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Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

Killingworth

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All has gone very quiet since the TWAO was confirmed; https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/network-rail-hope-valley-capacity-order

It came into force on the 18th April; http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/446/made After a public announcement by Network Rail that work should start in 2019 nothing has been heard. At that time 3 years was suggested for construction, more than twice as long as the timetable set out in the evidence submitted to the public inquiry.

The DfT seems to have buried the public inquiry into Platforms 15 and 16 at Piccadilly. That would give some help to East Midlands' Liverpool - Norwich service down the valley which is now so unreliable that many are giving up using it, the average delay at present being over 10 minutes, and some by almost an hour. That's on a journey timed at 50 minutes for 45 miles!

However the new freight passing loops at Dore and Bamford, plus the redoubling of the tracks through Dore & Totley station, should improve reliabilty and ensure more trains from the Sheffield direction can arrive into the Manchester area as planned. If delivered.

Is the lack of Platforms 15 and 16 now a constraint on the plan to add another fast service on this route? Is the Hope Valley scheme now being quietly deferred because 15 and 16 are blocked, that extra path another straw on the camel's back?

In the original Manchester Hub planning it was envisaged that the new train would go to Liverpool or Preston. Chester or Blackpool have also been suggested. At one stage it was being suggested that there should be two extra fast trains an hour. They'd never fit in at present.

If the grand plan has now been scuppered by platform 13 and 14 congestion across Manchester, improvements in the reliabilty of the current TP Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport, EM Liverpool - Norwich and Northern Piccadilly - Sheffield services are still essential. TP are operating more 6 car trains. Longer trains seem to be the answer to lack of route capacity for all 3 operators

By completing the Hope Valley scheme Northern's hourly service should be able to call at all stations. At present there are weird gaps as the trains skip along to avoid blocking freight paths - that are often not used. 2 hours 33 minutes out of Sheffield to Dore & Totley in an evening. It's quicker to walk the 4 miles. Many get a bus, taxi or are picked up in Sheffield, but it's possible to go out to Grindleford and come back before the next direct train!

Completing the loops will also allow those freight trains being fed in and out of the national network to follow more closely their planned paths, helping to save delays elsewhere across the nation. The Peak District quarries are increasingly busy as more stone and cement is being used on building projects in the south, exported - and in winter going to coal fired power stations. This means more of the scheduled paths are being taken up.

The East Midlands refranchising tender says Liverpool - Norwich will be split at Nottingham from December 2021, with the Liverpool - Nottingham section awarded to either Northern or TP. Or kept with East Midlands!

Local users in the Hope Valley are hoping the 2019 start date might allow the scheme to be completed in time for that December 2021 EM transfer date. I should imagine EM crews must dread being allocated to that service at present!

A few pictures. Empty freight trains go quickly, but the loaded train heading into Totley Tunnel delayed an EM service for 7 minutes before it had cleared the Dore junctions to go south.

Grindleford station is long enough to take at least 6 cars, although only half that is used today. There would be room on both sides of the tracks there to put in short loops to hold a slow stopping train and allow a fast to go past. Two rusting loop/sidings are still there, disconnected on the north side and a live siding facing west for engineering use to the south.

Dore & Totley used to have 4 platforms, all long enough to take 6 cars - until 3 were demolished and the last reduced to 4 car length in 1985 when the line was singled for 2/3 mile through the station!

Where the line should be redoubled south of Dore station has seen recent work and hopes were raised that this was preparation for that. It seems not as the completed drainage work appears to be just where the old track used to be until lifted in 1985.
There's a temperature gauge attached to the track in this picture. A Network Rail employee has been stationed here nearly every day for the last month to ensure the track hasn't buckled in the heat; a speed restriction has been imposed at hottest times.

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yorksrob

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I have a lot of sympathy that improvements aren't forthcoming on the route as it is one that I find very useful. Certainly double track through Dore needs to happen.

That said, I do believe that some of the increasing stone traffic should help to make a case to re-instate the main line to Derby through Bakewell.
 

snowball

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Before the announcement of the outcome of the Hope Valley T&W application, I think it was already known that there would be no construction work on it before CP6. I expect it to start early in CP6 but the DfT seems determined to remain secretive about the status of enhancement schemes in the England & Wales CP6 pipeline.
 

