards. Step-free access to the platforms would be required for start, plus at least one secondary means of escape. I suppose it might just about be possible to use the second of the two tunnels as an escape route via Holborn, but I'm not sure that would be deemed adequate. That's before getting all fixtures and fittings up to scratch.

I'm sure it would be viable to make some use of the site for the museum, but again deep pockets required.

Having said all that, Crossrail seem to have been able to make a case to say that the Connaught Tunnel is a continued use of legacy infrastructure, so who knows. Like most things it's a case of who is prepared to put their signature to a document which certifies something as safe.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Having watched the repeat of the SOTU Aldwych episode I was wondering,if the Holborn expansion ever happened,would LU ever consider a weeks running in the lead up to the line being forever severed?

So no thoughts on a weeks running prior to possible severing then. I know it's just an off the cuff thought but is it that impossible?

 

[bramling]

So no thoughts on a weeks running prior to possible severing then. I know it's just an off the cuff thought but is it that impossible?

Before Covid, something was being considered, but I've no idea how far up the drawing board it got. I suspect that it's something Covid will have well and truly put a stop to, as some of the players behind this have I think moved on now.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility, but I wouldn't hold your breath. It wouldn't be a week of service running, as numbers at Aldwych would have to be controlled due to the issues if an evacuation were necessary. But you could in theory have an out and back trip for a set number of people.

If anything did happen I imagine it would be the 38 stock used, not the 72 stock. With current financial pressures, how long the 72 stock survives is another question. I've always hoped to see that unit preserved, as it's by all account in a half decent condition with good spares availability, and represents the "silver" era very well. Apart from the sandite 62 stocks, there is nothing else operational from that era.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Well perhaps ticket holders only booked similarly to the Hidden tours. Given the popularity of those tours a final fling on the branch must surely be financially worth while.

 

[bramling]

Well perhaps ticket holders only booked similarly to the Hidden tours. Given the popularity of those tours a final fling on the branch must surely be financially worth while.

Depends on the cost of setting it all up. If there's someone who is prepared to spent a vast amount of their own time writing up a safety plan for it, and by the end of the process is happy to put their signature on the dotted line to say it's safe, then it would be potentially viable. There's still the headache of staffing it though.

It's the sort of thing which would need some suitably qualified staff to do on a largely goodwill basis. Whether that resource exists I wouldn't like to say, but it's probably less likely to exist now than a few years ago.

One thing in its favour is its unlikely to represent too much of a risk to the rest of LU's operations. Lest we forget the debacle with the 1960 stock shoegear after the Ongar event, which unfortunately dented heritage's image on LU. I'm open to correction, however my recollection is that event was largely supported by Peter Hendy, who is gone now.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Depends on the cost of setting it all up. If there's someone who is prepared to spent a vast amount of their own time writing up a safety plan for it, and by the end of the process is happy to put their signature on the dotted line to say it's safe, then it would be potentially viable. There's still the headache of staffing it though.

It's the sort of thing which would need some suitably qualified staff to do on a largely goodwill basis. Whether that resource exists I wouldn't like to say, but it's probably less likely to exist now than a few years ago.

There's generally some cranks within the industry who would staff it. If I worked for LU my name would be on the list.

 

[matt_world2004]

There's generally some cranks within the industry who would staff it. If I worked for LU my name would be on the list.

Would you be really willing to volunteer a considerable amount of your time to such a project for your employer if your employer was about to make your pension significantly worse.

My department can't get people to volunteer for paid overtime at the moment let alone unpaid overtime

 

[Vespa]

.
Lest we forget the debacle with the 1960 stock shoegear after the Ongar event, which unfortunately dented heritage's image on LU. I'm open to correction, however my recollection is that event was largely supported by Peter Hendy, who is gone now.

What happened in this shoe gear incident ?

 

[bramling]

What happened in this shoe gear incident ?

I forget the specifics, however the 1960 stock was returning from Ongar, and dislodged some current rail in the Tottenham Court Road area, which caused severe disruption to the day’s Central Line service.

I think it boiled down to an assumption having been made that the 60 stock had the correct shoegear for the Central Line, when it turned out it didn’t. To add some interest, the 60 stock had worked through the Central Line tunnels a few times prior without incident, not least during the centennial overnight railtour in 2000.

The incident wasn’t really due to heritage per se, but more simply due to a lack of understanding of the rolling stock characteristics. But unfortunately it did a lot of image damage.

Unfortunately it hasn’t been the only high-profile incident in recent times either. There was a high-profile SPAD involving a steam train on the west end of the District Line some years ago too, where again some issues came to light in terms of the working practices.

None of this should be a showstopper, but it all contributes to wrapping heritage operations firmly within the “too difficult” box, sadly.

 

[Snow1964]

Does anyone know how far the end of Jubilee tunnels are from Aldwych Station. I remember reading somewhere that they continued from Charing Cross virtually to Aldwych. Long enough for overruns and a train to be stabled in each tunnel east of Charing Cross.

Would make a great museum if it could be connected up, even if it was just a walking route with items displayed along the tunnel.

 

[bramling]

Does anyone know how far the end of Jubilee tunnels are from Aldwych Station. I remember reading somewhere that they continued from Charing Cross virtually to Aldwych. Long enough for overruns and a train to be stabled in each tunnel east of Charing Cross.