Class 170101

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Could you not send the extra path to Liverpool via Stockport, Denton and Manchester Victoria thus avoiding the bottleneck that is Piccadilly?

EDIT or via Bredbury and Phillips Park Route?
 

Killingworth

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The singling of the line at Dore just seemed to happen. I recall no consultation. About the same time stone and cement traffic began to grow, and the stopping services that used to turn back at New Mills with a change needed for Piccadilly started to be run though from the western end. Passenger growth has been very strong, especally now so many TP and EM trains stop at Dore & Totley at commuting times - to go to the 40 mile to Manchester.

Anecdotally it's said Railtrack were making plans to redouble when they took over from BR. It probably took less time to plan and build the entire Dore & Chinley railway, including two long tunnels, back in the 1880/90s. It's on the record that Network Rail have been hatching detailed plans since at least 2005; https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=IJO6SVNYKB000
 

yorksrob

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Alas, there was no consultation required in those days. If closure of the station had been proposed, the TUCC's would have been involved, but even then they could only object in terms of "hardship".
 
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Intercity 225

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Could you not send the extra path to Liverpool via Stockport, Denton and Manchester Victoria thus avoiding the bottleneck that is Piccadilly?

EDIT or via Bredbury and Phillips Park Route?

No idea on the feasibility but an interesting concept and I personally would find this service very useful considering I live very close to Manchester Victoria.
 

edwin_m

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Could you not send the extra path to Liverpool via Stockport, Denton and Manchester Victoria thus avoiding the bottleneck that is Piccadilly?

EDIT or via Bredbury and Phillips Park Route?
Sending trains via Denton is very difficult. In particular northbounds have to do a right turn at Heaton Norris across both Up tracks, so if things aren't running to course the signaller has the choice of stopping trains on one or both Up tracks or delaying whatever Down train is stuck behind. Bredbury and Philips Park doesn't have this sort of problem but the approach to Victoria by that route must be far slower than getting into Piccadilly.
 

Chester1

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No idea on the feasibility but an interesting concept and I personally would find this service very useful considering I live very close to Manchester Victoria.

As a resident of Stockport there is definitely a market for at least 1tph going to Victoria via Denton and Slade Lane is more of a bottle neck so a path could be found. One option to relieve Piccadilly could be for a platform 5 to be built at Stockport with platforms 0 and 1 for services to / Victoria and 2-5 for services to / from Piccadilly, with twin tracks in and out of the station paired accordingly. Perhaps 4tph+12tph assuming the line was redoubled.
 

Senex

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Sending trains via Denton is very difficult. In particular northbounds have to do a right turn at Heaton Norris across both Up tracks, so if things aren't running to course the signaller has the choice of stopping trains on one or both Up tracks or delaying whatever Down train is stuck behind. Bredbury and Philips Park doesn't have this sort of problem but the approach to Victoria by that route must be far slower than getting into Piccadilly.
The chance of creating a genuinely fast route that way, was lost when the branch to Droylsden Jn was abandoned, quite apart from the pathing problems you mention and the single-track section on the Heaton Norris & Guide Bridge line.
 

edwin_m

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As a resident of Stockport there is definitely a market for at least 1tph going to Victoria via Denton and Slade Lane is more of a bottle neck so a path could be found. One option to relieve Piccadilly could be for a platform 5 to be built at Stockport with platforms 0 and 1 for services to / Victoria and 2-5 for services to / from Piccadilly, with twin tracks in and out of the station paired accordingly. Perhaps 4tph+12tph assuming the line was redoubled.
Stockport is already a capacity pinch point. How do you propose to run most of the existing Piccadilly service on two tracks?
 

B&I

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As a resident of Stockport there is definitely a market for at least 1tph going to Victoria via Denton and Slade Lane is more of a bottle neck so a path could be found. One option to relieve Piccadilly could be for a platform 5 to be built at Stockport with platforms 0 and 1 for services to / Victoria and 2-5 for services to / from Piccadilly, with twin tracks in and out of the station paired accordingly. Perhaps 4tph+12tph assuming the line was redoubled.


That could be a handy local service for that part of Manchester / Stockport / Tameside, but wouldn't half be a drag for anything longer-distance
 

Ianno87

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Stockport is already a capacity pinch point. How do you propose to run most of the existing Piccadilly service on two tracks?

Exactly what I was thinking - the current off peak Piccadilly service is already c. 14tph.
 

Chester1

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Stockport is already a capacity pinch point. How do you propose to run most of the existing Piccadilly service on two tracks?

Exactly what I was thinking - the current off peak Piccadilly service is already c. 14tph.

Its a pinch point but not the pinch point (which is Slade Lane Junction at 22tph). There are two alternative routes into Manchester, via Denton and via Bredbury. Neither is fast but one has to be chosen for extra services on the Hope Valley line or services have to be diverted onto the Denton route to free up paths. 4 platforms and 2 tracks for a short section is sufficient especially when the other 2 could be used some of the time when services are running late etc.

That could be a handy local service for that part of Manchester / Stockport / Tameside, but wouldn't half be a drag for anything longer-distance

It would for that reason it would need a significant upgrade i.e. relaying and doubling track and depending on the services, electrification. Probably the best option would be diverting one of the two Buxton services first to free up one path into Piccadilly for a 3rd express Sheffield service.
 
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Foxcover

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Sending trains via Denton is very difficult. In particular northbounds have to do a right turn at Heaton Norris across both Up tracks, so if things aren't running to course the signaller has the choice of stopping trains on one or both Up tracks or delaying whatever Down train is stuck behind. Bredbury and Philips Park doesn't have this sort of problem but the approach to Victoria by that route must be far slower than getting into Piccadilly.

Just re timings for Sheffield to Manchester Victoria, in the late ‘80s I remember using all three routes out of Manchester on Nottingham or boat trains (Phillips Park, Guide Bridge and via Slade Lane).

Before the Hazel Grove Chord was built in ‘86, in 85/6 trains from north of Manchester (eg The European from Scotland-Harwich) would travel via Victoria, Phillips Park and New Mills to the Hope Valley Line. Journey time from memory was about 1hr 10 to Sheffield, slower than Piccadilly which was about 55 minutes at that time. Remember that would be a 47+10 snaking around the Park curves so sprinters/185s would be a bit quicker.

After the Hazel Grove Chord but before the Windsor Link in 1988/9, similar trains usually went from Victoria via Ashton Moss, Guide Bridge and Stockport - again from memory (I wish I still had that timetable!) I think the North West Dane from Blackpool to Harwich used to leave Victoria at 0843 and get to Stockport at 0906, so 25 mins-30 mins. It was certainly a long way around. I think around that time Phillips Park to Ashburys went freight-only. Then the Windsor Link was built and everything came in that way and through Slade Lane to Stockport.

Interesting thought though about how Ashburys/Phillips Park/Victoria might be a way of routing an additional hourly Hope Valley if the core route problems could be overcome, without adding to the Piccadilly and/or Castlefield mix, especially if you continued it north to eg Preston and kept it away from the main problem altogether.
 
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CaptainHaddock

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I'm disappointed that no-one has said "reopen the Woodhead line" yet on this thread!
 

apk55

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I would like to some trains going direct from Manchester direct to the East Midlands missing Sheffield, probably run as a most stations Manchester to London St Pancras service. As it stands it typically involves a messy change (cross footbridge) at Sheffield and at least a half hour time penalty. I can not believe there is little demand for travel from places such as Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Kettering, Market Harborough etc to Manchester/North west.
 

edwin_m

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Just re timings for Sheffield to Manchester Victoria, in the late ‘80s I remember using all three routes out of Manchester on Nottingham or boat trains (Phillips Park, Guide Bridge and via Slade Lane).

Before the Hazel Grove Chord was built in ‘86, in 85/6 trains from north of Manchester (eg The European from Scotland-Harwich) would travel via Victoria, Phillips Park and New Mills to the Hope Valley Line. Journey time from memory was about 1hr 10 to Sheffield, slower than Piccadilly which was about 55 minutes at that time. Remember that would be a 47+10 snaking around the Park curves so sprinters/185s would be a bit quicker.