Would make a great museum if it could be connected up, even if it was just a walking route with items displayed along the tunnel.

The tunnels finish roughly at Lancaster Place, which is a couple of hundred yards short of Aldwych. Both these tunnels are essentially still operational - the siding berths end at fixed red lamps then the tunnels continue a further couple of hundred yards to end walls.

Whilst it’s a nice idea, I can’t see it being viable while the Jubilee Line still use Charing Cross, and given the lack of other sidings / reversing facilities in the area I can’t see the Jubilee wanting to give it up.

It’s a sobering thought that the Jubilee parts of Charing Cross have now been closed to passengers for as long as they were open.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Does anyone know how far the end of Jubilee tunnels are from Aldwych Station. I remember reading somewhere that they continued from Charing Cross virtually to Aldwych. Long enough for overruns and a train to be stabled in each tunnel east of Charing Cross.

Would make a great museum if it could be connected up, even if it was just a walking route with items displayed along the tunnel.

I worked out the location exactly using Carto Metro once, but I think they finish pretty much just before the main crossroads with Strand, Waterloo Bridge and Kingsway

 

[simple simon]

Maybe the branch should be extended; north to the new developments north of Kings Cross (instead of reopening York Road) via Euston St Pancras International (for HS2) and Clerkenwell - an area that has no railways beyond the Museum Rail Mail - and south to Waterloo and Victoria, creating a link between these two mainline stations that is missing from London's railways.

At Waterloo a non-passenger link with the Waterloo & City should be included, for stock transfers. Both W&C and the extended Aldwych branch could use shorter versions of the same trains as the Piccadilly line. Basic maintenance would have to be carried out at Waterloo and a new facility at Kings Cross, heavy maintenance at Cockfosters or even Acton.

As for Aldwych and Charing Cross stations, what happened to the extension of the DLR from Bank to the disused platforms at Charing Cross via Aldwych?

 

[Busaholic]

As for Aldwych and Charing Cross stations, what happened to the extension of the DLR from Bank to the disused platforms at Charing Cross via Aldwych?

I could hardly believe when I read in 'Modern Railways' that it was seriously being considered: thought it had as much chance as the Northern going to Battersea Power Station! Still consider it would be an incredibly wasteful use of non-existent resources to achieve exactly what? It wasn't one of Bojo's 'brainwaves' by any chance?

 

[edwin_m]

I could hardly believe when I read in 'Modern Railways' that it was seriously being considered: thought it had as much chance as the Northern going to Battersea Power Station! Still consider it would be an incredibly wasteful use of non-existent resources to achieve exactly what? It wasn't one of Bojo's 'brainwaves' by any chance?

Strikes me as a classic case of a solution in need of a problem.

 

[BayPaul]

Maybe the branch should be extended; north to the new developments north of Kings Cross (instead of reopening York Road) via Euston St Pancras International (for HS2) and Clerkenwell - an area that has no railways beyond the Museum Rail Mail - and south to Waterloo and Victoria, creating a link between these two mainline stations that is missing from London's railways.

At Waterloo a non-passenger link with the Waterloo & City should be included, for stock transfers. Both W&C and the extended Aldwych branch could use shorter versions of the same trains as the Piccadilly line. Basic maintenance would have to be carried out at Waterloo and a new facility at Kings Cross, heavy maintenance at Cockfosters or even Acton.

Is there a desperate need for a link between Waterloo and Victoria? Almost all connections between trains serving them can be made by changing at Clapham Junction, or using Waterloo East anyway. Running short underground trains across central London sounds like a really bad idea, and I don't think there is much space for a new tunnel under Euston / St Pancras. If you were building a new Waterloo - King's Cross line, I suspect it would be a lot cheaper and simpler to not try to reuse the Aldwych branch, given that you'd need to completely rebuild both stations on it anyway.

 

[Busaholic]

Is there a desperate need for a link between Waterloo and Victoria? Almost all connections between trains serving them can be made by changing at Clapham Junction, or using Waterloo East anyway. Running short underground trains across central London sounds like a really bad idea, and I don't think there is much space for a new tunnel under Euston / St Pancras. If you were building a new Waterloo - King's Cross line, I suspect it would be a lot cheaper and simpler to not try to reuse the Aldwych branch, given that you'd need to completely rebuild both stations on it anyway.

If a direct line between Waterloo and Kings Cross were ever to be created, I wouldn't expect Aldwych or Holborn (Kingsway) to be on the routeing - Clerkenwell far more likely, possibly even Farringdon.

 

[kwrail]

The Aldwych branch was just a legacy of the way that the Piccadilly Line was stitched together from the Great Northern & Strand Railway and the Brompton & Piccadilly Circus Railway back in 1906/07. Once the two lines were joined at Holborn the branch was essentially redundant. As a previous poster said, reusing the branch is a solution looking for a problem. TFL is a bit short of cash at the moment, but if it had any extending the Bakerloo line South east would be a much higher priority.

My guess is that Aldwych will carry on being used by film companies and for station tours. Although once the branch is severed at Holborn, then any unit on the branch will be stranded.