After the Hazel Grove Chord but before the Windsor Link in 1988/9, similar trains usually went from Victoria via Ashton Moss, Guide Bridge and Stockport - again from memory (I wish I still had that timetable!) I think the North West Dane from Blackpool to Harwich used to leave Victoria at 0843 and get to Stockport at 0906, so 25 mins-30 mins. It was certainly a long way around. I think around that time Phillips Park to Ashburys went freight-only. Then the Windsor Link was built and everything came in that way and through Slade Lane to Stockport.

Interesting thought though about how Ashburys/Phillips Park/Victoria might be a way of routing an additional hourly Hope Valley if the core route problems could be overcome, without adding to the Piccadilly and/or Castlefield mix, especially if you continued it north to eg Preston and kept it away from the main problem altogether.
Even if things have speeded up a little with Sprinters and line speed improvements, this shows that Stockport to Victoria would take at least twice as long via Denton as it does to Piccadilly via the current route. Only passengers with onward connections from Victoria not easily made at Piccadilly, or those with origins/destinations very close to Victoria, would find a direct train to Victoria quicker than going via Piccadilly. I suggest this is a small minority of the total passengers from Stockport and beyond.

If going via Victoria, continuing towards Preston is operationally more difficult than continuing towards Liverpool, because the trains would have to cross between the southern and the northern pair of tracks somewhere between Miles Platting and Salford Central. The Calder Valley Ordsall Curve trains have to cross the other way on the same stretch.
 

Altfish

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I would like to some trains going direct from Manchester direct to the East Midlands missing Sheffield, probably run as a most stations Manchester to London St Pancras service. As it stands it typically involves a messy change (cross footbridge) at Sheffield and at least a half hour time penalty. I can not believe there is little demand for travel from places such as Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Kettering, Market Harborough etc to Manchester/North west.
In my experience of using the EML service, 80% + get off at Sheffield, it is the main money earner (along with Manchester) on the route.
 

DanTrain

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In my experience of using the EML service, 80% + get off at Sheffield, it is the main money earner (along with Manchester) on the route.
I would like to some trains going direct from Manchester direct to the East Midlands missing Sheffield, probably run as a most stations Manchester to London St Pancras service. As it stands it typically involves a messy change (cross footbridge) at Sheffield and at least a half hour time penalty. I can not believe there is little demand for travel from places such as Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Kettering, Market Harborough etc to Manchester/North west.

Exactly, and how much demand really is there from Manchester to Derby (can be done via Stoke anyway), Kettering, Leicester, Wellingborough and Market Harbrough? It’s only a 20 min penalty to Sheffield, and there are same platform connections at Chesterfield. There aren’t enough paths to have a train over Dore South Curve, Sheffield needs all the trains it can get to Manchester, taking up vital paths on the HVL and MML is just silly. Talk to me again when Dore has a platform on the South Curve and a tram connection to Sheffield!
 

Chester1

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Just re timings for Sheffield to Manchester Victoria, in the late ‘80s I remember using all three routes out of Manchester on Nottingham or boat trains (Phillips Park, Guide Bridge and via Slade Lane).

Before the Hazel Grove Chord was built in ‘86, in 85/6 trains from north of Manchester (eg The European from Scotland-Harwich) would travel via Victoria, Phillips Park and New Mills to the Hope Valley Line. Journey time from memory was about 1hr 10 to Sheffield, slower than Piccadilly which was about 55 minutes at that time. Remember that would be a 47+10 snaking around the Park curves so sprinters/185s would be a bit quicker.

After the Hazel Grove Chord but before the Windsor Link in 1988/9, similar trains usually went from Victoria via Ashton Moss, Guide Bridge and Stockport - again from memory (I wish I still had that timetable!) I think the North West Dane from Blackpool to Harwich used to leave Victoria at 0843 and get to Stockport at 0906, so 25 mins-30 mins. It was certainly a long way around. I think around that time Phillips Park to Ashburys went freight-only. Then the Windsor Link was built and everything came in that way and through Slade Lane to Stockport.

Interesting thought though about how Ashburys/Phillips Park/Victoria might be a way of routing an additional hourly Hope Valley if the core route problems could be overcome, without adding to the Piccadilly and/or Castlefield mix, especially if you continued it north to eg Preston and kept it away from the main problem altogether.

That doesn't surprise, during engineering diversions I think its 65 minutes from Piccadilly to Sheffield although its a very padded timetable. Any diversion would need to be after a line speed upgrade which might be tricky on the New Mills route, hence my suggestion for remodeling Stockport Station and redoubling + relaying the line through Denton. If one of the two Buxton services switched then a journey time of 1 hour would be plausible by omitting stops at Woodsmoor and Davenport and not stopping at Reddish South or Denton. That would free up paths for an extra hourly Piccadilly-Stockport-Sheffield express service. In addition to your point about Preston, Liverpool would be another good option. Sheffield-Lime Street would probably be slightly faster via Victoria because the Chat Moss route is 15 minutes faster than the CLC.
 

apk55

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Exactly, and how much demand really is there from Manchester to Derby (can be done via Stoke anyway), Kettering, Leicester, Wellingborough and Market Harbrough? It’s only a 20 min penalty to Sheffield, and there are same platform connections at Chesterfield. There aren’t enough paths to have a train over Dore South Curve, Sheffield needs all the trains it can get to Manchester, taking up vital paths on the HVL and MML is just silly. Talk to me again when Dore has a platform on the South Curve and a tram connection to Sheffield!
All of the alternative routs from Manchester to East midlands involve changing trains at least once, either via Stoke or Nuneaton with the possibilities of missed connections. Nothing more infuriating than passing a Manchester train when approaching Sheffield. With a slow and messy journey I am not surprised that demand is low.
 

duffield

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1 TPH Leicester/Derby to Manchester avoiding Sheffield would probably make sense from a passenger point of view if the paths were available, since both already have 2TPH to Sheffield (but it sounds like there isn't the capacity).
 

Ships

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I have a lot of sympathy that improvements aren't forthcoming on the route as it is one that I find very useful. Certainly double track through Dore needs to happen.

That said, I do believe that some of the increasing stone traffic should help to make a case to re-instate the main line to Derby through Bakewell.

Why? None of it would be going in that direction.
 

Chester1

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Why? None of it would be going in that direction.

Its a personal wish of his. Personally I cannot see the logic when the Hope Valley route could be easily upgraded to support much more traffic.
 

DanTrain

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1 TPH Leicester/Derby to Manchester avoiding Sheffield would probably make sense from a passenger point of view if the paths were available, since both already have 2TPH to Sheffield (but it sounds like there isn't the capacity).
But Manchester - Leeds, Manchester - Liverpool, Sheffield - Leeds all have 4 or 5 tph, why should 2tph suddenly suffice for Manchester to Sheffield when those two cities have the worst road connection of any above pairing?
 

furnessvale

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Why? None of it would be going in that direction.
A quick check on RTT for today shows 27 freight paths which could make use of a reopened Buxton-Matlock line relieving the Hope Valley route. ALL of the 27 would incur less mileage using the Matlock line.

Admittedly, many of these paths are shown as cancelled but presumably, even on the Hope Valley line, provision has to be made in the timetable in case they run. A more detailed check I made some time ago indicated at least 10 actual trains daily would use a reopened quarries to Matlock line as opposed to theoretical paths.
 

DanTrain

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All of the alternative routs from Manchester to East midlands involve changing trains at least once, either via Stoke or Nuneaton with the possibilities of missed connections. Nothing more infuriating than passing a Manchester train when approaching Sheffield. With a slow and messy journey I am not surprised that demand is low.
Surely the same could be said about say Norwich to Corby or Lincoln to Bradford? That doesn’t mean we should immediately introduce a direct service at the expense of connections between two major cities? If the Hope Valley had 3 trains per hour, the chance of having a long wait in Sheffield is therefore reduced as well?
 

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